Author Topic: I saw The Passion Of The Christ tonight  (Read 26434 times)

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Offline GregFL

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I saw The Passion Of The Christ tonight
« Reply #150 on: March 03, 2004, 09:17:00 PM »
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On 2004-03-03 15:47:00, Anonymous wrote:

"glad to see your posts too Greg- sorry I must have mis-read the posts about your daughter I thought it was typed in alot of CAPS indicating irritation?


Apology accepted. Words or sentences in all caps, in internet language, especially mixed with lower cased words, usually means EMPHASIS. Paragraphs or entire posts in all caps usually means anger or is the cyperspace equivalent of yelling. My caps are AlMOST always meant for emphasis.

I rarely get angry in internet chat groups and in fact haven't gotten angry in a seedling derivate  related internet site in years.
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Offline Anonymous

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I saw The Passion Of The Christ tonight
« Reply #151 on: March 03, 2004, 11:44:00 PM »
Personally, after seeing the movie, I also do not believe Gibson is anti-Seminic. However, this author presents a different view on the question of who killed Jesus which I found rather intriquing.  Has anyone actually read this book? If so, I'd be interested in hearing their point of view.  

------------------------------------------------  

In the Territory of Antipas

Herod the Great ruled the entire Jewish homeland for over thirty years with the tide King of the Jews. After his death, the Roman emperor Augustus divided his territories, placing Galilee and Perea, areas northwest and east of the Jordan, under his son Herod Antipas with the title of tetrarch, and placing Samaria,Judea, and Idumea, areas west and southWest of the Jordan, under a Roman governor with the title of prefect.

Why did two peasant movements, that of John and that of Jesus, arise in Perea and Galilee rather than in Samaria, Judea, or Idumea? Why did they arise under the Herodian kingling Antipas rather than under his father, Herod the Great, who ruled the entire country from 37 to 4 B.C.E., or under his half-nephew Agrippa 1, who ruled the entire country from 41 to 44 C.E.? And, because Antipas ruled between 4 B.C.E. and 39 C.E., why did they arise in the late 20s rather than in any other period of that long reign? Why did two movements, the Baptism movement of John and the Kingdom movement of Jesus, arise in the late 20S of that first common-era century in the two separated regions of Antipas's territory, John in Perea east of the Jordan and Jesus in Galilee to its northwest? Why precisely there, why exactly then?

This Land Belongs to God

The Roman world was an aristocratic society, a preindustrial empire It, which the peasantry produced a very large agricultural surplus. But, as in any agrarian empire, a tiny minority of political and religious elites, along with their supporters and retainers, held the peasantry at subsistence level and thereby obtained levels of luxury those exploited and oppressed Peasants could hardly even imagine. The Roman Empire, however, was no longer a traditional but rather a commercialized agrarian empire, and the Jewish peasantry was being pushed into debt and displaced from its holdings at higher than normal rates as land became, under the commercializing Roman economy, less an ancestral inheritance never to be abandoned and more an entrepreneurial commodity rapidly to be exploited. In a traditional or uncommercialized agrarian empire, business or investment intrudes minimally if at all between aristocrats and peasants. There exists almost a steady state situation in which peasants produce and aristocrats take, and it almost looks like an inevitable if not natural process. Peasants resist exploitation, of course, but in the same fatalistic way that they resist other unfortunate but implacable phenomena such as storm, flood, or disease. But with commercialization even the guarantee of owning one's own familial plot of well-taxed land is gone, and the peasantry, having learned that things can change for the worse, begin to ponder how they might also change for the better, even for the ideal or utopian better. As ancient commercialization, let alone modern industrialization, intrudes into an agrarian and aristocratic empire, the barometer of possible political rebellion and/or social revolution rises accordingly among the peasantry. That was. precisely the situation in the Mediterranean world of the first century. The Roman civil wars, from Julius Caesar against Pompey to Octavius against Antony, had ended with Octavius emerging as the victorious Augustus, and this Augustan Peace opened the Roman Empire to an economic boom. But booms do not boom alike for everyone.

