Author Topic: Re-educating from a danish viewpoint  (Read 2324 times)

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Offline Covergaard

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Re-educating from a danish viewpoint
« on: August 21, 2006, 04:37:13 AM »
We have no an industry in Denmark yet. Because we are a quite small country there is not many places where you can hide and mis-treat children without being discovered.

And our laws allows people to have sex from the age of 15 and buy alcohol from the age of 16. Still we have problems with drug mainly caused by the resently introduced age-limit of 16 regarding alcohol. Drugs are easier to obtain than alcohol when a person is 15. Alcohol are sold in shops with control. Drugs are sold on the street without control.

The age-limit is not a law against drinking from the age of 16. It is a law to ensure that the parents have knowledge of their childrens alcohol intake when they are 15 or younger. As a fact a lot of parents do buy alcohol to their children when they are 13 or older. Resent studies (2005) shows that about 57 % of all people in an age of 15 have been serious drunk at one time.

In Denmark, we believe in taking care of the problem at home. We have discovered that even stays in government controlled home can result in bad treatment of the childs. Just 4 months ago, it was discovered that a certain youth facility ordered children about 10 years to walk 10 kilometres alone in the night along a highway without adult presence as punishment.

We have also experienced that some people from the far east send their children back home, when the children do live as we other danes do and deny marriage to a fellow countrymen or women. Those children comes back totally unprepared to live in our society.

I personally do not se any difference between shipping a poor child away to a strict muslim society and shipping a poor child away to a "brat camp".

It is all about denying the child to live in a democracy and learning the child about both the dangers and the benefits of a free choice which is the basis of our way of living.

Troubled teens is also a question about when a the parenthood stops. Last week video of childs about 11-12 drinking and stripping in front of others childs were published. Some parents in a town not so far away from my home did not record where their children was during the night. So the children joined a publicly sponsered rave party (Yes, we have something like that), older children attended.

The message from both youth and officials were clear. The youth have to establish self-control and send younger children home from their party and prevent them from joining. The parents have to keep youth below 15 at home after 9 p.m.

It seems that a lot of the problems with troubled teens are that there is too much control and the abitions of the parents are too high. We all like our children to succeed but we also have to acknowledge that our children are exploiting during their upbringing.

I personally do hope that we also in the future can prevent the industry from establish themselves in Denmark. Solving problems at home in the family shoud be the way of doing it.
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Offline Oz girl

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Re-educating from a danish viewpoint
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2006, 07:00:31 AM »
Hey. i found this site which looks @ drinking age limits from around the world

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/LegalDrinkingAge.html
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline mbnh31782

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Re-educating from a danish viewpoint
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2006, 07:31:49 AM »
I've been to denmark and i was really impressed with the school system over there.  Starting early as kindergarten the kids learn how to be self sufficient.  Not in a bad way, but in a good way.  Anyhow bye. lol my brain is off
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Offline Covergaard

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Wrong data in the link
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2006, 07:59:58 AM »
In the link, it is stated that the legal age is 18. That is wrong. It is 16 and most parents buy the special ID-card necessary in order to buy alcohol as a delayed birthday present.

http://http://www.cphpost.dk/get/81973.html

As it says in the article the real drinking age have been raised since the 16 year limit was introduced. However, the cost have been an increase in drug use, which is a terrible price to pay.
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Offline Antigen

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Re: Re-educating from a danish viewpoint
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2006, 10:35:13 AM »
Quote from: ""Covergaard""
The message from both youth and officials were clear. The youth have to establish self-control and send younger children home from their party and prevent them from joining. The parents have to keep youth below 15 at home after 9 p.m.

It seems that a lot of the problems with troubled teens are that there is too much control and the abitions of the parents are too high. We all like our children to succeed but we also have to acknowledge that our children are exploiting during their upbringing.


You raise an excellent point, Covergaard. And I think you set up a good entre to discuss the primary questions that Pls Help keeps asking. To paraphrase it, "How can this be legal" or "How can they keep getting away with this clearly illegal activity?"

