Richard got some ink in the St. Pete Times

[ehm]

Leigh, I'm not being nasty, I'm just being blunt. Maybe it's the way you're taking it? Since you mention it though, isn?t telling me I'm trying to nail someone to a cross, a bit judgmental and nasty of you? Mike called your statement, ?crap.? Is he being nasty to you too, or simply speaking his mind?  I apologize if you took it that way, but it?s not like I?m sitting here angrily typing at you to spite you. We can agree to disagree, it?s our God given right.

Again, I'm not being nasty to you, and AGAIN, I'm not "passionately" defending anyone. I'm saying there?s no comparison, it was a bad choice of words, and I don't think it's helping. I am passionate, however, about the fact that it's an unfair comparison.  

Stop trying to point fingers, and just accept when someone disagrees with you.

[LeighBright]

Some examples of mean & nasty:

"Are you serious? Trying to draw a comparison between the two is just stupid."

"I guess if you want people to think that we're all a bunch of impulsive tongued nitwits than he was right on."

"Just sounds really opinionated and irrational of you."

"Why do you always sound like a total fanatic when you mention anything regarding Christianity?"

"Judgemental"

"Justifying to yourself why it's okay to judge another human being's pain." [Which actually, you are doing when you argue whether we've suffered more or less than these prisoners - AND when you criticize Richard for making the quote]

"If you want people to listen to you, you have to be credible."

"I'm not being nasty, I'm just being blunt. Maybe it's the way you're taking it?"

"Stop trying to point fingers and just accept when someone disagrees with you."

 :roll:

[ehm]

On 2004-05-18 18:03:00, Lezli wrote:
"I apologize if you took it that way, but it?s not like I?m sitting here angrily typing at you to spite you. We can agree to disagree, it?s our God given right."

[Anonymous]

"Hell no it isn't enough to go to war to liberate people from a madman because a certain class of people are abused. There are at least a dozen more just like Saddam in this world. Do you think we should go and invade all those countries as well?"

1)  ::puke::


2)  remind me again why we fought the Revolutionary War? Wasn't that over free-trade, taxes, and property rights? Yes, you're right. Better that people be brutalized than to live with the liberty you take for granted every day. By the way - it was YOUR kind of thinking that helped millions of Jews find their way to concentration camps & ovens before the Allies got involved and rescued them. But the U.S. KNEW what was going on over there YEARS before we stepped in. Or do you think that war was wrong too?
3) Yes I do think we should invade every country that brutalizes and oppresses their people - but that doesn't necessarily mean with soldiers.

[Verbatim]

First off how do you invade a country without soldiers? Because as far as I know, you can't invade a country without them. If you can, I'm sure the Defense Department would really like to know how.

While you're partly correct about the reasons for the Revolutionary war you're forgetting a few things there. Yes, it was over free-trade, taxes, and property rights. It was also about freedom. The ability to self govern and the ability to decide one's own fate. Most importantly it was a revolution. Not an invasion. That war started from within. It was fought by the people, not by some other country on behalf of the colonists. There is very little to compare between the Revolutionary war and the Iraq war.

By the way - it was YOUR kind of thinking that helped millions of Jews find their way to concentration camps & ovens before the Allies got involved and rescued them. But the U.S. KNEW what was going on over there YEARS before we stepped in.

Do you realize what you just said here? Read it carefully. You?re saying that thinking that war is wrong and that America shouldn't attack every country with civil rights issues is what  caused the Holocaust... I pretty much blame the Nazi's for that. Not America.

Are you saying that the Allies should have stepped in earlier to save the Jews? I think that's what you're saying (when you talk about the US knowing what was going on), but I just want to make sure. If that's the case then I whole-heartedly agree with you. Unfortunately if you know anything about history you know the impossibility of that. It would have been really hard for the Allies to have gone in and rescued the Jews any earlier than they did, what with the Nazi's invading all of Europe at the time. Finding out that something is wrong and being in a position to do something about it doesn't necessarily happen at the same time.

