Author Topic: NA/AA/Stepcraft is Dangerous  (Read 4376 times)

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Offline RTP2003

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NA/AA/Stepcraft is Dangerous
« on: February 21, 2004, 12:44:00 PM »
Hi

If anyone wishes to email me personally, I will be glad to share
with them the reasons I believe NA/AA/12 Step groups to be harmful
not only to individuals, but to society as a whole.

For a pretty thorough look at this topic, you can also go to
http://www.recovery.org .

These cult groups are NOT an effective means of treating addiction.
By their own admission, 95% of participants drop out within the
first year, 50% within the first month (1989 AA Triennial Report).

In the Stepcraft brainwashing manual "12 Steps and 12 Traditions", a
guide for would-be "sponsors", they even tell stepcraft practioners
to encourage drinking/drug use by potential cultists that have not
embraced the fallacious concept of "powerlessness" in hopes that the
person will "hit bottom" and eventually come into the fold. This is
a sick, twisted, and irresponsible tactic that has resulted in the
death of many people.  When this occurs, the cultists use the
deceased as an example of what will inevitably occur to those that
don't "do it the NA way".  They truly do society, and addicts in
particular, a grave disservice by spreading disinformation on the
nature of addiction and other forms of treatment, the success of
which they routinely deny or disqualify by saying "those people
weren't real addicts".

NA/AA/other forms of stepcraft have all of the earmarks of cults--
Religious orientation; irrationality; rigidity; dogmatism; anti-
intellectualism; a charismatic leader (Bill W[ilson]); a
heirarchical authoritarian structure; submission of the individual
will to "the will of God"; a claim to the ultimate truth; separitism
(us vs. the world mentality); exclusivity (only through us...);self-
absorption (primary focus is on the cult itself); economic
exploitation; going to great lengths to retain members; mind  
control techniques; intimidation; manipulation through guilt;
threats of death (Big Book predicts it for dropouts and
nonbelievers); harrassment; deceptive recruiting techniques; closed,
all-encompassing environments (treatment centers where people are
deprived of all non-cult reading material, contact with family or
friends, or telephone access), etc.

The fact that NA/AA has so well infiltrated and subverted legitimate
recovery techniques and methods in the USA( often using the judicial
system to forcibly recruit new members, a flagrant violation of the
US Constitution which has been successfully challenged every time it
has gone to court, thankfully) and other nations has undoubtedly
resulted in the continued suffering and deaths of many unfortunate
addicts who may well have successfully treated their addictions had
other treatment options been known to, or made available to them.

NA/AA/12 Step IS a CULT with no concern for individual addicts, only
for it's own continuation and cancer-like growth.  It has portrayed
itself as a benevolent organization that seeks to help addicts, when
in reality it has caused untold suffering to the very groups it
purports to be serving.

Thank you

RTP2003
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Offline Therion

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NA/AA/Stepcraft is Dangerous
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2004, 03:53:00 PM »
Im going to have to agree with you on this one....well said..

 I posted somewhere on here that the AA hall here just looks like a cult...painted wooden signs its all dim and creepy...its fucking wierd...
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Offline Cayo Hueso

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NA/AA/Stepcraft is Dangerous
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2004, 10:47:00 PM »
Check this guy out.  He agrees and has researched the SHIT out of this...I LOVE this site.


http://www.orange-papers.org/menu1.html

Republican n. A liberty despising, money worshiping, control freak. Democrat n. A liberty despising, social engineering, control freak.
-- Anonymous

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Offline Therion

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NA/AA/Stepcraft is Dangerous
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2004, 04:19:00 AM »
Yep AA is fucking wierd its creepy and it sucks...

 And the next time someone opens their mouth and I hear the words 12, program, anonymous...
or any stupid sayings like "let go and let god, think think think, or it works if ya work it so work it your worth it"

 I will do my best pit bull imitation and latch onto their throat and shake.. :skull:

 DIE BILL W DIE DR BOB!!! BURN IN HELL CULTISH NON DRINKING BASTARDS!!!!!
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Offline Therion

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NA/AA/Stepcraft is Dangerous
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2004, 04:21:00 AM »
Quote
On 2004-02-22 01:19:00, Therion wrote:

"

Yep AA is fucking wierd its creepy and it sucks...



