facts on ALA

[Antigen]

On 2004-04-07 07:54:00, Anonymous wrote:

 I assume as concerned as you are for this student; you place Some value on her privacy.

Oh, puhleeezzzz! Her privacy? Are you pretending that this kid has voluntarily severed all ties w/ her extended family and that's why they can't get in touch w/ her?

Her privacy? Who the hell do you think you're talking to, Anon ALA spokesperson?

Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.
--

[Antigen]

On 2004-04-07 10:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

 Personally, I am sick and tired of you program owners and parents using Fornits to promote yourselves and then when things don't go your way, threatening to sue people.

Might it be more accurate to say trying to use Fornits to promote themselves? I remain firmly convinced that the pitch falls flat reliably unless the salesmen can accomplish some degree of control over the mark's perceptions. I'm not tired of it at all. I started out working from the theory that w/o the ability to control the dialog, the pitch has no legs. And I remain convinced that my theory is correct.

Errors, like straws, upon the surface flow;

He who would search for perls must dive below.

Prolougue (from preface to
the Panther Book)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0510337112/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>John Dryden, All for Love, Prolougue

[Anonymous]

Ginger Writes

{/quote}
Might it be more accurate to say trying to use Fornits to promote themselves? I remain firmly convinced that the pitch falls flat reliably unless the salesmen can accomplish some degree of control over the mark's perceptions. I'm not tired of it at all. I started out working from the theory that w/o the ability to control the dialog, the pitch has no legs. And I remain convinced that my theory is correct.
[/quote]

Now that I think about it, I think you're exactly right.  It's all in the "packaging" of the product.  

 :idea:

[Antigen]

On 2004-04-08 10:16:00, Anonymous wrote:

My impression from Carey's statements on this subject is that she was "advised" to take bodyguards (escorts?) and I believe, an educational consultant with her to Costa Rica, all at her personal expense. Is this not correct? If so, who advised her that this was appropriate and/or necessary?

I don't think you're going to get an answer to your question, except maybe from Carey. In fact, just for shits and giggles, try asking relatively routine questions about any of the organizations discussed in these fora and see if you get anywhere. Not the hard ones, like "do you engage in psychological torture?" Just the really simple stuff. Ask an EdCon how they go about ensuring that the schools and programs they refer to are actually safe and effective.

Here, like this:

To: Anon spokesperson for ALA. Putting aside for the moment the question of whether there really is a girl in ALA who's name is Amanda and who's relative, Paige, would like to contact her, let's examine the question asked earlier about how ALA goes about preventing it's charges from simply walking away. Let's assume this is a real scenario, as I think most Program vets will agree that it's plausible. Most of us found out far too late that we had friends and reletives who were not so pleased w/ our parents' decision wrt Program placement.

I understand ALA is not a lock down facility. I take that to mean that the doors are not locked and the windows are not barred or bolted shut. And yet I've read posts in these fora defending ALA's admitting and holding kids against their will because (to paraphrase) druggies don't know they need help, therefore you have to force it on them.

What would happen if Amanda were able to freely contact anyone she wanted to? What if she could just pick up the phone and call Aunt Paige collect and say "Meet me at the McDonald's in Kanab, UT" or "Wire me $100 for a bus ticket"?

In your opinion, would ALA be able to meet payrole if students were free to contact friends and family in that manner?

Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.
http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=FF7485&aid=10247' target='_new'> Thomas Jefferson, 1787

[Anonymous]

This is Paige and I know exactly what would happen. Amanda would call me from Mexico and I would drop everything as would her Aunt And Uncle to go get her and bring her home to the people who love her and the people she wants to be with. Including her grandparents, aunts and uncles, her blood brother, her great grandmother, her friends and many other people who know her and love her. Amanda knows that I will find her and she knows I will not give up on her or throw her away as her adoptive parents have. None of us who love her will give up until we have her home where she belongs. We all love her and miss her and her brother who is 14 was promised by the parents in front of the judge at the adoption that they would never be kept from seeing each other. We the family are all Christians and we are apalled by the parents behaviour towards this child. With the help we are receiving from people who are concerned and some government agencies we hope to have her home soon and hopefully in good health. Thank you all for your concern. This has been a very frustrating, fearful and stressfull experience with any luck this will be over soon. PS: The media has become very interested in how this is going. It will be interesting to see who jumps on the bandwagon to help us in our struggle to undo this injustice to this child.

[Anonymous]

Wow, this is really inspirational.  God's Speed Paige!  
 
::drummer::

[Antigen]

Paige, reading over this exchange, I see I was careless in the way I put that. I didn't mean to come accross asif I'm sure you're a troll. I'm actually pretty sure you're not. But it does happen, it often overrides the discussion so I only meant to say "let's not go there, let's just assume one or the other."