[Verbatim]

Back to the topic at hand, torture is torture. When is it justifiable to torture someone? Frankly I'm going to go out on a limb here and say never. Some say it maybe justifiable because they are terrorists, I say never. Some say "but they would slit our throats" I say never. Torture is another form of terrorism is it not? Are we willing to become what we are fighting against? Will that get us any nearer to peace? You can not fight against something that you also condone.

Not to mention that the assumptions being made that all of these people being tortured are terrorists. What if one of them isn't? Is it worth torturing one innocent man if we can get the information we need? What about two innocent men? How about three? A hundred? A thousand? What if the information gathered would save the lives of our troops? Would it be okay then?

No.

And I'll tell you why. Iraq is a sticky situation, we are not fighting the Iraqi military anymore. We are fighting the Iraqis themselves. We've invaded their country. Destroyed their way of life. Killed many of their people. All of this with only the promise that we're giving them a chance for a better future. Few of these people believe us. Hell, I wouldn't if I lived there. As long as can be remembered they've been ruled over with an iron fist by some despotic madman. One after another. That's the way it's always been. So I'm sure they're a little wary of whether or not we're telling the truth. So it's part of our job to show them that their trust in us is not misplaced. We are from completely differing cultures, it's going to be hard enough for us to get them to believe that we mean the best for them. But when you throw up pictures of American soldiers torturing Iraqis it destroys that trust. Suddenly we look not that much different than the psychopath we just dethroned. That not only makes our jobs more difficult, but it makes it more dangerous. How many Iraqis, do you think, were sitting on the fence as to whether America was an invading or a liberating force? I'll bet the terrorist recruitment got a big boost the day that those pictures went public. Because someone decided that torturing Iraqi prisoners was an acceptable thing to do, a lot of Americans are going to get killed. American soldiers and American civilians. Does that justify terrorism?

And far worse things have probably happened to those prisoners that we'll never see.

Was it worse than Straight? No one will ever be able to judge that.

[kpickle39]

Exactly!!  Gepolitical policies by governments is not the way to "liberate" oppressed people.  I believe we should do what we can to improve the standard of living for people in this world.  If we have to assist other countries economically then that I believe that is ok.    And no, my thinking isn't the same type of thinking that went on in pre war nazi.  The thinking that helped millions of JEWs to the concentration camps was primarily internal to Germany.  Pre-war Germany had lots of folks looking the other way.  How about reminding me again of why we went to war in Iraq?   To liberate folks?  Yeah right; that is like saying the State of Florida turned their heads on the abuse you and I suffered at straight because they were "saving our lives".   The State turned their head because it was economically expedient.   We invaded Iraq mainly beacuse it was thought to be in the USA's best interest economically (oil) by the neo-cons that run this country. (Neo-cons, now that is another subject entirely) I believe that went went to war for a number of reasons, maybe liberating people from oppression was 1 of the reasons.  But, I bet it was way down on the list.

So do you really think we should invade all those countries?   Do you think resouces and american lives grow on trees?  Who the heck do you think is gonna pay off the billions and billions and billions of dollars it is costing to just "rebuild" Iraq? Not you or me, but our children and grand kids.  Can you say debt?  This nation is fixin to get fucked.  The powers that be have stimulated the economy since Bush took over, they have given billions and billions and billions of dollars back to the richest americans, they have dramatically cut taxes, they are spending whats left like it is water and now we are in a war.   Inflation like the Carter days is a coming.

Do you have any draftable age children?   I do and I sure as hell don't want him off in some other country fighting a war to "americanize" the world.  I have no problems with assisting in a coup to get these dictators out; but not invasion by american boys and girls, who are usually no more than 19-22, black or a minority, or if they are white, they are usually from one of the southern states, they are generally poor or they are court ordered to serve by a judge (almost 25% of our GI's are criminals ordered to enter the military by the courts).

 

I could go on and on, but I gotta get to work.  

Mike    


[ This Message was edited by: kpickle39 on 2004-05-19 04:56 ]

[ehm]

"Justifying to yourself why it's okay to judge another human being's pain.[Which actually, you are doing when you argue whether we've suffered more or less than these prisoners - AND when you criticize Richard for making the quote."

