Author Topic: What if parents spent time in program?  (Read 6849 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Whooter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5513
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2013, 08:11:30 PM »
Quote from: "blombrowski"
LGATs are not indicated for individuals with a trauma history (and in fact are likely harmful and counterindicated).  Many but not all programs utilize LGATs.  Many but not all youth who are referred to programs have a history of trauma.

Youth are exposed to LGATs well before it is conceivable that a thorough evaluation can be done to assess if they do in fact have a significant trauma history.  I know you put a lot of faith in third-party referrals, and the ability of a good ethical educational consultant to make this determination.  I don't think that the educational consultant system nor the evaluative (i.e. wilderness program) system is fined tune enough to distinguish between behavior that has trauma that has a root cause, and behavior that does not.

What I think is reasonable to ask of the industry, is to either take the LGAT out of their toolbox or to make damn sure that they're not applying this tool to the wrong person.  For those programs that are dependent upon LGATs as a significant piece of their intervention, this will hurt their bottom line.

My daughter underwent a week evaluation at McCleans hospital in Belmont, Ma to see if she would be fit for wilderness and then eventually Therapeutic boarding school.  It was good money spent in my opinion.   As a minimum I think it would be advantageous if the children were screened prior to attending either one of these.  I saw kids in SUWS that I thought should not have been sent there, but I think they did a good job screening kids for ASR.  Out of the 12 or so kids in my daughters peer group only one pulled out early and I think that was due to financial reasons and she ended up unwed /pregnant and moving away from home.  She lost contact with the group after that.  My daughter has been in contact off and on with with most of the kids they graduated with.  They are planning a reunion and even trying to locate and invite some staff members.
One thing they have in common is they dont put ASR on their resumes lol.

But back on topic, I think they did use LGAT at ASR but they were not as brutal as what I read in the Article psy linked to in another post.  A much softer version was used.



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5605
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2013, 02:50:48 AM »
Softer? Let's let the reader be the judge.
Quote from: "Goodtobefree"
Perhaps as a former student/client/survivor/inmate/whatever you want to call it, I can shed some light on the subject. I was in peer group 17, I was at ASR from October of 2000 to December of 2001. During my stay I was under the impression that the lifesteps were essentially unchanged from the start of the program up until then. I can't say anything about 2002 and onward. As was said before, they were about anger, insecurities, reconnecting with core self, (aka inner child) and forgiveness. They were held in the library in the academic building, and generally started around mid evening on a friday or saturday night, and lasted between 12 and 24 hours. Hard to tell exactly because they made a policy of taking our watches beforehand. All I know was that at the latest, we were asleep in our beds by the normal lights out the next night, except for the 4th lifestep, where we slept in tents overnight outside the library. That was about 36 hours altogether.

They definitely fed us, slightly less than usual, but more than adequate for a day's nutrition. As for sleep deprivation, we were up way past our bedtimes, which were tightly regulated, so any alterations to the routine were quite noticeable. While we were up late, full of anxiety and stress, we were subjected to a lot of yelling, a lot of exercises and workshops designed to illustrate how our behaviors were hurting us. There was a lot of crying, screaming, cursing, quiet time for writing, (read: kids can't talk, counselors walk around reading what's being written and pontificating about the topics being written about. My point is that it was very intense and quite overwhelming. I don't remember every single detail of the experiences, but I will try to include what I can.

The most memorable thing about the first lifestep was an exercise called dyads. This involved pairing up with a buddy and holding them while screaming at the top of our lungs all the things we hated our parents and ourselves for, for minutes at a time. I distinctly remember spitting up blood and being encouraged to continue screaming. There were also short group therapy sessions, there were exercises involving listing all the things our parents had ever done to hurt us, focusing on all the pain and suffering that we'd ever felt and how angry it made us. After all of us were exhausted we read letters our parents sent us about how much they loved us and why they chose to send us away. Needless to say there was a lot of crying.