 And the next time someone opens their mouth and I hear the words 12, program, anonymous...

or any stupid sayings like "let go and let god, think think think, or it works if ya work it so work it your worth it"



 I will do my best pit bull imitation and latch onto their throat and shake.. :skull:



 DIE BILL W DIE DR BOB!!! BURN IN HELL CULTISH NON DRINKING BASTARDS!!!!!
"


I wouldnt be surprised if they have a closed "oldtimers" meeting wwhere they listen to Slayer and fuck dead goats
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Offline Therion

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NA/AA/Stepcraft is Dangerous
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2004, 05:01:00 AM »
I am copy pasting this...AA horror story from that site..
 I love the way that his sponsor seduced and screwed his girlfriend...
 And how when he later Married another woman and had a wonderful child...they talked his wife into Moving in with some Female AAers and within 2 days everyone was trying to screw his wife..
 Good god!!!

*************************************************
   When I first went thru your site, I couldn't believe what I was reading about AA, NA, and most 12 step programs.

      I 1st went to an AA meeting while behind bars. It was the 2nd time down for me for drug possession. I listen to the people who came in, sharing their experience, strength and hope, and thought what the hell, I'll give this a try when I get out.

      Before I went in, I had my own business, which strived for many years. I had the best clients in town. I got in a car wreck, after staying clean for 15 yrs, and got strung out on the medication. One thing led to another, and I got busted. The reason I share this is, I knew people out there in the criminal world who never treated me as bad, or untrustworthy as those in AA and NA.

      When I got out, I attended meetings regularly, slowly putting my life back together. With no help from anyone in the programs. Just hard work. Well I met a girl in the program, we started dating, having a rather good time, till my sponsor, 11 yrs in the program, invited her over to his house, while I was working and seduced her, with this 'spiritual enlightenment', saying things like I was still sick, and I shouldn't be in a relationship. That a relationship would make me get strung out again. Well she fell for it and they slept together. My 1st clue that something wasn't quit right. LOL So much for trust.

      I still hung in there and kept going to meetings. My god son was having problems, so his parents asked me to introduce him to the NA, AA program. He was 15 yrs old, very good looking kid. Well he came in, and all the women hit on him. All the ones over 21. I kept screaming, that seducing him was child rape, but people, all of them, did nothing. They let the women just use him, til he almost killed himself. The whole time these old timers kept telling me I was powerless, and couldn't help him. He needed to do this on his own. I knew in my heart, that this was the biggest bunch of crap. However, dumb old me, believing that I was sick, and needed these people to control my life cause they had some sober time, went along with what they said. What a fool.

      I do believe that there was something to being spiritual in helping us on our journies, so I walked out my front door and went looking, I ended up with the Tsalagi studying, along with the Wampanoags, the Lokota, my travels took me all over. A lot of them had drinking problems when they were young, and had over come them. So what better teachers than the ones who understood. I ran across a beautiful women in the rooms, who wanted to travel, I was headed to the Black hills for a gathering and she came along. Well we got to know each other pretty well and got married, This was 4 yrs ago. We now have a 2 1/2 yr old boy. Very beautiful, and we live at a sacred mountain.

      When we got here, she started goin back to AA meetings. Hooking up with like minded people she said. I got a job at the local hospital, and have been there ever since. Well, I was working the night shift, and my wife was goin to a lot of meetings. That's when I started to get very concerned about her behavior. The people in the rooms started telling her things like, you were sick when you met him. He used you. He is sick and controlling, you need to go to CODA, all this crap. Our relationship started to suffer greatly. I couldn't believe this, I was up for Employee of the Year. She was making a 4.0 and made the presidents list in college, and yet these people were telling her how sick we were. I came home one night, and she had taken my son, and moved in with one of these spiritual women. Said she needed to find herself. Well I didn't handle it too well. I went into the AA meetings and let them have it. I told them if they didn't stay away from my wife and son, that I would shoot every sick MF in the rooms. See all the men had already started asking her out. 2 days she was gone and they were already preying on her.

