Resuscitation

[Matt C. Hoffman]

Hi Froderik,

Yes man I remember talking with you at the "survivor" gathering- and of course I have enjoyed reading what you have been listening to lately. (among your other comments of wit and knowledge )  Among many things that we spoke about then was music - It would be wonderful to get together and jam - in fact I am looking forward to doing this - if need be there can be practice spaces found here or they can be found there in that near by city .  I believe we are on the same page, and I will say no more.

Still from reading the- what one has been listening to Topic  - I am really excited about playing- and I think you might be pleasantly surprised as well . Besides I have two acoustics so don't worry about not having an instrument to ( hate to use these words ) bang around on. I got my Strat back and the Lindy p/u s are something else - it really makes the p/u s that Fender puts in their instruments appear to be almost pure  junk, well of course that is my opinion- and we all know that my opinion and 1.75 will get one a small coffee at the local 7-11 or Lucky's market - you know depending where you are.

You know reclusive can be good sometimes lol -  Hey did you hear Carlbrook school finally closed ?  Aint nothing like Fornits - Hope you don't mind that I also give a shout out to "our" friend for his post - comment that he put up on another  site  about fornits. Of course I knew who it was.

I guess in the words of Dr.  Frankenstein from  the Mel Brooks movie of the same name (concerning fornits) -" it is alive". Glad you saw my comment Froderik -we will be in touch.   

peace

Matt   

[Froderik]

I guess in the words of Dr.  Frankenstein from  the Mel Brooks movie of the same name (concerning fornits) -" it is alive".

 

[Che Gookin]

This is a post I made on reddit in response to someone asking what happened to the reddit sub. I think it fits well for here as well.

The industry is always changing, always evolving, and always going to be a problem.
I could probably go on a long winded rant that this all started in the last century with the profits made off orphanages. But I don't think its necessary to belabor the obvious, kids are very profitable in all ways if a person can monetize them.
In the end though, its the same problem that has existed ever since they opened the first poor house in Victorian England. It didn't matter then, and it doesn't matter now, if it is a nice home/school/program.
Because there are only three types of programs, those who are abusive, were abusive, or will be abusive.
I don't spend much time on this sub, it doesn't feel like a very comfortable place for me to post. I used to work in the industry, which means I often draw a lot of ire from posters who were abused by the industry. Fair enough though, I'd be fucking pissed off as well if someone abused me, hell, someone did abuse me when I was a kid, and I am still pissed about it 30 years later. So I don't take it personally when one of the program detainees unloads on me.
As for what you propose, I bring a suggestion. WWASPsurvivors, to be found on facebook, has been doing a support hotline. I don't really know much about it as I quit their facebook group, got hard reading about the 27 or more flavors of sadism from WWASP. But... I do remember them showing a conversation and it did see to demonstrate the capacity needed to implement such a thing not being all that huge.
Not saying you need to set up a survivor hotline, they have one of those. But have you ever heard of fornits forum for wayward fora? Its the literal ground zero of internet activism for the Teen Torture Industry. It got thrown off the internet way too many times to survive, but it's still up. Www. fornits.com
What it did provide in its time was anonymity. Programs sue people, they threaten people, they go after kids who are speaking out. That's a given, I saw it plenty of times on fornits.
What you can consider providing is a means, using new crypto-based software for mobile applications, is a restoration of that anonymity. Make it safe for detainees to speak, to organize, to collaborate again.
Anyway, best of luck, this isn't my regular account, its a literal troll account I use for being a goofus. So I don't expect anyone to recognize me. Which is fine.

What bothers me the most about facebook, is lack of protection against shitlord lawsuits. I mean, on fornits, with a proxy, you can ghost below the radar fairly well. If the admins follow the rules about not deleting or altering posts, they can ghost under the radar.

I do miss fornits at times, but I think the scene has changed and the generational gap has demonstrated the newer detainees are opting for venues they feel more comfortable with. I often think they do so at their own peril.

One too many stories floating around about programs demanding facebook passwords and such.

Anyway, meh.

Kind of fried on doing anything decent for anyone. Found out a kid I donated 25 bucks to for getting him from Oregon to Mobile Alabama  opted to go back to the program he was dumped out of for turning 18. I understand why it happened, just sure as shit don't like it.

