Need help from RMA staff

[Anonymous]

Have you read any of these posts??!!!  What are we going to say? Yes, one year of mental and verbal abuse and manipulation of parents and kids is OK?  One year of absolutely sham academics is OK? One year of mind numbing cultish brainwash is OK? One year of BS therapy by non-accredited primal screamers is OK? Give me a break!!

Maybe your son turned out great but that is a real credit to HIM.

[ottawa5]

To Mr./Ms. Anonymous--

Yes, I have "read any of the the posts", why else would I make my inquiry here?

And thanks for your input, whoever you are, in spite of the tone of your remarks; but surely you realize that you do not necessarily represent the whole spectrum of experiences of those who have been at RMA, or anywhere else, for that matter.  While I appreciate your comments, I would also like to hear from others, specifically those who were at RMA in the later part of the 1990's, in particular on Team Eclipse.

I am interested in hearing different accounts from a  variety of people who were there in that time and context.  I want to hear about what being there meant to different people, absent the supposition that it had to be good, or that it had to be terrible: what helped them and what hurt them in the program?  

Hope it doesn't disturb you too much that people may have different views on these matters. If that is at odds with some kind of pre-suppositions that you assume to be universal, well, that's just one of those things that can happen when people have free will.

And, yes, my son is doing very well; in spite of the exasperation that your post suggests, it's nice of you to note that. I agree that this is indeed a credit to who he is; as well, it seems obvious that his functioning is a result of the opportunities that have come into his life, and what he has chosen to do with them.

My interest is in gaining a better understanding of what sort of experiences can help a person grow to his or her full potentia;.  This is the reason for my question.

[shanlea]

First, I wasn't exasperated by your son's progress at all. I have two small children and I'm happy every time I hear of a parent with a well-adjusted child.  I just don't credit CEDU with all of it.

Second, I do appreciate that there are many other perspectives on the program.  But you can't argue with lack of credentials or bad academia (some were padded by the way so they could pass muster later).  You  certainly can't argue with the verbal and mental abuse these raps and propheets engendered, or that ex-staff are in fear of this place. Or that students were traine dto bully and spy... that people with REAL disorders of anxiety, ADD, and depression were given the exact "treatment" to exacerbate the condition.  You can't really argue that CEDU was founded by a nut job on synonon principles.  YOu can't really argue that CEDU didn't unnnecessarily restrict you from your family and isolate you further by shutting down the real world so all the world is a CEDU play.

Nope, I don't understand your perspective. Is it OK for others to have that much control over your kid and BS you to keep you from pulling him out?

I've read from a mixed site that this girl credits CEDU for saving her and she is doing the same stuff she always did pre-CEDU.  I'm also reading many people who caame out of CEDU unprepared to deal with real life and real academics.  THAT IS WHAT CEDU SHOULD BE DOING!! Just screaming at you breaking you down in propheets and calling you a slut because you had sex with one guy is not "preparing you for the real world.   In fact, my team leaders couldn't even keep the stories straight. I was always getting reemed for stuff that didn't happen. In one case, my family head who was an admitted coke addict found out I experimented with drugs and that was it! I was now a coke addict. I don't think he even believed it but he used that fear to keep my parents from pulling me out.  THe funny thing was that I EASILY gave it up months before CEDU and have never been tempted to go back.  My vices are legal: pizza and cupcakes!

Anyway, it is difficult for me to see your sincerity and digging for pearls cast before swine.

[ottawa5]

It isn't a big problem for me if you "can't see my sincerity", I don't know you and you don't know me, beyond a few internet exchanges.  But I do appreciate your comments--I'm here for the information, more or less, which I take at face value as representing a specific person's experience. So thanks.

On the basis of what I currently believe, I could actually argue with some (though not all of your criticisms of CEDU) but what would that accomplish? You sound pretty entrenched in your own experience and I'm guessing that your energy does not lie with understanding someone else's at the moment.  

I agree with you fully that the fact that a child is doing well has to do with more than any one program, circumstance, etc. in his or her life. You are lucky to be that insightful when your own kids are small--I certainly wasn't and many mothers I know aren't.

I'd appreciate any particular observations (again positive or negative) from others, in general and especially involving the RMA/Team Eclipse/1990's experience.  My most central interest is the difference that particular staff interactions made in eventual outcome.

[Anonymous]

I started to write a detailed argument on how you could still support a school that has integrity issues on every level, along with bad therapy and academics but I realized that after everything already written you seem pretty "entrenched" in your beliefs.

[Anonymous]

Well, maybe not quite the opposite: but if you mean by "entrenched" unwilling to consider changing my beliefs if the evidence dictates it,you are dead wrong.

I am trained as a scientist, and so I do strive to look at the facts of a situation, even when the facts are unclear, ambiguous, or difficult to come by. It is true that some of the facts that I have at hand (my own experiences, those of a number of others who I know well) presently convince me that there have been, at least for some, beneficial aspects to the emotional growth/CEDU program. Some of the information that I have heard at this site, and elsewhere, convinces me that there have also been clear problems within these programs, and that these programs have, at the very least, been useless for some people.