      Here we were, my career was doing real well, my wife was doing great in school, yet they still told her how sick we were. How they brain washed her into thinking everything we were doin was bad. Not once did these spiritual healers take into consideration my son. His well being. After 5 days my wife and son came back home totally scared to death. lost. I was so glad to have them back, I love them very much. She shared with me, how, over a period of time she was slowly being led into this cult thing. How dangerous and dark it really was. Today we have moved to higher ground, she graduates next spring, and is going for her masters. I just recieved a good promotion and my son dances all the time.

      The reason I share this is, it can be very very dangerous for those seeking a better life, to be fooled by charlatans. AA and NA seem to feed off of peoples hope and faith. All those years when I was dealing with the criminals, never ever was I hurt so bad, like I was in a recovery 12 step program. There is a lot more to this story, this is just a letter that says, thanx and I agree, people need to be told the truth about what exactly is goin on in AA and NA.

Hawk
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Offline Cleopatra2U

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NA/AA/Stepcraft is Dangerous
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2004, 05:24:00 AM »
Please read the topic I started in the "Have you Read it?" Forum, about the book A Million Little Pieces by James Frey.  It's related to this topic.

~ Mindi M.
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he trouble with trouble is it starts out as fun.

Offline Anonymous

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NA/AA/Stepcraft is Dangerous
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2004, 02:04:00 PM »
Those guys are zombies--if you Survived Straight and you still are in NA you're still Straight's puppet. :scared:
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Offline Therion

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« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2004, 07:06:00 AM »
His sponsor FUCKED HIS GIRLFRIEND!!!
Omfg Id so go ballistic!! Thats like..almost, no it IS THE BEST way to get fucking killed.
 I wouldnt kill over a woman..aggrivated assualt
is an entirely diffrent matter...

 If you are really heartbroken Murder suicides always an option..Just kiddin :wave:

 True Story...When I was going to school to be a mortician..we were sent on a call to this old couples house..
 This old man took  12 Guage shotgun and turned his wifes head into a busted melon..
 Then he stuck it in his mouth and repeated process..
 I just remember how bad it fucking stank in there..Good thing I was numbed out on Smack..I felt sorry for the rest o my class it was ....Intense..

 I quit school shortly after that..
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Offline ClayL

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NA/AA/Stepcraft is Dangerous
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2004, 09:42:00 AM »
All this stuff sounds just like a bunch of sour grapes. My sponsor did my girlfriend, boo hoo! You know what, I had a sponsor do the same thing one time and then found out he was the tail end of a long list of "friends" that had been doing her. Fired his ass and dumped the bitch and it was one of the best things that could have happened. Good riddence to a skanky bitch and shitty "friends!" To think that this only happens in AA/NA is fallacy though. The AA/NA crowd has no monopoly on this kind of behaviour. It is only because they all talk about each other to justify this kind of crap that it seems out of proportion.

On the other side of the coin, however, is that AA/NA has indeed helped a lot of people. For me, I find it hard to believe that some people can tell themselves they are doing quite well when they are busy sticking needles in their arms. I tend to think that is more survival than living.

Now, before you guys go ballistic, know this. I attended AA/NA for better than 16 years. I have been through all the books and pretty much know their program inside and out. I drink now and find no difficulty with is whatsoever. I think this way. I don't think the steps and such go far enough or that most ever REALLY work them. To me, the whole thing is about finding the issues that made you want to escape, correcting the damage when the pressure valve blew and making a remedy for the root causes of the entire event. Once done, the the person can go and live a normal life, including drinking, and have fun. It goes against the principles of all "The Steps" to say something can MAKE me behave in a manner that I do not wish. If I do not want to be a shithead no one can make me. Neither, if I want to be an ass, it  cannot be stopped. Well I take that back, the law can throw me in jail, er, well no, I can be an ass there also....