[Froderik]

It's good to see some of the core of people that are in the know (who have been involved in the fight for a while, who know and are experienced in dealing with the enemy online and in person) still breathing a little life into these forums. Yes, like you said Che, anonymity is key in this endeavor. 

[Che Gookin]

Seems to me we need to change with the times if we are to retain that core.

[Froderik]

Agree. The question: how can that be done sans anonymity?

[Matt C. Hoffman]

Yes it is possible  without anonymity- if I understand the question-
 
I wanted the Elan bastards/cabal to know that I had survived what they did to me - or what they had done to me - it was rather intense and outright sick - and there were a few times in my life that  being the emotional cripple- seemed like it was going to win and I would just become another faceless statistic of suicide found  in the wake of Elan's legacy. A legacy  imo consisting of and being a criminal enterprise that  fraudulently used  sadistic  criminal  child abuse- and masqueraded it  as therapy , while  profiting in the tens of millions of dollats  -as is/was the case of Joe Ricci's Elan . 

No Froderik and Che - I wanted those inhuman, sociopathic, sadistic miscreants that ran  Elan for and with Joe Ricci, -  Jeffery Gottlieb Sharon Terry ,and Martin Kruglik  - to  know - and  since 2000, they have known.

I gave  a letter to Jackman Wilson, in January of 2000, who was an editor at the Register Guard  in Eugene OR, and that man sent it, unbeknownst to me,  to Mike Sweeney of The Greenwich Times in Greenwich Connecticut. And Mr. Sweeney called to verify that I had indeed written that letter, then I knew- that  those Elan bastards needed to know I had survived.

I also spoke out about Elan at the first "treatment abuse " conference hosted by Dr. Arnold Trebach in the summer of 2001.   

I had survived and many of my friends/peers hadn't - I had to write under my own name -  I have said many times that I stand behind every comment that I have posted about Elan, under my name on Fornits, (and I write under my name everywhere about Elan and I stand by those comments also),  and ihe  imo  criminals that not only ran Elan , though  the   criminals  in Maine state office  that protected and aided and abetted a criminal enterprise Elan Corporation/school  as it was allowed to  exist for close to forty years.

I don't know- it was important to me that they knew, I knew what they have/had  done and what I witnessed done to other residents  and that  I am alive/able to testify about it - and the funny thing for me is that along the past 15 years on this path  I have made many  friends with Elan survivors from across  the close to four decades that Elan fraudulently ran as a imo, a protected criminal enterprise.

On this path and experience  I also learned about the death/murder of Phil Williams.

Phil Williams died shortly after a beat down session thru Joe Ricci's notorious "ring". Phil Williams died on 12-27-82. The story about Phil Williams as I understand it would just break your heart and you would think that it would have closed down  Elan then. Though because people in Maine State government valued money more than the very children's lives they were entrusted to protect - it was simply covered up. And Elan was allowed to keep abusing the living daylights out of children, private placements as well as the many states whose wards were unfortunately sent to Elan. Tens of millions of dollars Joe Ricci and his Elan made on this criminal enterprise. 

I  have written on fornits  that I don't hold anyone who had to abuse me during my time of my re-education of Elan's already  sick abusive  education because of an assault  incident- responsible for that abuse. I no longer feel guilty for that incident because it was  Elan that was sick and its practices were abusing an  already chronically abused child. In my heart I have forgiven those that were forced to abuse me during my re-education time , that  extra year that I got  because of the sickness that was Elan.  I certainly didn't  feel that after that incident that Elan, Joe Ricci and the untrained buffoons that he had working for him had my best interests at heart  because if you know what I went thru -one would be surprised that I didn't succumb to suicide post Elan.

I also have connected with residents that had to work me over because they were directed to do this, by Ricci and his henchmen . And I have told them that all is forgiven and they know and remember what I went thru - and we are friends today. I am grateful to them to be able to tell them that all  is forgiven.

One of my primary care givers use to tell me when I was little , that they were going to make sure that I didn't turn out right since as far back as I can remember -  those words still burn in my ears - Elan was simply an extension of that  sadistic chronic  horrid  abuse that I had known  my entire  childhood prior to Elan. It is no wonder that the assault incident happened.   

I think it is possible to expose and close  without anonymity - but I can understand why someone might want anonymity - God I certainly can understand that notion - and I respect that notion - I wouldn't out a survivor if you paid me.

I have few  friends from Elan who have asked me to leave their names out of this Elan saga . and I gave them my word, and to this day my word holds true, and yes I still stay in touch with them. 