I think the trouble in my country boils down to this; we have long since given over to government too much responsiblity in our personal affairs. Even in my lifetime, even in a transient, up-start culture like So. Florida, I remember when cops brought rowdy kids home to their families by default. Now, if a kid cuts class or gets into a fight in school, they very often don't even inform the parents until the child has been taken to a central down town facility (central to a county w/ a 2.5 million population and growing swiftly), assessed and sometimes prescribed drugs. And they take umbrage at the very idea that a parent might even express displeasure with the way they handle things.

Ok, that answers it. But why have we done this? How can America, of all countries--the great leading light of liberty and government by, for and of the people--have come to a place where we accept things like zero tolerance and mandatory minimums?

Mike Males has a good bit to say about how and why America so fears our youth. Here's his primary, official web site if you want to reel in a little bit of his geist:
http://home.earthlink.net/~mmales/

I can't find the specific article at the moment, but he published one comparing customs and laws with regard to adolescents in various countries and the attendant results in the behavior of those adolescents. He presents the idea that it has to do with xenaphobia. One thing America used to do better than almost any country in history was to assimilate immigrant populations. But we had time to do that. Typically, some harsh condition somewhere in the world would send waves of hopeful Irishmen or Mexicans or Eastern Europeans to our shores. For a generation or so, each new ethnic group would be hazed, as it were. My dad, born in `24 with the surname McNulty, used to tell of signs during the depression reading "Help wanted, Irish need not apply" But by the next generation, these new immigrant groups would have settled a lot of the conflicts between their old ways and new and their children would be viewed as just about as American as anybody, and would behave so. The immigrant group would fit themselves into whatever slice of American culture they had landed in.

It's different now. Parents don't spend the time with their kids, it's just not built into our routine lives. And communities such as we used to have have been replaced by public institutions and a largely homogenous, national entertainment industry. Youth culture in America is made up largely of immigrant culture and urban culture. This scares the living hell out of some parents, who themselves have not had the security in their lives of a stable, familiar culture and community in which to live. And so they're easy marks for any self appointed life counselor or consultant offering simplistic, too-good-to-be-true answers.
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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Anonymous

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Re-educating from a danish viewpoint
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2006, 11:13:36 AM »
To many pussy ass cry babies that want the government to do everything for them. A law for this shit, a law for that shit, what the fuck?

How about a law that requires parents to have a big set of balls between their legs to say no and shit like to their kids?

meh...

Wankers..


TSW.
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Offline Deborah

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Re-educating from a danish viewpoint
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2006, 11:53:52 AM »
That Males article can be found here:
http://home.earthlink.net/~mmales/yt-euro.htm
Freedom: For Adults Only
Mike Males, Youth Today, November 2002

The largely white middle class that utilize these programs have been conditioned to let "professionals" take care of their "problems"- throw money at the problem from a distance. When in fact the majority of the staff in these programs aren't professionals. Parents who feel they can't deal with their problems would be much better off spending a fraction of what they'd spend on a program to hire a compentent professional to come in and evaluate the family dynamics and work with all family members toward peace and harmony; rather than institutionalizing the "problem" child.

These parents are also vulnerable to fear mongering- reports of increases in suicides, drug abuse, mental illness, etc when there is no data to support the hysterical claims.

Also fueling the industry is parents desire for their kid to get into the best colleges and to keep them out of the legal system. As Ginger mentioned, minor infractions that used to result in the police taking a child home now result in serious legal charges. Kids are being tried as adults for crimes. Many of the children who have committed the most heinous crimes (shooting up their schools) were on psychiatric drugs which increase the risk of suicide/homicide. Through Bush's No Child Left Behind initiative every child and staff of every school will be "screened" for mental illness with estimates as high as 40-50% needing to be on drugs. The War on Drugs- take the money out of street dealers hands and put it in the pockets of the legal drug cartel. There's now a black market for the 'legal' drugs which are often easier to acquire than their street drug equivalent.

On one hand parents are very involved in micro-managing their child's life, when it comes to the schools they attend, their social lives, their extra curricular activities. What's missing is strong family and community bonds. With both parents working children are largely being raised in institutions from infancy on. Some hardly know or see grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins.

