AARC

[Hamiltonf]

On 2004-12-24 06:04:00, Anonymous wrote:

"What an altruist and idealist you are! but go into action oh defender of the rights of others? No, just sling mud, slander a successful propram by calling it a cult, and try to belittle their success by talking about how they have only graduated 23 families a year on average. But your analogy is correct. Tilting at windmills is bang on. Except you don't have the courage to even saddle up.Stay in your ivory tower an hurl insults. Its much safer. I just pray your grandchildren never show up with a drug problem, and after being taught moderated usage at a government run day program are in real trouble, treatment resistent and victim to drugs like meth and coke. I guess we would see how high and mighty you are then.



Merry Christmas!"

and just as a point of emphasis from the article quoted:
Perhaps the most telling comment Schaler makes on the "disease model" comes during his first references to Alcoholics Anonymous, whose Twelve Step Program is the basis for almost all of the "drug treatment" programs into which local, state and federal governments in this country pour taxpayers' money. Alcoholics Anonymous, he maintains, is nothing more nor less than a "religious cult."
Q.E.D.[ This Message was edited by: Hamiltonf on 2004-12-24 12:00 ]

[Hamiltonf]

On 2004-12-24 12:00:00, Hamiltonf wrote:

"

On 2004-12-24 06:04:00, Anonymous wrote:



"What an altruist and idealist you are! but go into action oh defender of the rights of others? No, just sling mud, slander a successful propram by calling it a cult, and try to belittle their success by talking about how they have only graduated 23 families a year on average. But your analogy is correct. Tilting at windmills is bang on. Except you don't have the courage to even saddle up.Stay in your ivory tower an hurl insults. Its much safer. I just pray your grandchildren never show up with a drug problem, and after being taught moderated usage at a government run day program are in real trouble, treatment resistent and victim to drugs like meth and coke. I guess we would see how high and mighty you are then.







Merry Christmas!"

and just as a point of emphasis from the article quoted:

Perhaps the most telling comment Schaler makes on the "disease model" comes during his first references to Alcoholics Anonymous, whose Twelve Step Program is the basis for almost all of the "drug treatment" programs into which local, state and federal governments in this country pour taxpayers' money. Alcoholics Anonymous, he maintains, is nothing more nor less than a "religious cult."

Q.E.D.[ This Message was edited by: Hamiltonf on 2004-12-24 12:00 ]"

and so is AARC

[Anonymous]

"But really. Destroying a personality to save it leaves it distorted and unable to deal with real life."

Excuse me? I know dozens of the people who have been through AARC and hundreds who are in recovery, and they have the most vibrant, interesting, and humerous personalities. How dare you. As far as my insulting anyone, you are mistaken. and I absolutely do not insist on anyone but myself abstaining. I want nothing between myself and life. If I had an allergy to nuts, I would stay away from them. Drugs and alcohol affect me negatively - why would I want to use the moderately? I deal with life just fine. My friends in recovery supportsed me through the deaths of both parents, among other trials, and I gratefully return the favor.

[Anonymous]

So this is why millions of sensible, intelligent, independent people who have a drinking problem no longer drink - with the help of AA and AA related treatment programs. I just attended a breakfast meeting where 190 sober alcoholics are able to celebrate christmas with their families.
Among the celebrants
- and Order of Canada recipient
- a psychiatrist
- several heads of large corporations
- a priest

Many "psychologists" who have taught at ivy league schools have claimed to have successful alternatives for addicted people. So where are the results? Any academic can write a book and claim to be an expert. Lots of addicts are looking for an easier way - that is because AA is hard. It requires some degree of commitment, character and willingness to be honest. Offer an addict a pill or some course to be cured and they will likely go for it. and more than likely iy won't work. At least that is my personal experience.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-24 12:13:00, Anonymous wrote:

"So this is why millions of sensible, intelligent, independent people who have a drinking problem no longer drink - with the help of AA and AA related treatment programs. I just attended a breakfast meeting where 190 sober alcoholics are able to celebrate christmas with their families.