There is a sense of trust I believe among the cross section of program survivors. And to break that trust would be to throw everything away that many  survivors of their prospective programs have  worked  so very hard to expose this hideous troubled teen industry - using children as a monetized commodity , yet to control/profitt off this  monetized commodity thru criminal child abuse masquerading as therapy is  insane criminality at the very  highest level of  criminality/sickness - and this has to end -

I still seek justice for Phil Williams and the many Elan survivors  that didn't make it, and those that  suffer to this day from the fraudulent protected practices of Elan.

I have been posting on fornits about  Elan since 2001, under my name.

One way or another this story has got to end.....

Peace

Matt         

[Che Gookin]

To be fair, not everyone has been out of program as long as you have Matt. Anonymity gives those who are still dependent on their sociopath narcissistic parents a means of talking up without getting sent back or cut off among other things.

[Matt C. Hoffman]

Very True Che – and next year it will be forty years – It is so hard to believe just how fresh it seems and vivid it still is to me. The names the faces ,the violent beat downs - the electric saucings- the absolutely violent and sadistic cowboy kick asses – the sheer lunacy of the primal scream groups/encounter groups, general meetings, the people who lived in the corner and on and on  - memories of Joe Ricci's Elan – Very true Che  " the program" as perceived/created thru Elan creator's eye's,  a misogynistic, violent, common street thug who only learned of "the program"  as he tried to beat a mail truck burglary/ robbery charge by "claiming that he was an addict " - He learned of the scam , then created his own scam- thru quite ironically a scam – he scammed the judge at his mail truck burglary/robbery trial.

I know there were worse places Che- like the boys home - in Mariana, Florida which has its own cemetery for the victims of that place. The White house boys saga – Yes and I sing for justice for Phil Williams, and there are how many boys buried in that cemetery? 

Though Che -for the life of me Elan is always so very fresh and in vivid detail – after all I am one of the ones that snapped because of the "program" - I got the special attention for that assault,  being the one made to feel the hatred to know the hate  - in a house of 25 people,  bthe prejudice continued thru all the houses until I left.   

It is not meant to be funny when I describe Elan as a Synanon on steroids. It was Elan – it was criminal.

It is good to have those years behind me- absolutely  - I look at the first 17 and 1/2 years of my life as literally being in the "program" due to the lunacy in my childhood – so I start all over at 17 1/2 to learn how to be the human being that I wanted to be and knew existed deep inside my very being – despite what Ricci and his henchmen wanted me to believe – or tried to convince me as to what I was -which was just a sick, sick person regardless of having gone thru their fraudulent "program twice" because I snapped due to their lunacy – naw man – It took until I was around 25 to get a handle and a focus- that "guitfiddle thing -and most certainly the good people I found on my path that assisted me -and sure I had to get competent assistance -

These years post Elan have allowed me to grow and study just what the hell had happened to me during the first 17 and half years of my life – To understand just exactly just what the heck Elan truly was.

And then it came time when if I didn't do the right thing and speak out, as timidly as I did at first, that it was surely going to kill me- 2000-I almost lost everything that I valued – so I had to speak out about a place that no one really knew about until 2000- and I have grown more focused and determined in my quest for justice.

Che I don't care why anyone uses their anonymity -  to speak out against their "perspective program"   I guess it is really an age thing and didn't think that "kids " would want to attack their parents incognito instead of their "program" because I know/ understand and see how the "program" twists and deceitfully defrauds parent of their monies at all cost, by playing off their innate parental fears.

My father had to lie to get me into Elan - and Elan knew that something was very wrong because Che- I was not 250 pounds and I was not 6' 5" tall as many witnesses said my father told Ricci – prior to being retrieved to be placed in that hell -hole.  Sure I understand dad was scared  of me because if you beat an animal continually eventually it will turn and bite you as it trys to get away – and that is how I was treated though I was only mabey 5' 4”and weighed 125 at the most back then. Dad swung at me to hurt and I ducked and proceeded to pick him up and threw him across a couch – and I told him in no uncertain terms that he could no longer beat me- in any fashion again. And he wanted the last laugh so he put me in Elan – though he had to lie to do it.     

Ricci knew something was very wrong - when he stood me up in a house meeting during my first full day- he turned to his boys- Gottlieb and Kruglik and asked them if this was the right guy. And they both sheepishly laughed and said yeah that's him.