We're witnessing the results of a social experiment gone bad. Society and families coming apart at the seams, and band-aids being applied to gaping wounds. Not much effort is put into looking at the deeper issues and what the 'real' needs of children are. The resulting chaos and distress serves the purposes of the powers that be and fuels the economy, and that is the highest priority.
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Offline Deborah

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Re-educating from a danish viewpoint
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2006, 01:12:51 PM »
?American adults are more fearful of their kids than adults in other societies, more hostile toward younger people, and more willing to abandon them and punish them for social problems than adults in other Western countries.? Why?

In this excellent interview Males addresses the issues of "teen" suicide, drug abuse, pregnancies, obesity, risky behaviors, violence, brain functioning, etc. He offers some valid explanations for why there is a war on teens.
http://www.paulkiel.com/archives/19/mik ... -interview

An excerpt addressing the notion of "At Risk" youth:
Q. There?s this last one, which doesn?t quite fit into the other group ? you wrote scathingly about a PBS special that aired a couple of years ago that purported to dissect the teenage brain, showing that there?s a flood of chemicals and that?s why they?re so irrational and make bad decisions. What do you have to say about the perception of teenagers as dumb and moody?

A. Right, well ?at risk? is what we call them in science terms. Yeah, the whole thing about the teenage brain is a repetition of this tragic and disgusting aspect of American social and medical policy ? and not just America but in other countries as well ? going back 150 years where any group that is considered an outgroup or somewhat fearsome, immediately social scientists and medical personnel (a rather small number, but they get a lot of publicity), will flock in to try to say that it?s a brain defect, it?s inherent, it?s innate to this particular group to be violent or risky.

Now in fact, and I?ll be glad to debate anyone on this subject, anywhere: There is no such thing as teenage risk taking as distinct from adult risk taking. Teenagers are not more likely to take risks, they?re not more impulsive, they?re not more hormone driven, they?re not rebellious, they?re not any of these stereotypes that are attached to them, when you look at the whole population. What we find is that teenagers at risk tend to very much follow socio-economic levels, the same as for adults, so that poorer teenagers, just like poorer adults, are at much higher risk of violent death; wealthy or middle class teenagers, just like wealthy or middle class adults, are more at risk of suicide and drug abuse. And there?s really, when you look at the whole population, no distinct teenage phenomenon.

Now this idea that there?s something wrong with the teenage brain that they?re governed by the amygdala rather than by the cerebral cortex or they have this flood of chemicals and hormones, really can apply to a lot of other groups in society ? women have been stigmatized by similar arguments, in the past African-Americans were stigmatized by these same kinds of arguments. And what we?re seeing today is that not only is there no distinct teenage behavior phenomenon, but we don?t understand enough about the brain to be making these kinds of statements. If we?re going to talk about brain development, the most frightening thing, documented in many articles, most recently in Nature in June 2004, is the deterioration of the adult brain ? so that by the age of 40, we see major declines in the ability of adult brains to learn new things and to rely on memories. Memories become much more unreliable beginning as early as the age of 40.

Now, you could make a case ? and we will never see PBS do a documentary on this and we will never see social or medical scientists gain prominence by saying this, because adults are powerful. We don?t want to be described as brain damaged ? but we could argue that people over 40 should not have any rights and take a lot of undue risks and we would have a lot of scientific data to document that, not only in brain development, but in behavior ? the high rates of middle-aged drug abuse, the high rates of middle-aged violent death, which in many cases exceed those of teenagers. But we?re not going to look at a group in society that?s powerful. And I would like people to understand that what we?re seeing here are simply attacks on powerless groups. These are political statements, not scientific or medical statements.

Q. There?s also a study you cited ? I think it was a Northwestern study that showed that individuals over the age of fourteen have exactly the same decision-making capacity as adults.

A. According to studies by psychiatrist Daniel Offer, who?s at Northwestern University, and has studied teenagers and adults, tens of thousands of teenagers and adults over the last 4 years ? his conclusions have been basically that by age 16, teenagers and adults are virtually indistinguishable in their decision-making ability, and in the actual decisions that they make and the behaviors that they engage in. Really, you?re looking at exterior factors like whether they?re rich or poor, what kind of families they come from and things like that ? not any kind of internal process that prevents teenagers from behaving like grownups.