I hope I didn't hurt your feelings.

[1971 - 2001] the darkest chapter in Federal law enforcement history.
http://www.house.gov/reform/press/02.01.07.htm' target='_new'>Committee on Government Reform

[Antigen]

Paige, I don't know if you want to talk about this in more depth or not. But I can't help asking. (Believe me, I tried, and here I am asking it anyway)

How did this happen? What did the girl's parents get into that landed them up here? Or is the friction over how they're raising her a long-term issue in the family? Is it like the Gothards or something?

Any Irishman who doubts the reality of selective enforcement ought to take just a moment to comtemplate the etymology of the term "paddy waggon".
--Antigen

[Paige]

Actually you were not careless and I must apologize.

I am a bit stressed out and suffering from sleep deprivation while trying to find a solution to this problem...

The history is long. In a shorter version.....

Amanda and her brother(I will call him J) were born to a set of parents that loved them dearly. The father died of cancer 1.5 years after J was born. Amanda is 2.5 years older than J. After their father died the mom who had battled drugs and alcohol since she was a child lost it completely. At one point while they had been living with their mother they were living in abandoned houses and amanda would go beg for food for her little brother and herself. They are truly very, very remarkable children. The Aunt and Uncle took custody and looked after them and finally decided that the children would never be in a safe place with the mom and could not go back there.   The great Aunt and Uncle who are in their 70's took care of them very well and through the course of lots of counseling and time we all decided that I would legally adopt J and that Amanda would be legally adopted by the other family. We all knew each other. We set about to blend together all of the families involved with these children. We did the adoptions at the same time and the Judge was adament that the children should always be able to see each other. We ALL agreed to that. It worked very well in the beginning. Amanda was definitely in need of  more counseling and did not receive it from her new parents. I believe that in the beginning it was probably OK there. However the new mom to Amanda over the course of time would tell me that she was struggling with the girl and that she realy was having a hard time with her. She refused to go to counseling and refused to send Amanda to counseling. Again over time it got to were Amanda was not allowed to go see her great grandmother or her aunt and uncle. J and I got to see her sometimes but never more than 5 times in a year. This last year we saw her 3 times and she was no longer allowed to spend the night with us anymore. Her mother would call me screaming at me that Amanda was nothing but a scumbucket (this was her favorite term for the child) and she didn't stop there. at one time she demanded that I stop calling my extra bedroom Amanda's room and that I had to call it the quest room. I agreed - but Amanda never got to spend the night with us again anyway. She started telling Amanda that she was going to ship her off about 2 years ago. She also told Amanda that she was sorry they had adopted her. The mom also told me that among other things I went to CPS and they said that due to Amanda's age they would do nothing unless it was sexual abuse or physical abuse. The Parents took her out of school shortly after she went to live with them and has never realy gone to school since then. They used her as a maid and a nanny to the other chldren they have and to the private foster care child they took in who was 2 years old. When Amanda rebelled on Nov. 16 of 2003 and said I am not doing this anymore they said we will send you away and so she ran away. On January 14 of 2004 she contacted me and asked if she could come live with us and go to a real school. I said yes. The parents said no. I said I can go pick her up on Monday and the father said no maybe she just needs to stay away. the father asked me if I would adopt her I said yes. The mother said NO!

Amanda was picked up by the police and to make a long story short the parents shipped her off without telling any of us where they were sending her and knowing that she could live with me or the Aunt and Uncle or numerous other family members. The mother told the Deputy Sheriff that she wanted Amanda punished and in jail. HE SAID NO!!!!!

So here we are - Amanda is in Mexico at the Abundant Life Academy in Mexico for the next 4 to 9 months. The parents got what they wanted - her gone, and Amanda punished for wanting a normal life.

There is so much more to the story it is insane.

The parents are big in their church. Sunday School teachers and in church 3 days a week and for 3 or 4  hours on Sunday. You know GOOD CHRISTIANS.

Amanda needed help and she needed to be loved. After talking at length to the parents I think the Deputy Sheriff put it best. When I got to the police station 2 hours before the parents did he said:
"There is a problem here. I have been doing this for a long time and I have 6 children of my own and I know when a child is not loved, She is not loved by her parents. She is not a bad kid. Thank you for coming, I will let you see her."

Amanda will be 17 in July. In the state of Texas at 17 you can choose to live where ever you so choose without legal ramifications. But she won't be here in July she will still be in Mexico and won't be able to get back across the border without any papers which she does not have in her possession.

got any suggestions? I am open to listening, except to that guy who posts all of that obscene stuff I just don't need that right now.