So instead of doing the right thing, and taking my documented childhood abuse seriously and what I related had been happening to me as far back as I can remember  -  Joe ricci  took the insurance money instead - and then when I snapped  10 months later they blamed me for being the victim of my fathers sadism- that there were other children who had been abused and who the hell did I think I was – and not the fact/truth  that it was their program that was the sick problem.  They played my poor mother – because by that time  dad was free and clear once he got me in Elan  and boy my poor mother - I just told her about the exact nature of just what it was to be in Elan about four years ago. She said it gave her nightmares. Do I hold my mother in a bad light because of Elan – absolutely not.

I can understand that if a parent can't accept their child as who they are because the parent thinks that the child's very core being reflects badly upon them and then they put them in a program( because the program says they can do magic) to change that very being of the child  to where the parent thinks their child no longer reflects badly upon them, then I can certainly understand using anonymity for the very reason you stated – And quite frankly I don't  have an issue with anonymity -

I do however have a problem  when it is the program trolls/ former employees that used their many known puppets to try to silence the out spoken survivors of their perspective program as you are well aware of this happening on Fornits – and I don't see that occurring at all now,  like it did rampantly on Fornits about 5 years ago-when it was out of control.     

And Che as a parent my children know they are loved and what is so cool is that they love me – I guess I am lucky that I didn't succumb to the lunacy that the "program" tried to instill in me- that suicide was really an option because I was so sick. I am sure you remember me being reminded  of this by the former employees of Elan. Fun times indeed.

I am not trying to dominate the rap jack - I am just trying to seek justice the best and only way I know for the many that lay dead in the wake of Elan's legacy and the many former residents of Elan caused to have more problems than they had upon arriving at that horror show,  if I can further expose thru my ways and means this insidious industry by talking and writing about Elan - then I guess that is just a little extras bonus for all concerned.

peace

Matt   

[Che Gookin]

What of the Elan Elite Crazy Crewe that was running wild on the forums several years ago? Whatever happened to those folks?

[Matt C. Hoffman]

I don't know where those folks went Che -   I am glad that the lunacy went away when the rules of no attacking were enforced by the administrators  of this site - and quite frankly I am glad they are gone,  and they obviously weren't wanting justice for Elan survivors. 

I wonder if they were  in Elan - like the person who sent the fax to Angela of heal - If I remember you told the Elan  folks that it wasn't a former resident from Elan who sent that fax to Heal/ Angela  - It eventually made sense what you wrote and I think I know who sent that fax and you are right it wasn't a former resident from Elan.

Why? you don't want them back do you - lol. I am kidding of course. It was rather stunting to the cause.



 

[Che Gookin]

got your email, unfortunately I deleted it on accident. Yes, I do know who sent the fax, not going to say though, what is done is done. The person who did it will never show contrition and quite possibly doesn't even recall doing it due to a degenerative condition of their mental faculties.

Such is life I guess.

 

I don't overly wish the Krazy Krewe would come back, to be honest, I'd prefer put most of fornits into archive and start with something new and more relevant to modern survivors. Though, if I had to choose, I'd take an Elan Krazy over a Hyde Krazy any ol' day. I never had an Elan Krazy call my Uncle's house and threaten him because he thought I hacked his computer, which is absurd, I barely know how to turn a computer on. I've been learning more of late, but that is more due to considering a midlife career change that is more conducive to my long term hearing degeneration, meaning, its hard to teach when you can't hear shit, not so hard to fix a computer when you can't hear well.

Take the lessons learned from fornits and apply them to a new venue. Use anonymity,  crowd sourcing, and the ingenuity of the users to put an absolute hurting on programs. I'm not a survivor of a program, I'll never know the anger you and Rivers of Shit.. Froddy know.

I do know the anger that comes from being a chump.

Yeah, I said chump.

Am I being hard on myself still all these years later? No, but I am being truthful. I was a complete chump for failing to be the sort of person I should have rather than falling in with what R. Lifton describes in his work that explains how good people end up doing bad shit once they become part of a group that promotes that sort of shit.

While Lifton does explain it quite well, it doesn't excuse it. It none the less makes fucking angry at times that young men and women are going to work for these places thinking they are going to help kids. They end up with a heavy heart and nightmares. I've spoken to a number of former program employees who had very little clue what the fuck they were getting into. They weren't survivors of the program, but kids hired after leaving university and needed a job. Stupid kids like I was when I was just out of college.