It occurs to me that the differences in how various participants (both parents and children) have ended up feeling about the overall experience, may be based on some real, potentially knowable differences. There may be differences either in terms of individual personality structure and personal outlook, or in terms of specific events and interactions that happened to any given person during his or her stay at one of these schools. There may, for example, be some very positive things going on in a certain program, as well as some useless or even detrimental things: these are good things to clarify, especially in terms of developing new programs.

I hope you can see that it would be unreasonable of me to just disregard part of what I know (ie, that some people feel that they benefited from these programs) simply because some people feel that they did not.  One has to apply some degree of critical thinking to sorting out what is going on when such differences exist---I just think it is too easy to define everyone who had good experiences as brainwashed, or mistaken in what they attribute to their good outcome.

So, am I "entrenched", as in unwilling to change my hypothesis that the programs in question are doing some helpful things?  I don't believe so, if what evolves is that there are other explanations for the good outcomes that have occurred, I would have to reject the hypothesis that these programs are doing anything useful. As far as possible (and I do believe it is possible) I would like to find this out.

But by all means, if you think that further discussions on the subject are a waste of your time, don't let me bother you.  

At the same time, if others have comments on the CEDU experience (pro or con) especially in terms of staff interactions and especially (but not limited to) the RMA/Team Eclipse/1990's experience, I'd be grateful for the input.

[Anonymous]

I guess I know what I saw and that was rampant therapeutic, emotional, and mental abuse. Maybe some people got stronger for it.  I actually subliminated it for years.  Lots of people have nightmares and some form of PTSD 10, 15, 20 years later. (are you one of those people who would write them off as losers or wimps?) Some staff were well-meaning, many were sadistic bullies, some were caring people just trying to find themselves.  There are always the people who are willing to stick with abusive partners because of their other good traits.

[Anonymous]

Bullshit dude, I was at RMA in the early 90's. Team Eclipse was one of the fakest teams at RMA, and believe me, that is saying a lot. I actually believe that you think RMA was good for your kid, RMA churned out a lot of dysfunctional people, kiss-ass motherfuckers. That was the whole deal with RMA. I forgot what we used to call faker motherfuckers. Fool yourself all you want, CEDU was good for no one.It does not promote strong self image, indeed it teaches you how to be a proper bitch.....think about that.

[Anonymous]

I've had a bit of back and forth with the mother of agood son who attended.  My hypothesis is that whatever strength he got from the program does not override its many abuses and cult-control of your minds and family.  Also, from some ex staff posts, there seems to be rampant financial negligence and shady dealings.  Everything was smoke and mirrors.  Will you tell her of your experiences w/o rancor--just straight up, the good thebad the ugly because I've reached an impasse.  Thanks, Shanlea

[ottawa5]

Shanlea--I've been off for the last little while putting in hours for my clinical psychology internship and have had no time to check on this site until this evening.  

Imagine my surprise to find out that you have posted, more than once since I last checked, with the intention of getting people to respond to my earlier inquiries about the Eclipse/RMA  experience.

All this is good information, thanks for your interest.

I know that you like to post anonymously as well as with a recognizable identifier (ie Shanlea), but I tell you, after watching this site for a while, I have pretty well determined that I cannot put much credibility in posts that are not somehow ascribable to one particular person.  

It is not as if a name on the post gives me any specific information about the person providing the opinion---it is just that if I rely on "anonymous" posts how can I tell if these represent one person, posing as different people, or a legitimate collection of several people advocating a particular opinion?

I will bring what I have observed here to my son's attention, when the family is together this weekend, especially the responses that relate to Team Eclipse.  I intend to ask him for his opinion about the rather derogatory view that some (often anonymous) correspondents hold of that particular experience. Again, if he chooses to involve himself in these discussions, I will support him in that, as I will support him in choosing to not respond if that is his preference.

It seems kind of strange: I am perfectly willing to consider that the emotional growth school experience was, for reasons that are yet to be defined, negative for some people. Yet, at this site, I have not seen much interest in looking at why some adolescents do well after the CEDU experience, and go on to live happy, good lives, with positive memories surrounding the years spent in these schools.

I suppose that I could accept unquestioningly the point of view that the individuals who could be called CEDU success stories are brainwashed. Yet several of these people are known to me reasonably well and I see no sign of delusion or dysfunction in the ways (which are appropiately individualized) in which they have gone on to live their lives after CEDU.

Puzzling, but then life is sometimes like that--I am confident that patience and further information will help to clarify the situation.

[shanlea]

Yeah, I did post under anon and my user. Sorry for the confusion.  I understand it can cause  credibility problems.   Sometimes I get bit by the paranoia bug after reading some posts... I am feeling vulnerable because I am a single Mom of two small children...