Among the celebrants

- and Order of Canada recipient

- a psychiatrist

- several heads of large corporations

- a priest



Many "psychologists" who have taught at ivy league schools have claimed to have successful alternatives for addicted people. So where are the results? Any academic can write a book and claim to be an expert. Lots of addicts are looking for an easier way - that is because AA is hard. It requires some degree of commitment, character and willingness to be honest. Offer an addict a pill or some course to be cured and they will likely go for it. and more than likely iy won't work. At least that is my personal experience. "

What a load of self-righteous claptrap. I was warned 30 years ago by an AA member that I was headed on a "downward spiral".  I wasn't.  So.     Are you the one with "personal experience" for whom it didn't work?
Where are the results of the N. American experience?  Mostly languishing in jails.  Obviously you haven't read the science.   And psychiatrists are among the worst offenders

[Anonymous]

If you've caused a car accident and somebody tells you that you therefore need to never leave the house so you don't ever do it again and you find that it works; does that mean stepping outside of the house will mean you'll "relapse" and cause an accident again? Do you say to yourself "Sure other bad drivers leave the house again but I never see them so they're probably all dead or just waiting until they cause another one someday."

Of course the arguement of whether or not AA works has nothing to do with AARC because it is not a meeting where people choose freely to attend and come and go as they please using the program the way that feels right to them. Nor is AARC a place for people who have proven to have addictions or an allergy to alcohol.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-24 20:28:00, Anonymous wrote:

"If you've caused a car accident and somebody tells you that you therefore need to never leave the house so you don't ever do it again and you find that it works; does that mean stepping outside of the house will mean you'll "relapse" and cause an accident again? Do you say to yourself "Sure other bad drivers leave the house again but I never see them so they're probably all dead or just waiting until they cause another one someday."



Of course the arguement of whether or not AA works has nothing to do with AARC because it is not a meeting where people choose freely to attend and come and go as they please using the program the way that feels right to them. Nor is AARC a place for people who have proven to have addictions or an allergy to alcohol."

So what is AARC a place for?  I don't understand

[Anonymous]

It's a place for locking up and making money off of kids who's parents don't know how to deal with them.

Some kids are normal kids and others have more troubles but are still "normal" in the long run. Few are actual addicts who need to be put in a detox facility and probably none are actual alcoholics.

[Hamiltonf]

On 2004-12-24 12:03:00, Anonymous wrote:

" "But really. Destroying a personality to save it leaves it distorted and unable to deal with real life."



Excuse me? I know dozens of the people who have been through AARC and hundreds who are in recovery, and they have the most vibrant, interesting, and humerous personalities. How dare you. As far as my insulting anyone, you are mistaken. and I absolutely do not insist on anyone but myself abstaining. I want nothing between myself and life. If I had an allergy to nuts, I would stay away from them. Drugs and alcohol affect me negatively - why would I want to use them moderately? I deal with life just fine. My friends in recovery supportsed me through the deaths of both parents, among other trials, and I gratefully return the favor. "

The reason I dare is this, if you cared to read (and comprehend) the article...
"What is addiction?" ... activists and writers in the Temperance Movement ... began speaking of addiction as ...a disease, from which the addict was suffering....

(there is no) scientific evidence to support this new claim, but ... The newly invented medical language grew to be accepted as fact."

...  Addiction is... not listed in standard pathology textbooks."

". . . diseases are medical conditions...(For example)... Unlike addiction, syphilis is a disease that can be diagnosed in a corpse."

Well, then, is addiction a mental disease?... They would conceivably fit the functional disorder category but probably would be subordinated to one of the established [functional] disorders such as discouragement or anxiety." ....But ...they are diseases only in a metaphorical sense."....

This is why Alcoholics Anonymous,... is nothing more nor less than a "religious cult." and ...it is ineffective....  One treatment tends to be just about as effective as any other treatment, which is just about as effective as no treatment at all."....

Drugs don't cause addiction,... addiction doesn't mean you can't control your behavior. You can always control your own behavior. Drugs are inanimate objects. They have no will or power of their own....
People use legal and illegal drugs like Prozac and heroin, to avoid coping with their lives. The reasons people avoid coping with their lives may be judged good or bad. Addiction is the expression of a person's values. Therefore, whenever we talk or write about addiction we are dealing with an ethical issue, not a medical one. Addiction is not a disease, nor is addiction a public health problem. Addiction is a choice."
--------------------------------------------------------
You say " Drugs and alcohol affect me negatively - why would I want to use them moderately?"
So what you are saying is that you have an allergy?  
If drugs and alcohol affect you negatively, why would you want to make the choice to use an allergen?  "I deal with life just fine." Why would you need AARC or AA or Synanon or any such cult to help you?  It sounds to me like you have replaced one drug with another..  (religion is the opiate of the masses)  If that's your choice, that's fine, and as another poster stated,  AA and NARC are often freely entered by consenting adults"  (with the exception of those under coercion from the State)  Statistically, no more people "succeed" in these cults than would "succeed" on their own.
You say    "My friends in recovery supportsed me through the deaths of both parents, among other trials, and I gratefully return the favor."
That's fine if it works for you.  But don't impose your view of what works on kids.  
And finally, learn to cope.  You really do not need AA or any such if you are allergic to those things, because you will choose not to use anyway, won't you?
Or are you addicted to "supports"?  (recognizing, of course, that those who may have been victims of AARC may need supports while they learn to regain their self concept and withdraw from their PTSD)
 ::cheers::
Enjoy your Xmas