I'm angry that they get caught up and end up in situations they never would have ever guessed that'd they'd end up in.

Is it their fault?

That's not a complicated scenario imo, I believe we are all ultimately responsible for the evil we do. No areas of grey to be had, yet I do believe there are some people who I'd not hold it against so much as I would others. Some are easier to forgive, though they still need to balance the scales to be forgiven.

Anyway, I'm rambling. I gotta go hit the gym. Had a really bad weekend of classes, lot of problems. Shit happens, life goes on, got more classes this coming weekend, blah blah blah.

I read your email, it was a delight to read, and yes I know what you mean about teen agers.

Hah.

[Matt C. Hoffman]

right on Che - I don't think they will be coming back- moderation is key and the no attack policy is the way to be. 

- I think the crowd sourcing idea is fantastic.  I saw it on another site and thought- that is truly a good idea. I was surprised how it was just shirked off on another person - if one doesn't know how to do it and one is young enough- they can learn  - I am sure they would be able to figure it out - then I am sure there are many other issues as to why  it was shirked off - which I truly understand still it should be supported and I am sure some one can be found to put a face on that project, that would be a survivor.

I hope Fornits doesn't  get put into archive anytime  soon - there are some things that I would like to see play out- that I vigilantly pay attention to. - It is a great resource and as I schlepp thru the various websites/opportunities I find  that I post about Elan - it is nice to be able to link back to an active  Fornits .

Anyways I am tired just got back from doing a little shopping for the family and stuff - I thank you for letting a former resident of Elan post here, it was cool to be able to post the truth and  to clarify - I do have a record of speeding though nothing else in regards to any other serious  criminal record - Felice is right I don't have that much of an experience with the inside of a courtroom - And I do think if  properly prodded  the judicial system can work  for survivors. 

I am glad you understand what I meant and wrote about my "teen-ager " You know for the life of me I could never place my children in any program to do the work of parenting for me. And since I am not a sadist and I love my children - I know and believe that they are going to be fine- really no worries  - they are truly beautiful and amazing growing human  beings with so much to offer- though  at this  stage they  can be very  interesting - and keep me on my toes - as has been  said with out love in the dream -it will never come true.

Che if I don't hear from you, please  have a great holiday season and a excellent start to the new year. 

Froderik - you do the same and holler soon-  and for the other silent readers - y'all have a wonderful holiday season and an excellent start to the new year too.. Ajax if you are reading I hope to continue some of those discussions, the material is interesting and seems like Mr. Sanders has a notion about it also,  though because of the powers that be he hasn't a chance sadly  as  a snow storm happening  in hell.

peace

Matt

 

[Matt C. Hoffman]

Che- didn't see the edit of your post until I had finished writing - and man I understand what you mean about folks that leave college need a job and get the bait and switch pulled on them as they get a job working for these places - thinking that they can make a difference with  at risk children -  and it gets most of  them all - I know who Lifton is- though one book I read recently was Philip Zimdardo's book" The Lucifer Effect".

It deals with the Stamford Prison Experiment, which was conducted by Mr. Zimbardo and compares and contrasts what was gleaned from the Stamford Prison Experiment, ( conducted in 1970) with   the Abu Graibi prison  in Iraq. The  prison in Iraq- which resulted in the issues of  severe degradation and out right torture of the prison inmates - Sadly only a few at the bottom of the chain of command  got in trouble when it should have caused heads to roll and prison terms for many of the rank and file.

Sure what guards  did was wrong but there were so many that should have been held accountable and not just the grunts who foolishly took the pictures - The Lucifer Effect -it is a great read. 

 And Che as a survivor I thank you for the words you wrote - it is not so much anger for me and I speak for myself, and please I hope no one is  confusing the notion of "seeking justice" with being angry.

It is the awe that I hold  for - Elan- that destroyed so many ,many lives and tore families apart the awe that I hold for Elan as it  how it was able to exist for so long and  the fact that many former residents of Elan  are dead - people I knew and people I didn't know but have confirmed the facts of their demise- is what drives me to seek justice,  people like Philip Williams ( who I didn't know ) , Tom Hassel , and I can go on and on with nanes that wouldn't mean a thing to anyone but they are dead in my opinion  from just having come in to contact with Joe Ricci , his program Elan and the untrained ,uneducated  miscreants  that worked there for him.