Offer?s studies are reliable because they talk about what?s actually going on in society. They don?t talk about some theoretical construct of models of brain development that we don?t even really basically understand and that have been constantly wrong in the past in terms of predictive ability. We?re looking at how people practically behave in society. Teenagers are as mature and behave as maturely and take no more risks and do not behave any more impulsively than adults do. We really see that teenagers and adults behave in quite similar ways and there?s no particular reason for all this panic and singling out adolescents for all kinds of stigmas and restrictions that other Western societies and other societies around the world don?t do. I mean, the United States treats its adolescents in a very different and harsher ways than any society that I can find, and a lot of it is this dereliction of academics, of institutions, and of the news media in taking a more responsible stance towards younger people.

.....recklessness among adults to send poor young people to fight wars on almost whimsical bases far around the globe that have little to do with American interests on the one hand, and then on the other hand, this pious claim that we?re so concerned about the safety of our teenagers and young adults that we just have to clamp down all sorts of curfews and harsh restrictions on them and that sort of thing.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re-educating from a danish viewpoint
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2006, 01:32:26 PM »
Mike Males raises a good point about these programs being primarily for the white middle class (I would argue it's the upper middle class -- look at the cost of the programs!).

How many minorities did you see in your program? Are white parents just more crazy, more uptight or what?
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2006, 02:10:05 PM »
Actually, those were my comments, although I think Males would concur, or have a very similar opinion.
Typically, you'll find the middle class kids in the private pay (industry's term: "parent choice") programs while the working/poor class and kids of color will be found in the public programs- boot camps and RTCs- via the juvenile justice system. Then there are the "faith based" programs that appeal to both classes and are relatively more affordable due to donations and gov't funding. When you look at the methods employed by public and private programs they are more similar than different- there are only so many ways you can wash a brain, torture a kid into compliance. The primary difference is the class, religious, and racial demographics.
 
WWASPS fees are low enough that they attract some working class families who take on huge financial debt to incarcerated their kids.
But generally speaking, I think it is still true that the working/poor class and people of color still prefer to deal with their family's problems at home, and advocate for their kids if they get in the crosshairs of the JJ system. The private BM industry is a service industry for predominantly white middle class parents who want an alternative for their kids.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re-educating from a danish viewpoint
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2006, 02:16:35 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
To many pussy ass cry babies that want the government to do everything for them. A law for this shit, a law for that shit, what the fuck?

How about a law that requires parents to have a big set of balls between their legs to say no and shit like to their kids?

meh...

Wankers..


TSW.


So, why didn't you say no instead of taking a job at an abusive program? Stove, meet kettle.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re-educating from a danish viewpoint
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2006, 02:17:37 PM »
That would be pot, meet kettle. Too much coffee this morning.. heh.
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Offline Deborah

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Re-educating from a danish viewpoint
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2006, 02:54:17 PM »
FYI
Males coined a term for the the irrational fear and prejudice of teenagers, Ephebophobia, comparable to Xenophobia and Homophobia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophobia
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Offline Anonymous

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Re-educating from a danish viewpoint
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2006, 08:20:52 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
To many pussy ass cry babies that want the government to do everything for them. A law for this shit, a law for that shit, what the fuck?

How about a law that requires parents to have a big set of balls between their legs to say no and shit like to their kids?

meh...

Wankers..


TSW.

So, why didn't you say no instead of taking a job at an abusive program? Stove, meet kettle.


Why not be a parent and there won't be program.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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Re-educating from a danish viewpoint
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2006, 06:20:42 AM »
I think the problem boils down to two things:

1. As ironic as it is, the USA is trying to institutionalize every part of society.

STOP IT.

2. We're trying to project all of these lofty ideals upon people, including teenagers. To that end we're trying to force them to bond with their families long after the parents dropped the ball, or its been demonstrated they're simply too far apart as far as personality goes to be very close, so we throw the kid away to MAKE them change, or go through new-age bullshit 'therapy'.

STOP IT.

Problem solved.

(and yeah, I ripped off the MadTV "5 minute psychologist" skit big time here, but its true. This is how you stop doing stupid shit... STOP IT! STOP IT OR ILL BURY YOU ALIVE!!!"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."