No, I wasn't weighing Richards?s pain on a scales with the Iraqi?s pain, Leigh. (Isn't that God's job, by the way?) I'm protesting his attempt to create a fallacy. There?s no way he can prove his statement. It only does us harm. Spouting untruths such as this makes us all look like prevaricators. Irrational people who exaggerate the facts, to get the public?s attention, fanatics!

[LeighBright]

Okay verbatim -

a) You invade a country without soldiers with the utilization of spies and their allies. We call them the CIA.  :roll:
b)  Yes, the Revolutionary War was also about freedom - the same freedom that Iraqi's crave - and are entitled to as humans on this planet. And true - the Rev. War was fought within by the people - but they had help. Remember the French and the American Indian? They assisted the effort (although true - neither were "officially" at war with England). And last, I thought there was plenty to compare - and this is why I chose to do so.
c) Do you realize what I just said there? Read it carefully.  :razz:  I'm saying that having the attitude that attacking a country on behalf of the people who are being brutalized, oppressed & murdered because it "isn't our business" is the same attitude that our politicians had during that era. Furthermore, I'm not blaming America for what happened during the holocaust - I'm blaming them for knowing about it - and not doing anything - until they were forced to do something by the Japanese. (We only went after Germany because they were aligned with Japan).
d) Yes I am saying the allies should have stepped in earlier to save the Jews - as again, they knew about it multiple years earlier. In fact, a ship full of Jews tried to find safety here - and our government sent them back! How atrocious!
e) well yes - you probably have a point there. I suppose it is always easier to look back and say this or that should have been done and maybe you're right - maybe they really couldn't have done anything for the Jews sooner - and perhaps I'm just being jaded and biased toward our government for reasons I'm sure you understand. But it irritates me - knowing that they knew - and then dragged their feet. But that's so true, your last sentence. I suppose I'm just being harsh - believing the worse of the leaders of that time - when, for all I know, people could have been physically sick about not being able TO help sooner. I suppose that's something I should learn about a little more - before I speak up.

[Anonymous]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 731081.stm

[ehm]

The victims of Straight can no longer go "home."

We're talking about the difference between Iraq and the United States here. As adults now, it?s our responsibility to make out own homes. Besides, we did go to "homes" every single night. They may not have been a great home with great surroundings and great people, but it wasn't war prison.

I will never deny that our experiences in Straight were bad, and some horrific, but do you think any of those Iraqis get the choice as an adult to go to counseling or therapy now? Do certain victims have the choice, or freedom to take their abusers to court for millions of dollars? Do we live in a world that is crumbling around us, with death everywhere, and no order?

Not many of us had a good childhood/teenhood. For most of us, it was directly related to a place called Straight, Inc. Still, after Straight, we always had the freedom to grow, learn, and make choices for ourselves. Not all of us have the families we wanted, (or who wanted us) and a lot of us come from broken homes, but I wouldn't blame 100% of that on Straight, Inc. After all, isn't it up to our parents to investigate places like this before just dropping us off? Sure, Straight used strong, fear-manipulation tactics to get us in the front door, but ultimately wasn?t it our parents who threw us out of our homes to begin with? We weren't just arrested and thrown in prison. Our parents put us there.

I know the suicide numbers, and I know the suffering. I've been through it, and have lived to tell about it. I also know that I have my own home today, and I have my own family. I've moved on to let myself heal, and grow up. I?ve received years of therapy, and stopped making bad decisions. The way I see it, if Straight is still torturing you now, that?s something internal. Take a chance, move on. We?re nothing like the people in Iraq who may never know the difference.

[Fuck You Sembler & Ec]

That last statement is the biggest line from a movie I've ever heard.  The main point is down at the bottom of it.  "We?re nothing like the people in Iraq who may never know the difference".  Good for you sister.  Your experience with Straight before and after must have been a free ride compared to some.  

I remember the movie that whole post was taken from.  I remember I hated it cos it had nothing to do with reality and walked out of the theatre feeling cheated.

[GregLeclaire]

[GregLeclaire]

At least the Iraqis had the balls to not 7th step.7steppers should not comment here about anything,except to explain where they will kill themselves so that I can come and watch.Please Bradbury,go fuck yourself and all of your 7stepper butt buddies.

[Triumvirate]

::soapbox::  ::argue::  Gets Popcorn*