Elan was no straight

[Antigen]

Matt, I hope you'll let the guilt go. From what you've told me about the whole affair, yeah, I'd say you were not fully in charge of your faculties at the time and through no fault or choice or your own. To draw a familiar comparison, if every hospital employee ever assaulted by a labouring woman were to take it personally, there'd be no one left to work the maternity ward. Having been through labour and delivery 3 times and only about 6 or 10 hours of marathon one time, I can tell you that child birth was a breeze by comparison. (no, I didn't assault anyone, but it's a common occurance)

Thank God or whoever that you didn't kill the guy! But if he can't see how that incident came about, it's not on you. And I get the sense from how you bear yourself and some things that you've said that you learned from that horrible experience to tread ever so lightly through life to avoid ever hurting anyone again. That's worth doing and so the whole thing is worth remembering. But I really don't think you have anything to feel guilty about.

[Anonymous]

Quite alot has transpired from a simple post (the first) and I must say its quite entertaining to see people make such a big deal of it..a really big twisted deal.

I guess I was uneffected by Elan, I found it tollerable even in what was called the worst house to be in at the time. Yeah, some former straight or Elan "victim" will come along again and claim I am dealing with post traumatic stress disorder or some clinical explaination for why 27 months of Elan really doesnt stand out in my memory as a period of trauma and torment...so thanks in advance for the free medical advice.

I went back and read the first post, and really didnt see any occasion where I am suggesting thoughts and feelings for anyone but myself...its funny kinda...a little strange too that people have some need to bandwagon a person who really has nothing negative to say about Elan..hell I was in places as a child that made Elan seem like a girlscout camp. Does it really bother people that my oppinion of Elan is different than your own? ... whos problem is that?

To spend a mere 45 seconds tracing an IP is one thing..but to attempt to either intimidate me by posting mine, or flex your emuscle by running tracert and posting the results is quite pathetic dont you think?

Yes I am harborside....so?  Im sure you have an IP too dont you? Lets see, does anyone CARE where it is? this is too juveline for me, almost like a yahoo chat room here.

[Carmel]

Quote from Anonymous 7/8/02

"I went back and read the first post, and really didnt see any occasion where I am suggesting thoughts and feelings for anyone but myself..."

Quote from Anonymous 6/27/02

"What your doing is soliciting lies and exhagerations from former ELan students to support your claims..."

-

Hmm...I guess this is twisted too no?  I suppose anything can be twisted to fit the ideas and principals of an individual.  I see we have come to an impass.  Those of us who say it happened...cannot strong-arm those of us who say it didnt, and vice versa.  We do all have a right to our own opinion.  

However, I do find your posting to be antagonistic.  I cannot speak for all, but I personally have never felt the need to call anyone twisted or delusional simply because I did not agree with them in regards to these programs and the abuses that took place.  Your experience there was different from others, and to be honest if that is truly the case....well, then its a good thing...its good that something good came out with the bad that came out for others in your group.

The only thing that hurts about your opinion to me personally is your condecending tone.  Why is it necessary to discredit and write off the experiences of others simply because yours differs?  Can you truly speak with honesty for ALL of those whom you went through therapy with?

Can you see my logic in hearing nothing but sorrow from people who went through Elan, over and over, and then hearing one person come and say that it was all lies and delusions?  Put yourself in our shoes...what would you believe?  There must be some truth to what these people say happened...and given the similar nature of straight and elan, and the things I went through...I am inclined to believe them.  Please explain to me how that translates into me soliciting lies to support my claims?

[Carmel]

Just one more thing I would like to mention.  These boards are here for anyone who wishes to express an opinion.  However, it has been my experience that just about every new person who posts here has a story of pain and sadness to tell.  No one forces them to do so.  It seems a relief to find others who understand....this is not coerced, it is simply a fact.  If there are stories of happiness and fulfillment associted with the programs...then I believe they are welcome here also....but instead of trying to put those of who had a rough time down....why dont you share your story with us and how it helped you?  We can contribute and learn from each other....or we can tear each other apart.....I prefer to learn.

Maybe it would be beneficial to seek out others on other boards that share your experience....because unfortunately, there are few here who share it, it seems.  Its not my place to call those people liars or deluded....its simply a fact.

[Antigen]

On 2002-07-08 00:18:00 Anonymous wrote:  I must say its quite entertaining to see people make such a big deal of it..a really big twisted deal.

...

I went back and read the first post, and really didnt see any occasion where I am suggesting thoughts and feelings for anyone but myself.

But...

On 2002-07-08  2002-06-27 22:35:00, Anonymous wrote: Elan was mild by comparison, it really was...nobody ever produced a knife in a threatening manner, though there were many available.

Others have made very, very different observations. Doesn't mean they're twisted. Just means their observations were different than your own.

On 2002-07-08 00:18:00 Anonymous wrote:  I guess I was uneffected by Elan, I found it tollerable even in what was called the worst house to be in at the time. Yeah, some former straight or Elan "victim" will come along again and claim I am dealing with post traumatic stress disorder or some clinical explaination for why 27 months of Elan really doesnt stand out in my memory as a period of trauma and torment...so thanks in advance for the free medical advice.