The second lifestep had exercises where we had to sit in a circle, while one of us would walk around from person to person to hear whether that one or this one considered them a "giver" or a "taker". After we'd all judged each other we had to say to people why we felt this way about them. Some of this took the form of harsh criticism masked as praise. There were exercises involving how we judge ourselves and how we present ourselves to others. We had to wear cards around our necks that labeled us as one thing or another to supposedly demonstrate how restrictive the images we present to people can be. I remember carving images into cubes of sandstone to symbolize all the good qualities we had and who we really were. I also remember listening to Enya and other new age music, and doing a warped guided meditation which, rather than enhancing relaxation heightens emotions like guilt, sadness and fear. It was either in this lifestep or the third that we did an exercise involving manic, happy music, and all of us being instructed to smile until it started to hurt, and walk around laughing and smiling and looking at each other for about 5-10 minutes with the song on repeat. By the end many were crying, some were on the verge of hysteria.

The third lifestep was probably the most traumatic and damaging. It involved internalizing immense guilt. We had to write down anything and everything that we'd ever done to hurt ourselves, told how horrible it was, then forced to look at childhood pictures of ourselves that our parents had mailed to the school. Sitting there for what seemed like hours being yelled at because all the mistakes, impulses, and self destruction we'd gone through were "horrible things that we, as horrible people had done to the innocent children that we were" We were told to imagine all these wrongdoings being visited upon these children, as if we'd done them to some helpless little kid ourselves. Hurting yourself because you're horribly depressed is suddenly akin to torturing preschoolers. Talk about cognitive dissonance! We had to draw a symbolic portrait of ourselves involving all our interests, loves, etc., then tack the childhood picture to it. The other focus of this lifestep was the emotional manipulations or games that we use in an attempt to fill holes in our lives. We acted out all the games we each typically used, and had our peer group guess which one. Games such as playing the victim, using intimidation, attention games, the "everything is fine" game, etc.

The fourth lifestep involved a modified Native American sweat ritual. One of these took place before the first lifestep, almost a pre lifestep. This ritual was kind of like group therapy in a sauna, with some new age religious undertones. We were smudged with sage before entering the sweat lodge, there was a little discussion about purification. We talked about grudges we held, and how they weighed us down. To illustrate this concept physically, we took a long walk in the woods late at night, each of us carrying a rock about the size of a large melon and being lectured to about how we weigh ourselves down by not letting things go. We weren't allowed to put down the rocks, and the walk lasted somewhere between 1 and 2 hours. Being able to set down the rock was supposed to symbolize how good it feels to let go of anger and resentment. Perfect timing, the program's almost over, let's assuage some of the anger that comes from having a year of your life stolen.

As I understand, you've admitted in the past that this description is more or less an accurate description of what your daughter went through.  I should note that most of what he wrote is more or less a copy of Propheets from CEDU (also very similar to what I went through myself which was also a Propheet based workshop).  Similarly, the "dyads" and the giver-taker exercise among others are also part of LifeSpring.  Here is a more complete description of a giver-taken exercise taken from a pro-LifeSpring website (I recommend reading the entire thing with the fact in mind that this survivor of sexual abuse views what she went through as a positive experience, and no doubt wasted untold thousands on further workshops).   My question to you is whether, like the parent seminar, you feel these things are over the line, and whether you would be willing to tolerate and participate in such activities as a participant?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline lifeboat

  • Posts: 31
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2013, 12:23:08 PM »
Brett Carey was my former discovery family head and ran my children's propheet.  They knew how to pick em at Academy at Swift River!
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 12:31:05 PM by lifeboat »

Offline Whooter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5513
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2013, 12:30:17 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
As I understand, you've admitted in the past that this description is more or less an accurate description of what your daughter went through.  I should note that most of what he wrote is more or less a copy of Propheets from CEDU (also very similar to what I went through myself which was also a Propheet based workshop).  Similarly, the "dyads" and the giver-taker exercise among others are also part of LifeSpring.  Here is a more complete description of a giver-taken exercise taken from a pro-LifeSpring website (I recommend reading the entire thing with the fact in mind that this survivor of sexual abuse views what she went through as a positive experience, and no doubt wasted untold thousands on further workshops).   My question to you is whether, like the parent seminar, you feel these things are over the line, and whether you would be willing to tolerate and participate in such activities as a participant?