Saying booze makes me behave a certain way is the same as my sponsor stating my girlfriends stuff is SOOOOO tempting it made his "disease" come out. Hell, there were two things comming out and neither of them are called disease. They can be diseased, but that is a different matter entirely. I also believe that making you arms a pin cushion is different. If God had meant for me to do that, I'd have been born with a stint.
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Offline Anonymous

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NA/AA/Stepcraft is Dangerous
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2004, 10:51:00 AM »
On the other side of the coin, however, is that AA/NA has indeed helped a lot of people.

No, they helped themselves in spite of their involvement with NA/AA.
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Offline The Butcher

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« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2004, 11:08:00 AM »
I've never bothered with AA/NA. How are the women?  :cool:
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Offline Cayo Hueso

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« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2004, 12:01:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-02-23 06:42:00, ClayL wrote:

"To think that this only happens in AA/NA is fallacy though. The AA/NA crowd has no monopoly on this kind of behaviour. It is only because they all talk about each other to justify this kind of crap that it seems out of proportion.

I don't think anyone was saying that this only happened in AA.  I think the point is that because of the nature of the sponsor/sponsee relationship and the tight control that a sponsor holds over a 'newcomer' that the potential for abuse is much higher.



Quote
On the other side of the coin, however, is that AA/NA has indeed helped a lot of people.


I agree with the other post...maybe it has nothing to do with AA.  
From http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-pro ... orrelation


Alcoholics Anonymous has plenty of examples of confusion of causation and correlation. The most obvious ones are:

Assuming that attending A.A. meetings makes people quit drinking.
Assuming that doing the Twelve Steps makes people quit drinking.
Assuming that praying makes people quit drinking.
Assuming that doing the Twelve Steps makes people more "spiritual", or more moral. (And of course, this item will be loaded with observational bias -- how do you impartially judge just how much more "spiritual" somebody is after doing the Twelve Steps for three months? And how do you impartially distinguish between "spirituality" and superstition?)
A common use of this propaganda technique is to do polls or surveys of A.A. members, asking them about their drinking habits, and then "discover" that they drink less than some other group of people, perhaps a group of guys at the local bar. Then the "researcher" declares that there is "an association between AA attendance and abstinence from alcohol/drug use", and he concludes that


"Weekly or more frequent attendance at 12-Step programs may be effective in maintaining long-term drug and alcohol abstinence. Treatment providers should encourage and assist their clients in 12-Step participation."
"12-Step programs help maintain abstinence", R Fiorentine, The Brown University Digest of Addiction Theory and Application, Sept 1999, v18 i9 p1
What the "researcher" won't tell you is that if you repeat the study, comparing the people found at the local Baskin Robbins ice cream parlor to the guys at the local bar, you can "prove" that eating ice cream reduces alcohol consumption.

The logical conclusion is, of course:


"Weekly or more frequent attendance at Baskin Robbins may be effective in maintaining long-term drug and alcohol abstinence. Treatment providers should encourage and assist their clients in Baskin Robbins ice cream socials participation."



May your days be joyously challenging and your words artfully true.
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Offline Therion

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NA/AA/Stepcraft is Dangerous
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2004, 01:00:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-02-23 08:08:00, Cobain wrote:

"I've never bothered with AA/NA. How are the women?  :cool: "


Theres usually ...alot of people wind up hooking up in AA/NA..
 It really just seemed like an odd social club and in a way...it is..

 But I am as bad an addict as they come and I was able to stop all illicit drug use without stepping foot in an AA/ NA club..


You may say, "Wait therion, you have been to rehab so many times you know the program" That may be true...to the extent that I understand the philosophy ,mechanics, etc....But do not use it..

Its just anothe5r place/person/thing to try and fill the big hole we are all trying to fill inside...

 Im not pro AA/NA at all...but if you like it and it works and keeps you alive and happy then by all means ...enjoy..
 For myself? I choose not to go and am doing awesome on my own
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Offline Antigen

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NA/AA/Stepcraft is Dangerous
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2004, 11:59:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-02-23 08:08:00, Cobain wrote:

"I've never bothered with AA/NA. How are the women?  :cool: "


http://fornits.com/sounds/better_than_i_am.m3u

Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
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