The Jewish peasantry was prone, over and above the resistance expected from any colonial peasantry, to refuse quiet compliance with heavy taxation, subsistence farming, debt impoverishment, and land expropriation. Their traditional ideology of land was enshrined in the ancient scriptural laws. Just as God's people were to rest on the seventh or Sabbath Day, so God's land was to rest on the seventh or Sabbath Year:

For six years you shall sow your land and gather in its yield; but the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, so that the poor of your people mayeat; and what they leave the wild animals may eat. You shall do the samewith your vineyard, and with your olive orchard. (Exodus 23: 10-11)

When you enter the land that I am giving you, the land shall observe a sabbath for the Lord. Six years you shall sow your field, and six years you shall prune your vineyard, and gather in their yield; but in the seventh year there shall be a sabbath of complete rest for the land, a sabbath for the Lord: youshall not sow your field or prune your vineyard. (Leviticus 25:2--4)

On that seventh or Sabbath Year, moreover, Jewish debts were to be remitted and Jewish slaves were to be released.

Every seventh year you shall grant a remission of debts. And this is the manner of the remission: every creditor shall remit the claim that is held against a neighbor, not exacting it of a neighbor who is a member of the community, because the Lord's remission has been Proclaimed. Of a foreigner you may exact it, but you must remit your claim on whatever any member of your community owes yoe . . .

If a member of your community, whether a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you and works for you six years, in the seventh year you shall set that person free. And when you send a male slave out from you a free person, you shall not send him out empty-handed. Provide liberally out of your flock, your threshing floor, and your wine press, thus giving to him some of the bounty with which the Lord your God has blessed you- (Deuteronomy 15:1-3,12-14)

Excerpt:
Who Killed Jesus?
Exposing the Roots of Anti-Semitism in the Gospel Story of the Death of Jesus

by John Dominic Crossan
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Offline Dr Fucktard

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I saw The Passion Of The Christ tonight
« Reply #152 on: March 03, 2004, 11:51:00 PM »
As I contemplate Mel Gibson?s The Passion of the Christ, the sequence I keep coming back to, again and again, is the scourging at the pillar.

One reason, certainly, is that it is the most horrifying sequence in the film, more agonizing even than the crucifixion itself, or the carrying of the cross. But there are other reasons as well.

The sequence is also an outstanding example of Gibson?s original vision of telling the story in the languages of the day, without subtitles. As the Roman centurions flog Jesus, their brutal, laughing mockery and derisive taunts go on for long minutes ? and the Latin is left untranslated. We don?t know what they?re saying, and we don?t need to know. Subtitles would be an unnecessary distraction.

At other points throughout the film, Gibson ultimately found it necessary to use subtitles; still, some of the most effective scenes remain the ones for which he was able to avoid them. As necessary as they may be in some scenes, especially on a first viewing, when the film becomes available on DVD everyone who buys it should watch it at least once with the subtitles turned off.

That the story was filmed in Latin and Aramaic at all is worthy of note. Put aside linguistic quibbles about what first-century Latin actually sounded like, or whether Jews and Romans wouldn?t have used Greek rather than Latin to converse with one another. The larger point is that, for the first time since the silent era, a cinematic Jesus is unencumbered by British-accented (or worse, American-accented) English, or by a European romance language, etc.

The scourging at the pillar also stands out for the way it cuts through the smoke of confusion and misinformation coming from both sides of the controversy surrounding the film. Watching this scene, two things become transparently clear.

First, notwithstanding at-times exaggerated claims of historical accuracy and fidelity to the gospels from some of the film?s defenders, The Passion of the Christ is not an attempt to depict the sufferings of Christ exactly as described in the New Testament. Rather, while following the basic outline of the passion narratives, the film is an imaginative, at times poetic reflection on the meaning of the gospel story in light of sacred tradition and Catholic theology.