Yeah, I was the same way. My life up until intake at Straight had been pretty damned stressful. And, essentially, I didn't give a flyin' run at a rollin' doughnut about any but a rare few in that place. At most I had no more than casual admiration or a secret crush that didn't mean much more to me than mild diversion from the mind-numbing monotony of the day.

So, when someone was being held down on the floor and sat on for hours or a brawl broke out in the timeout room or in group, I didn't view it at the time as abuse. I just thought something along the lines of "I wonder when that dumb fuck is going to figure out they're outnumbered and quit getting themselves beat up."

I was just doin' my time, viewed the whole thing as a monumental hassle and a waste of time and figured everyone else just sort of shook it off afterward as well. I wish you and I had been right. But, unfortunately, an awful lot of people, kids and adults alike, who are subjected to this particular type of thought reform don't just shake it off.  

Now, most folks who respond badly to this kind of treatment are only a danger to themselves. Some actually carve on themselves or commit suicide. Most just self-medicate like maniacs or spend a lot of time indoors. But some few go and beat their parents to death with a baseball bat or, worse, take up public office or lobbying endevours to impose their salvation on others.

Still, cold hearted (by some people's reckoning) and dispassionate woman that I am, that still wouldn't compel me to spend much time and energy if I could believe, as I did for some years, that this was just an ineffectual, weird little cult that was only a problem for those few, unfortunate souls who found themselves under their influence for a time. But that's not accurate either. Fact is that this type of 'therapy' is the standard in the drug treatment industry in this country. It's being used in public and private jails, boot camps and schools accross the land.

More and more, people are being forced into this type of treatment for anything from posession of certain enchanting flowers to having a 'bad attitude' toward a school teacher or administrator (who may very well be an asshole by any reasonable assesment) to getting pulled over after having 2 or 3 beers after work.

I don't know about you, but I dread the thought of living among a polulation and under a government made up in any significant part of Program alumni.

On 2002-07-08 00:18:00 Anonymous wrote: To spend a mere 45 seconds tracing an IP is one thing..but to attempt to either intimidate me by posting mine, or flex your emuscle by running tracert and posting the results is quite pathetic dont you think?

Actually, it took about 20 minutes to write the script some years ago. See, I do this for a living. It's a diagnostic tool. Only takes about 10 seconds to run it.

I wasn't trying to intimidate you, and I hope you're not really intimidated. Just making the point that yes, I can pretty well ban any IP or range of IPs from using all or parts of my server. I thought it was important to demonstrate that because some people seemed to think that the level of anonymity that I provide with this server was more than what it is.  

[ This Message was edited by: Antigen on 2002-07-08 11:44 ]

[Anonymous]

I suppose I should get my own ISP now!

You do what for a living?
Well while we are on the topic of employment, I install, configure and test the machines in central offices throughout the country that allow you and millions of others to access the internet via multipair copper, fiber , coax cable, and of course wirelessly...Fiber is the shit! A typical machine called an OC 192 takes 192 voice and or data transmissions, colors them, and assigns the travel rate at different intervals to squeeze them all onto ONE fiber without interfering with one another...bidirectionally!  Gee its so nice to roam from the "treatment" topic now and then isnt it.

I understand and absorbed the previous posts addressed to me and have considered the advice... I would like to make one thing clear, I am NOT insensitive to the pains people have suffered as a result of all these treatment facilities (for lack of a better phrase) I just think that all the time spent in environments such as these would be so much more productive confronting WHY we have grown into adults who experienced these places, yet children still GO to them.

[Anonymous]

On the other hand, theres quite a juvenile reaction to my first post as well, and what I meant by "twisted" was it was blown way out of proportion.
Theres no way to validate a story about how one person attacked another with a butcher knife, and I honestly find it quite difficult to believe...regardless, my point was this, ELan and Straight were two very different places. Comparing my 27 months in ELan to the stories I have read about straight, it appears straight was a more hostile, and a far more dangerous environment.

The comment "soliciting lies" is what I think I would call a metaphor? see, there are MANY people with a bullshit story about what happened in Elan, exhagerations exsist  its tough to prove, its also tough to deny.  With the apparent motivation of this website, and others, people take the atmosphere as a place to share experiences that are all NEGATIVE, thus people go out of their way to develop an outstanding story.

I look at my experience at Elan like I had brain tumor surgery..I went under the knife, had the top of my skull cut completely off, and a portion of my brain sliced diced and discarded...sure, 20 years later when I reach out and poke the scars, theres still a bit of tenderness, but the TUMOR that would have killed me is GONE

We all had "tumors" in one way or another.
 I am sorry some people didnt recieve the proper anesthesia and more than the tumor was removed than needed to be.