[Anonymous]

In the real world people cope by going through  hard times by going to their friends or family, and taking time to do things for themselves that they know have helped them in the past. In 12 step programs people preach that you need to go to more meetings. In AARC kids are taught that they aren't normal people and that they can't survive in the real world and that real world people won't "call you on your bullshit" so they will "enable you" and you will eventually die if you go to these normal people for help. Many young AARC grads get older and step away from AARC but keep going to meetings and then as they mature they look around them and realize that they're making friends with "normal" people on the "outside" and that maybe they don't need that 12 step program to lead a normal life.

Some people do have a lifelong struggle with alcoholism and need therapy and support. I think AA would be more effective if they stopped trying to protect their steps and books from the ever terrifying "change" and instead modernized it a bit and made the groups more about supporting one another than making speeches. When people come to a 12 step meeting during a vulnerable time in their life they are usually just looking for someone to talk to who will relate to them and keep their secret. Instead they enter a room where people have 1 way conversations and blabber about themselves.

[Anonymous]

"But don't impose your view of what works on kids. "
 
And what are you doing?

"learn to cope"

I have quite nicely. I attend 1 hour of AA per week, and am happy successful and pretty normal. No "PTSD" here.

"Or are you addicted to "supports"? (recognizing, of course, that those who may have been victims of AARC may need supports while they learn to regain their self concept and withdraw from their PTSD)"

That is the biggest oxymoron I have come across on this site.

"Drugs are inanimate objects." so are guns, knives, poison, explosives etc. Hand 'em all out to children, after all inanimate objects don't hurt anyone. And of course children make excellent decisions about such inanmimate objects

And finally, what expertise do you have? Have you had a drug or alcohol problem? I speak only of my own experience, personally. You are offering no solutions, just pontificating with comments like "learn to cope". Sounds a lot like "you are weak, just stop using". That has probably killed more addicts than every other piece of advice combined.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-26 10:26:00, Anonymous wrote:

""But don't impose your view of what works on kids. "

 
And what are you doing?



"learn to cope"



I have quite nicely. I attend 1 hour of AA per week, and am happy successful and pretty normal. No "PTSD" here.



"Or are you addicted to "supports"? (recognizing, of course, that those who may have been victims of AARC may need supports while they learn to regain their self concept and withdraw from their PTSD)"



That is the biggest oxymoron I have come across on this site.



"Drugs are inanimate objects." so are guns, knives, poison, explosives etc. Hand 'em all out to children, after all inanimate objects don't hurt anyone. And of course children make excellent decisions about such inanmimate objects



And finally, what expertise do you have? Have you had a drug or alcohol problem? I speak only of my own experience, personally. You are offering no solutions, just pontificating with comments like "learn to cope". Sounds a lot like "you are weak, just stop using". That has probably killed more addicts than every other piece of advice combined."