Consider the following incident: As Jesus is being flogged, Claudia, the wife of Pilate, approaches the Blessed Virgin and Mary Magdalene bearing folded linens, which she gives to them. After Jesus is taken away, the two Marys go down on the flagstones and begin mopping up the blood of Jesus which has been spilled around the pillar.

This incident, found nowhere in the gospels; comes from the visionary writings of Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich, the 19th-century stigmatic and mystic whose Dolorous Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ significantly influenced the screenplay for The Passion of the Christ. The scenario is strikingly evocative of Catholic piety regarding Jesus? precious blood, but doesn?t reflect a historiographical concern with sticking to the gospel accounts.

Not all of the film?s glosses on the gospel accounts come from Emmerich. The scourging at the pillar is also the occasion of one of Gibson?s own most singular, unnerving imaginative flourishes. A satanic figure haunts the film, watchful and inscrutable. We first see it in the garden of Gethsemane, where its attempts to dissuade Jesus from his mission are a nihilistic litany of negation: ?No man can bear this burden? No one. Ever. No. Never.?

At certain points this androgynous figure is depicted in opposition to the Virgin Mary ? but never more arrestingly so than before the pillar, where there is a kind of anti-Marian vision that I will not describe, except to say that it is so bizarre and grotesque, yet ultimately meaningless, that it seems to come straight from hell.

The other thing the scourging scene makes clear is the hollowness of activist complaints about the film?s supposed anti-Semitism. The depiction of the Jewish mob may be unflattering, but it pales to insignificance beside the unmitigated barbarism of the Roman brute squad. We also see the high priest Caiaphas watching the scourging ? not sadistically reveling in the spectacle of Jesus? sufferings, but clearly troubled, finding it painful to watch.

Significantly, this humanizing touch in Caiaphas?s characterization comes neither from the gospels, nor from sources such as Sr. Emmerich, but is original to the film. In fact, Sr. Emmerich?s account includes a strikingly different account of the Jewish onlookers during the scourging: She depicts Jewish leaders paying the Roman soldiers and plying them with drink to induce them to even more brutality. Gibson?s film not only omits this unsavory flourish, but goes in the opposite direction, giving a humanizing detail not found in the gospels.

For all this, though, the single most overwhelming aspect of the scourging at the pillar remains its sheer savagery. No previous Jesus film has ever approached this level of brutal violence ? in part because no previous film has ever focused so closely on the passion particularly.

Certainly, Jesus? passion and death was horrific and violent; and there is a long tradition, especially in the West, of devout meditation on the specifics of Jesus? sufferings (the sorrowful mysteries, the stations of the cross, etc.).

Yet when the film shows the soldiers stretching Jesus prone to nail him to the cross, then flipping the cross over and crushing him under it before raising it upright, some viewers, especially those less used to cinematic violence, may wonder whether this goes too far. Some, indeed, may not wish to see the film at all ? and may even feel guilty for feeling that way, as if having reservations about this film were somehow unchristian.

That would be a mistake. Movies, like everything human, are a matter of Christian liberty; no one is obligated to see, or like, any film in the world. The Passion of the Christ is an artistic expression of the faith, not the faith itself.

Yet it is also a preeminently important cinematic expression of the faith ? probably one of the most important religious films of all time. It tells only a part of the gospel story, as the passion narratives themselves are only a part of the gospels; but that part is the very crux: that Christ died for us.
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Offline Dr Fucktard

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I saw The Passion Of The Christ tonight
« Reply #153 on: March 03, 2004, 11:54:00 PM »
Quote
Personally, after seeing the movie, I also do not believe Gibson is anti-Seminic. However, this author presents a different view on the question of who killed Jesus which I found rather intriquing. Has anyone actually read this book? If so, I'd be interested in hearing their point of view.