So again pleae forgive me if I ever sound a bit frazzled or hostile or angry. I am all of that and very sad and heartbroken for Amanda, her brother, the rest of the family and everyone who misses her.

I don't know what or who the Gothards are.

Thanks for listening.

Paige

[Anonymous]

Ginger says:
"
Oh, puhleeezzzz! Her privacy? Are you pretending that this kid has voluntarily severed all ties w/ her extended family and that's why they can't get in touch w/ her? "


What has one thing got to do with the other?
Weather or not she is happy to be were she is, she may not want her life story told on a internet forum. I happen to think thats worth taking into consideration.
Seems her parents might also object; and weather or not you agree with their parenting; this is also something that ought to be taken into account.

Paige, for the sake of these two kids; try and find a means to get along with the other family.

[Paige]

Karen, this is exactly why I am doing this. For the sake of these two children who have had their rights to be brother and sister taken away by two adults who should be gracious enough and Christian enough to understand that these 2 children should be able to be in touch with each other no matter what the parents want or where they have sent her. We all have stories to tell. Right now Amanda is not capable of telling her story because she is basically incarcerated.

I have known and loved these children since they were 5 and 7 yrs old and I do know them well enough to know how they want this handled and this story will be told. If you choose not to listen so be it and you are entitled to your opinions. So best wishes to you.

[Antigen]

On 2004-04-08 17:59:00, Paige wrote:

got any suggestions? I am open to listening, except to that guy who posts all of that obscene stuff I just don't need that right now.

I think she means you, Butcher. You can only call it playing if everybody's having fun. You know I won't censor you because that would damage trust. But please, just as a fellow user of these fora, please let up.

Everything that people say to you is personal. Whether it is constructive criticism or not will determine whether it cam from and asshole or not.

----Bill Warbis

[Antigen]

Paige, I think you're holding it together admirably! You haven't said a think to offend me.

I don't know what advice I can give you that you're not already following. I'd give my eye teeth to have had just one relative or friend go to the effort for me that you have for Amanda.

What is the judge doing? Judges don't usually like for their orders to be disregarded. Maybe you can get an order from the court to return her to Texas and place her in your custody. See if that sheriff will give you an affidavit.

Have you tried to get a writ of habeas corpus? I'm not a lawyer and I can't even begin to judge whether or not that would be legally practical or effective in your situation and jurisdiction. But I know that some kids have gotten their day in court because some concerned relative or friend has insisted on their presence in the court and they've used that particular instrument to do it.

Now, here's the scary part. I don't know how your relationship w/ this girl has been or her personality, but you ask "What would Amanda say?" I want to warn you that she might surprise you. If my own father had shown up at Straight after a certain point and asked me, point blank, if I wanted to walk out the door with him and never come back, I would have said no. I would have been lying through my teeth, but I would have been too scared that it was just another test. After awhile of seeing and hearing from only Program people, you get pretty well convinced that, if the Program allows any contact, it must be someone who they've already gotten to.

How about this. Find someone in Mexico willing to post "Have you seen me" flyers w/ the girls' picture and your phone number. Maybe if she makes it out again, someone will put her up and keep her hidden till you can arrange to get her back in the country. Maybe she'll even catch sight of a flyer and know you're looking to get her out. Right now, she doesn't have any proof of that and you can bet they're probably telling her that no one cares.

If you decide to go down there, w/ or w/o a court order, and you feel you need some hired muscle to protect you, hire your own damned body guard, PI or bondsman. Do NOT take advice from someone in the industry who says they can arrange it for you for just a couple three tens of thousands of dollars!

Marijuana clearly has medicinal value.
 Thousands of seriously ill Americans have
 been able to determine that for themselves,
 albeit illegally. Like my own family, these
 individuals did not wish to break the law but
 they had no choice.
 

--Lyn Nofziger, former deputy chairman of the Republican National Committee

[Anonymous]

Thank you for you support, I am very grateful to everyone who has listened and offered advice.
Amanda and her brother are such amazing people and I have been so blessed to have them in my life. I have also been blessed with the extended family that I received when these children came into my life. I have also been blessed with many people including yourself who have taken the time to read listen and offer help. I can not thank you enough. Best Wishes to you.
 
Paige

[Anonymous]

Paige, have you heard about the relative who went to court to get a young relative of hers out of a program?  Don't know if it is relevant to your situation, (she did win the custody case) but thought I would bring it to your attention with the hope that it could be helpful.

Secound, what about ISAC?  I can't personally vouch for them but they appear to have some experience in this area.  Have you contacted them?

Re: Gini Farmer
http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/mvm/

ISAC
http://www.isaccorp.com

Keep your chin up, God is with you.