[Anonymous]

That's exactly what we're trying to do.  But there are also people out there who were GREATLY affected by these programs and STILL ARE TO THIS DAY.  If you're not one of them, great, but DON'T tell those of us who ARE that we just need to get on with our lives and quit spending so much time on dwelling on what happened 20 years ago.  It has affected some of us for the past 20 years and it's nice to finally find some people who understand what the Hell we're talking about because, damn sure nobody else can.  I NEEDED to be able to spew some of this shit off.  It has helped immensely and for you to come along and dismiss it as I just need to move on with my life IS insensitive and completely unnecessary.  You are not me and you have NO IDEA what I NEED to do, so please don't tell any one of us that crap anymore about just moving on.  I'm truly glad that you did not come away with the same experiences that most of us had, but the facts are...we DID have them and they do need to be dealt with and part of dealing with them  is being able to talk about them.  The only place to be able to find others that went through it is in forums like these.  If you don't feel the need to talk about what you went through, then don't, but don't dismiss us when we feel the need to.

[Carmel]

Its just very obvious to me that you are attempting to speak for others for whom you have no association.

I had no "tumor" that would have killed me.  I was not a drug addict, an alcoholic, a food addict, sex addict....or any addict of any kind.  I was a product of an abusive and abandoning father, a abusive and victimizing mother, a TRULY alcoholic, compulsive lying stepfather.

I was a young kid with nowhere to go.  In reality, the abuses I experienced in Straight were very similar to what I was already experiencing at home.

See, parents can destroy their children and then wonder why their children are so messed up.  And it can be so much eaiser for them to put it off on drugs or sex or whatever.

See, I was surviving in my own hell before Straight.....one not of my own making.  As an adult, I can say that with objectivity.

My tumor was my homelife...and by attempting to cut it out of me, on behalf of the entire family....well, you can agree that it didnt fix the problems.

In response to your statement about confronting WHY these programs are still the solution....well, WHY is war still the solution?  Why is taking of innocent lives still the solution?  Why is oppressive religion and/or goverment still the solution?  There are many things in this world that are still acting as "solutions" to our maladies....but just because they are in effect, does that make them appropriate?  Not hardly.  

By saying that we should advocate these programs simply because the powers that be says they are effective and helpful......well, that only makes us mindless sheep.....people who have been lobotomized to describe your "tumor" procedure.

I dont care if my country tells me Straight is or was the best place for me at the time....I was there, I saw/felt what happened....and it was in fact not even close.  I cant change that.  

I also fail to see how a negative reaction to being called a liar, and weak, and clinging to the past is juvenile.  Ill re-state the fact that I have no qualms with anyone saying their experience was good or bad......but it isnt necessary to tear into others in order to do so.

I read a few posts at the Elan forum here, and it is indeed very volitile.  I cant begin to vouch for either opinion over there...but I can do it here.  If quelling anger and hatred is your goal, then it seems to me its those people over there that need to be confronted.

[GregFL]

On 2002-07-10 07:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
On the other hand, theres quite a juvenile reaction to my first post as well, and what I meant by "twisted" was it was blown way out of proportion.

Theres no way to validate a story about how one person attacked another with a butcher knife, and I honestly find it quite difficult to believe...regardless, my point was this, ELan and Straight were two very different places. Comparing my 27 months in ELan to the stories I have read about straight, it appears straight was a more hostile, and a far more dangerous environment.



The comment "soliciting lies" is what I think I would call a metaphor? see, there are MANY people with a bullshit story about what happened in Elan, exhagerations exsist  its tough to prove, its also tough to deny.  With the apparent motivation of this website, and others, people take the atmosphere as a place to share experiences that are all NEGATIVE, thus people go out of their way to develop an outstanding story.



I look at my experience at Elan like I had brain tumor surgery..I went under the knife, had the top of my skull cut completely off, and a portion of my brain sliced diced and discarded...sure, 20 years later when I reach out and poke the scars, theres still a bit of tenderness, but the TUMOR that would have killed me is GONE



We all had "tumors" in one way or another.

 I am sorry some people didnt recieve the proper anesthesia and more than the tumor was removed than needed to be.

I do not believe that Elan was any better than straight in the overall scheme of things. They were both cheap synanon knock off programs that base their treatment modality on abuse and humiliation, denial of indivuality and brainwashing techniques.
Interesting that the whole synanon approach to "treatment" is to convince you you were worthless and dying before the program and that the program, no matter how hard, saved you.
Look at your post Harborside, you are still spewing the synanon line verbatem. I don't know you but I am sure someone somewhere would say you weren't worthless and diseased prior to being "saved" by Elan.
Your analogy is just a little off. More like treating a toothache by removing a part of your brain, not a tumor. You deserved to mantain all of your brain(personality, uniqueness) and never deserved to be sliced and diced, irrespective of what they convinced you  at Elan/Seed/straight/pickyourabusersynanonrippoff, inc.
Most of my adult friends today screwed up as teenagers, and fortunately for them, they were left to their own devices to turn their lives around. They were fortunate enough to dodge the bullet and not get "help" like you and me did.