The Jews are a jittery people," wrote Israel Zangwill. "Nineteen centuries of Christian love have worn badly on their nerves. " Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" is an excellent demonstration of why. The New Testament -- anti-Semitic? So what else is new? You can't fault Gibson for faithfully reflecting his source material.
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Offline GregFL

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I saw The Passion Of The Christ tonight
« Reply #154 on: March 04, 2004, 02:52:00 AM »
"The Jews are a jittery people," wrote Israel Zangwill. "Nineteen centuries of Christian love have worn badly on their nerves."

Wow, a great and funny quote by FT.

FT, actually contributing and not trolling!

Suddenly, I too believe in miracles!!
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Offline kpickle39

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I saw The Passion Of The Christ tonight
« Reply #155 on: March 04, 2004, 08:27:00 AM »
Greg; my exact thoughts when I finished reading FT's post.  Excellent post FT!  This is kind of interesting to me...I went to my doctor for a pyhsical last week (now that I am an old dude, I try and get one each year).  Anyway, one of the questions the nurses assistant asks me is "are you spiritual".  I said, yes, and then she stumbled and said "what kind of spiritual are you?" I looked at her kind of strange and she says "...baptist?  catholic?  holiness?  ASG?AME?. . ."  I laughed and said "christian"  
Now mind you I live up in the rural panhandle of of northwest Florida and my doctor is  30 miles from my home.   Small town, bout 6000 people.  Anyway, it was a strange experience, as it always is when I drive into Quincy.  

Kpickle, Straight St. Pete '78 - '80
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Offline Anonymous

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I saw The Passion Of The Christ tonight
« Reply #156 on: March 04, 2004, 10:39:00 AM »
The Jews are God's chosen people - that has not changed and not been mentioned (that I've heard) by Mel Gibson in interviews- when they refused Christ it made a way for Gentiles - non Jews- to enter into relationship but he has the Jewish people always on his heart and Christians are instructed to stand with and pray for Israel...and many Jews do believe that Christ was the Messiah..they are Messianic Jews and there numbers have been growing...

it is always interesting to me that the tiny spot of land that is Israel has for so many years has been under the spotlight of the world?
 
the gift of Jesus was just that a gift-- a willing sacrifice by a loving God...he was the final sacrifice- no more do we need to offer a blood sacrifice for our sin -lambs etc-..his perfect sacrifice and blood cover all. - if you want it- is the new deal -the new covenant- the Word says..  in Jesus a new and better covenant than that of the Old testament...not that we are to ignore the old but we are joint heirs to the promises through Christ Jesus.

his name is above all names and seems cursed above all names as well...the enemy knows the power in the Blood and in the Name of Jesus

it is true that we do NOT war against flesh and blood but principalities of power that rule the air..that infulence the flesh-

cannot describe how much fun it is to stand in the authority I have in Christ Jesus and rebuke sickness and schemes...with Him all things are possible and I've witnessed many things that should not have been in the natural..

Jesus said that those that believe will do Greater things than I do--Greater!!! if we could really get a hold of that and trust/believe??? we're suppose to trust as little children trust their parents.

IMO the church/religion has done a great dis-service to our youth I was raised in a Pres. church and never got it...I was never taught about the baptism of the Holy Spirit or that there are 2 baptisms one we do to each other in water and one only Jesus gives with Fire and Power...how many are looking for spiritual power and that we are made to hold and use His power for His Glory yet the church has said those gifts are not for today - all that has died away- that is BS and when I was baptised by Jesus - then my life changed and I saw anew and walked in authority before that it was like being wood in the surf being pushed around by the enemy and not knowing where my authority was....if you want to go to church and be fed I'd recommend finding a Spirit-filled church that teaches ALL of the Bible including the gifts of the Spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit- that's what happened at Pentecost when they got fire on their heads and spoke in new tongues...it's way more fun than any chemical can bring - it's fun and God's will too... :smile:

 it must be awful for the Father to watch his creation not entering into all that he has for them...just as it is hard for natural parents when children do not head our wisdom and fall into traps that they need not.
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Offline Dr. Miller Newton

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I saw The Passion Of The Christ tonight
« Reply #157 on: March 04, 2004, 10:53:00 AM »
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it must be awful for the Father to watch his creation not entering into all that he has for them...just as it is hard for natural parents when children do not head our wisdom and fall into traps that they need not.