As far as CEDU is concerned, it took me years to figure out why I had issues with the program.  I am definitely not blaming them because my life isn't perfect and I need a scapegoat. My experience was bad because I wasn't treated with integrity and honesty.  I actually left because of the mental abuse and bullying, but more important, I felt that I would be badgered until I had "facilitated breakthroughs" that would require me to lie about myself and my experiences.  I didn't go to CEDU because I was a liar so to have my whole story so twisted was repulsive to me and made it impossible to accept the therapy.  It is complicated.  I also felt there were too many kids there because their parents thought raising a kid was too tedious to them.  There were other kids I felt were downright dangerous.  

I believe many positive experiences are the result of achieving difficult tasks (for me it was all the physical labor, getting over my vanity, and finding I was not the fragile person I always thought. Because I never had to work hard at home, working hard and seeing I was good at it validated my work ethic.)  I felt the "therapeutic" aspects were synanon based mental torture.  I also question the insulation of CEDU.  In addition, parents are sold a bit of a distorted version of the school.  For example, parents only got glimpses of the propheets and some of their attendant exercises but not the total mental annihilation that we got.  

People who went through CEDU shared intense experiences they will unlikely ever share with any other group of people again.  Cedu experiences are built to do just that.  For some, that strong brotherhood and unique bond is unshakable.  

THe worst thing about CEDU was that they promoted bullies and delusional (if charismatic) gurus.  However, some of the other staff were very caring people.  (Others on this site might disagree with that.)

I will now stop wasting your time with my posts because I know you are interested in Team Eclipse stories.

[mikehunt]

On 2004-07-01 20:13:00, ottawa5 wrote:

"Shanlea--I've been off for the last little while putting in hours for my clinical psychology internship and have had no time to check on this site until this evening.  



Imagine my surprise to find out that you have posted, more than once since I last checked, with the intention of getting people to respond to my earlier inquiries about the Eclipse/RMA  experience.



All this is good information, thanks for your interest.



I know that you like to post anonymously as well as with a recognizable identifier (ie Shanlea), but I tell you, after watching this site for a while, I have pretty well determined that I cannot put much credibility in posts that are not somehow ascribable to one particular person.  



It is not as if a name on the post gives me any specific information about the person providing the opinion---it is just that if I rely on "anonymous" posts how can I tell if these represent one person, posing as different people, or a legitimate collection of several people advocating a particular opinion?



I will bring what I have observed here to my son's attention, when the family is together this weekend, especially the responses that relate to Team Eclipse.  I intend to ask him for his opinion about the rather derogatory view that some (often anonymous) correspondents hold of that particular experience. Again, if he chooses to involve himself in these discussions, I will support him in that, as I will support him in choosing to not respond if that is his preference.



It seems kind of strange: I am perfectly willing to consider that the emotional growth school experience was, for reasons that are yet to be defined, negative for some people. Yet, at this site, I have not seen much interest in looking at why some adolescents do well after the CEDU experience, and go on to live happy, good lives, with positive memories surrounding the years spent in these schools.



I suppose that I could accept unquestioningly the point of view that the individuals who could be called CEDU success stories are brainwashed. Yet several of these people are known to me reasonably well and I see no sign of delusion or dysfunction in the ways (which are appropiately individualized) in which they have gone on to live their lives after CEDU.



Puzzling, but then life is sometimes like that--I am confident that patience and further information will help to clarify the situation. "

here's what cedu does:  program children with their standards of morality and obedience.  i'd consider that brainwashing.

if you're going to start your own skool, at least advertise it properly (not pretending that it's all loving and nuturing) and don't manipulate the parents dishonestly.

[mikehunt]

by the way, as you can see, i'm totally not anon... i think that cedu is completely unethical (standardized approaches effect a small percentage of people, and this particular standardized approach tends to hurt more people than it helps.)  i'm all for ethical therapy.. my job is to draw the definitive line between the two.

[Hell on Wheels]

[ This Message was edited by: Hell on Wheels on 2004-07-07 19:27 ]

[Anonymous]

I had to respond finally: I went to RMA and graduated in Dec. 1990.
I am DEFINITLY fucked up from it. If the scientists and parents cannot understand such an off the cuff vulgarity as a description, it is because they cannot comprehend the amount of negative thinking behind it. For me, "Fucked Up" ten years later is in fact a terrific understatement.
   I have looked off and on for years for a community to talk to about my post RMA life and why it is the way it is. I don't really feel like I can talk to ANYONE about it because of the true and accurate account of the "fucking fake ass motherfuckers" would be the people from RMA while people who are not intimately knowledgeable about these programs and probably cannot be becuase they did not attend them AS STUDENTS. It is really huge to talk about and perfectly understand the flustered comments and tone of some of these responses.
     I have started to write about my experience and really will be active in moving on...finally. So. Check in with me...XB