You know when I was being escorted up to Maine I actually had resigned my self to the fact that this might be a good situation for me-lol- where I would get competent assistance in dealing with  my  sadistic abusive up bringing - that I was going to get help that I needed  in dealing with the monster that was my primary caregiver - and the learned hopelessness that he  had schooled me in would be addressed( of course I was not knowledgeable as to just what "learned hopelessness was at the time - I just knew things were not right with in me- hindsight is 20 -20)  - I was incredibly and understandably a severely depressed child when I arrived at Elan.

It didn't take long for me to see  that this was very bad place, a bad place to say the least - That about a month  and some  after I got there. I figured that if Elan was the bootcamp of life as it billed itself  and all I had known was abuse growing up,  and all I was seeing at Elan was crazy sadistic  abuse that in my child like mind (  shoot I was a child  at 15 and a half years old ) I just figured and put 2 and 2 together that life must be nothing but just this  crazy sick abuse/pain that ( and I talked about this at that conference in 2001 ) I then  made the decision that if life was nothing but sickness/pain  then I didn't want to be part of it  anymore. 

I attempted suicide in Elan by drinking a bottle of qwell shampoo - a flea, tick  and lice poison - Maia Salavitz wrote about that incident  and what I related at that conference  in her book ,by the name called  Help At any Cost.

A friend  found me in convulsions, convulsing in my bloody vomit - I had bounced off my top bunk - of course now I am certainly glad I didn't succeed in that endeavor - lol- to say the least - though sadly  my friend who found me in convulsions that night  - sadly he did succeed in suicide about 8 years ago.

Che I wouldn't consider you a chump - I think you may have been bamboozled  and used  because I believe you really did want  to make a difference in at risk childrens lives and do so  in survivors lives to this day  - even if as you  say you aren't a survivor.  You care and folks can see it.

The Employees at Elan made life long careers out of serial criminal child abuse, and they made Ricci a millionaire ten times over and those are the bastards that are responsible - The folks that signed on and quit after a few months to 6 months- they were the ones that knew what Elan was doing was criminal/sick and they wanted no part because they realized that they couldn't make it a better place for the residents - because it truly was  a sick  fraudulent scam, a golden cash cow that many who had an interest in Elan  did everything possible to keep it from being slaughtered.

People like Morris Fink ,Ronnie Evans, Marc Rosenberg  are as culpable as the lifetime employees  of Elan and what is funny these miscreants can't even apologize for their actions nor can they simply return a phone call from an Elan survivor  because they are such cowards - and as much as honesty was part of Elan's spiel - these folks simply can't be honest as to the sickness they participated in and the harm/sadistic abuse   they had us do to each other. They were the adults.

Kruglik , Gottlieb , and Sharon Terry - the ones who made life long careers out of being serial child abusers to the nth degree and are alive today  simply need to go to prison -where they belong -  and it is something that is very possible - the ones that protected Elan as it operated  in my opinion as a continuing criminal enterprise for close to forty years in that state of Maine also need some alone time in prison - the wheels of justice turn very slowly  but they do turn.

Che the book by Phillip Zimbardo is a really good read - it doesn't explain though,  why former employees of Elan kept on abusing Elan survivors post their Elan experience, but I believe that to work at Elan you really had to be sick in the head and enjoyed being paid for being a child abusing sadist.

Again- thank you  Che for your words concerning survivors- (of really any program). For me in  particular it  means a lot because  no smoke is  being blown, and honesty goes very far in my book.

peace

Matt



 

 

 

 

 

[Che Gookin]

Zimbardo nailed it dead on.

His work should be required reading for anyone working with vulnerable populations.

Reminds me of an event that happened back in the day, started as an experiment, ended up an embarrassment. A program decided they needed to bring down their level of restraints by forming a committee of administrators to meet every week for a review of restraints of the last week.

The program found that none of the admins wanted to press the supervisors too closely on the circumstances surrounding the restraints because in nearly all of the cases the staff had been in the wrong. They ended up never meeting again within a few weeks. Those sorts of staff should be rounded up and shot.

Joe ricci and his ilk have earned a place in hell, and I don't even really believe in hell. But if its there, I hope those cretins are toasting their chestnuts over a pool of flaming brimstone. Bastards the lot of them.