Amen!!  :nworthy:  :rofl:

That's how the little fuckers get hooked on drugs.

Just read my book, "Gone Way Down." That will explain it all..
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Teenage Drug Use Is A Disease

Offline GregFL

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I saw The Passion Of The Christ tonight
« Reply #158 on: March 04, 2004, 11:03:00 AM »
Don't even open the pandora's box of penecostals speaking in cultic tonques.

ahh, anon, you just can't seem to keep your focus on the specifics we  are discussing for some reason but instead want to turn this into a swarmy feel good preaching session of rambling religius references.

No thank you.



[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-04 08:04 ]
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Offline Dr Fucktard

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I saw The Passion Of The Christ tonight
« Reply #159 on: March 04, 2004, 11:06:00 AM »
Quote
ahh, anon, you just can't seem to keep your focus on the specifics we are discussing for some reason but instead want to turn this into a swarmy feel good preaching session of rambling religius references.

Very well phrased, my good man.
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Offline Anonymous

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I saw The Passion Of The Christ tonight
« Reply #160 on: March 04, 2004, 12:57:00 PM »
I don't want to argue and sounds like you all aren't interested in anything that doesn't feel right to you...just letting you know what the Word of God says and sharing my experience...I'll leave you all to figure it out...be blessed
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Offline GregFL

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I saw The Passion Of The Christ tonight
« Reply #161 on: March 04, 2004, 01:20:00 PM »
anon, don't run with your tail tucked. Instead, join the conversation instead of rambling and preaching. This thread isn't about "the word of god" it is about actual verification of claims (and the movie). If you want to share your faith, start a new thread. This thread has very specific topics that you are muddying up.

Stay and get serious about the discussion.
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Offline Anonymous

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I saw The Passion Of The Christ tonight
« Reply #162 on: March 04, 2004, 01:31:00 PM »
as you have trouble with the word I also have trouble stomaching the Satanic writing some have made- it is heartbreaking to me to see that he has some in his grip -

tails not tucked but I'm not interested in continuing under those guidelines..I know what I know that I know...if you're not interested in hearing what a non-religous person with a real relationship with the Father has to say..then I'll go and wish you all the best --you've been dealt a touch hand in the past and hope that your future is full of peace and joy wherever you seek it

 please all be good to those God has gifted you with- in particular your children and keep searching much of my concern is for the offspring whose parents have been locked up and abused...please ask for help where you need it I read in other threads of much hurt and despair..I hope that all of your needs are met....Allbest..
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Offline GregFL

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I saw The Passion Of The Christ tonight
« Reply #163 on: March 04, 2004, 02:11:00 PM »
Trouble with the word? You absolutey are over the top, anon. I am quite sure I have more comprehension of the bible than you do.

So, thanks anyway but your christian religious rambling and vagueness offers nothing new to someone who was raised in the united states of america. anyone who hasn't heard that krill at least a thousand times would have to be dead. (tho not necessarily insane or in jail  :grin:)

And you really believe FT is satanic? AWW, COME ON. Can't you recognize sarcasm when you see it? It was an attempt at humor by a poster that loves to troll and disrupt. Get a freaken clue.  

This thread is about stating your belief and verifying what you say. You haven't done it one time. It is no surprise that when the conversation is framed as a serious discussion looking for verification of claims, many of the more incredulous christians  all dissapear or start with the preaching, the attacking, the questioning of character, the invoking of "satanic" influence, etc etc.

Your writings here are so predictible as to be boring at best.

Goodday.



[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-03-05 06:38 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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I saw The Passion Of The Christ tonight
« Reply #164 on: March 04, 2004, 03:58:00 PM »
LOLOLOLOL :rofl: you kicked her ass Gregfl
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