You assume, of course, that kids being taken into AARC are addicts, and if it were not for AARC they would be deadinthegutterorinjail.
What has probably killed more addicts than every other piece of advice combined is prohibition and the war on drugs.  In England from the 1920s until Thatcher adopted Reagan's War on Drugs, there were NO DEATHS from Heroin addiction because a program had been set up where addicts could register and get maintenance injections.  After Thatcher stopped it there were 300 deaths in the first year and it has been steadily escalating since.  You might argue that's false logic, "post hoc, ergo proctor hoc" but that is the very same argument used by the drug warriors to justify labelling marijuana the gateway drug... But there are millions more deaths caused each year caused by cigarettes than are caused by all other illicit drugs combined.
But we're not talking about AA here we are talking about AARC But the difference between mainland Europe and N. America wrt alcohol and children is significant.  When I was 15 I visited Austria  and we schoolboys thought it was a big deal to be able to go into an inn and drink wine, because in England the age was 18.  In most of the US the age is 21.  The reality is that Europe's alcoholism rate is no higher than N. America's (England had had it's Prohibition too and they now have soccer hooligans whose parents never taught them how to handle their liquor.  In Dicken's time, with bathtub gin the underclass with no hope could get "drunk for a penny, dead drunk for tuppence")
My young Italian hairdresser relates how she grew up by a vineyard her father owned in Italy and was  surrounded by a culture that respected moderation in drinking.  She was amazed at her young friends here for whom it ws a "big deal" to go out and get blasted each weekend.
When prohibition reared its ugly head in N. America , it destroyed  viniculture in the Italian community and launched the biggest wave of organized crime in US history.  
When I arrived in Alberta in 1965, some of the after-effects were still evident.  "ladies and escorts" "men only"  Kids in cars in back lanes drinking Jack Daniels out of brown paper bags.  The beer slinging in local pubs with the limit on the size of the glass so that each order was for two glasses rather than one.  And going to parties where the  taxi driver stops the car at the town limits and brings a brown paper bag from the trunk.  Now that was weird.
Oh yes, I've partied, and some of the people I've partied with realised that they had better quit altogether.  But NONE went into AA because they did not need to give in to a higher power.  So fine, if you need the supports, feel free.  But the kids post AARC need support to get over the demeaning  personality disintegration that they have been subjected to .  That's what this site is about.  Support for the after-effects of cult-treatment

So you think you've learned to cope quite nicely?     Does that mean you can take a glass of wine or two with a meal, or a beer, or two and not go on a bender?  If you can truly cope, you have nothing to fear and do not need any higher power to prevent you "falling off the wagon".  

If you cannot practice the "Aristotelean Mean", I guess, so be it.  

Guns are made to kill, knives, poisons and explosives have victims when other directed.  I can commit suicide with a gun, a knife, a poison or an explosive, but it is not a crime to do so.  Only when I do unto others would it be a crime.  If I  was really really depressed I might want to kill myself slowly by repeatedly drinking myself into oblivion.  But that's not illegal either.  If I wanted to alter my consciousness by using a drug   , that should not be a crime either.  It would be my choice and as long as I do not do anything to others, I should be free to choose my poison. As an adult!
But kids subject to AARC are not given the truth and often, if being self-destructive are never properly diagnosed.  
Does anybody really communicate with these kids to discover what is really going on with them?  I really doubt it from what I've seen of "recovering Crystal"    


          ::cheers::  ::cheers::

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-24 12:13:00, Anonymous wrote:

"So this is why millions of sensible, intelligent, independent people who have a drinking problem no longer drink - with the help of AA and AA related treatment programs. I just attended a breakfast meeting where 190 sober alcoholics are able to celebrate christmas with their families.

Among the celebrants

- and Order of Canada recipient

- a psychiatrist

- several heads of large corporations

- a priest



Many "psychologists" who have taught at ivy league schools have claimed to have successful alternatives for addicted people. So where are the results? Any academic can write a book and claim to be an expert. Lots of addicts are looking for an easier way - that is because AA is hard. It requires some degree of commitment, character and willingness to be honest. Offer an addict a pill or some course to be cured and they will likely go for it. and more than likely iy won't work. At least that is my personal experience. "

I refer you to my life counselors  ::rocker:: :

http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/topics.do?topic=12

Please watch the video preview under their picture on the right hand side.  It may open your eyes. :wave:

[Anonymous]

Not available in Canada, you say:
We at Showtime Online express our apologies; however, these pages are intended for access only from within the United States.

[Antigen]

On 2004-12-26 21:36:00, Anonymous wrote:

Does anybody really communicate with these kids to discover what is really going on with them? I really doubt it from what I've seen of "recovering Crystal"

Thing is, they really and truely believe that they do. They determine (based on what the parents say and their rather wild assumptions about all teenagers) that they know just exactly what the kid is thinking, feeling and doing when no one's looking. That's pretty easy. What's the formal name of the scam when you make generalized gueses and then claim telepathy? That's the trick. Then they simply "communicate" this to the kid by whatever means and for however long it takes until the kid believes it too.

Once that's done (More or less similar to a primary diagnosis), then it's all very simple. The problem is drugs (all problems derive from drugs, of course) and the solution is the Program. No other problem is relavent or important and no other solution ever need be sought. Simple and sweet as that good old Mountain Dew. Except, of course, for the kid who has to scrupulously hide any and all manifestation of any kind of problem in order to avoid more of the cure.

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
--Philosopher, Blaise Pascal