It was accurate as I remember, but her description was a bit softer than that and they (her friends and herself) recalled being elated after it was over and stayed up for hours talking about the events of the day.  Sort of like climbing to the top of a mountain.  Totally exhausted, a little beat up, but feeling good about yourself.  I think the problem is two fold.  Not all kids are cut out for Therapeutic Boarding schools and not all schools are alike.  So the stories and outcomes can differ greatly.

As I mentioned before this is not something that I would want to go through myself and would probably opt out if I had the option to do so.  But I dont consider it abusive.



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline lifeboat

  • Posts: 31
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2013, 12:48:18 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "psy"
As I understand, you've admitted in the past that this description is more or less an accurate description of what your daughter went through.  I should note that most of what he wrote is more or less a copy of Propheets from CEDU (also very similar to what I went through myself which was also a Propheet based workshop).  Similarly, the "dyads" and the giver-taker exercise among others are also part of LifeSpring.  Here is a more complete description of a giver-taken exercise taken from a pro-LifeSpring website (I recommend reading the entire thing with the fact in mind that this survivor of sexual abuse views what she went through as a positive experience, and no doubt wasted untold thousands on further workshops).   My question to you is whether, like the parent seminar, you feel these things are over the line, and whether you would be willing to tolerate and participate in such activities as a participant?

It was accurate as I remember, but her description was a bit softer than that and they (her friends and herself) recalled being elated after it was over and stayed up for hours talking about the events of the day.  Sort of like climbing to the top of a mountain.  Totally exhausted, a little beat up, but feeling good about yourself.  I think the problem is two fold. Not all kids are cut out for Therapeutic Boarding schools and not all schools are alike.  So the stories and outcomes can differ greatly.

As I mentioned before this is not something that I would want to go through myself and would probably opt out if I had the option to do so.  But I dont consider it abusive.



...

If the child says anything negative about the program there would be consequences.  Whooter what are you trying to sell?   :roflmao:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Whooter

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5513
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2013, 01:46:35 PM »
Quote from: "lifeboat"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "psy"
As I understand, you've admitted in the past that this description is more or less an accurate description of what your daughter went through.  I should note that most of what he wrote is more or less a copy of Propheets from CEDU (also very similar to what I went through myself which was also a Propheet based workshop).  Similarly, the "dyads" and the giver-taker exercise among others are also part of LifeSpring.  Here is a more complete description of a giver-taken exercise taken from a pro-LifeSpring website (I recommend reading the entire thing with the fact in mind that this survivor of sexual abuse views what she went through as a positive experience, and no doubt wasted untold thousands on further workshops).   My question to you is whether, like the parent seminar, you feel these things are over the line, and whether you would be willing to tolerate and participate in such activities as a participant?

It was accurate as I remember, but her description was a bit softer than that and they (her friends and herself) recalled being elated after it was over and stayed up for hours talking about the events of the day.  Sort of like climbing to the top of a mountain.  Totally exhausted, a little beat up, but feeling good about yourself.  I think the problem is two fold. Not all kids are cut out for Therapeutic Boarding schools and not all schools are alike.  So the stories and outcomes can differ greatly.

As I mentioned before this is not something that I would want to go through myself and would probably opt out if I had the option to do so.  But I dont consider it abusive.



...

If the child says anything negative about the program there would be consequences.  Whooter what are you trying to sell?   :roflmao:

You misunderstood, this was after she graduated.  She wasn't in the program when we talked about this.



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5605
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
Re: What if parents spent time in program?
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2013, 02:22:34 PM »
I wouldn't dispute that.  Lots of people think the LGAT experience is a positive one long after it's over.  It doesn't make it a positive experience objectively.  Lots of victims of childhood sexual abuse feel the same way, and carry on to abuse others.  I was elated after I went through my LGAT, and it took me a while to realize just how fucked up, for example, the disclosure circles, actually were.  Same with a lot of the exercises.  It's like an "aha" moment when you realize "Oh dear.  That was just plain wrong and manipulative".  I realized it in program, long before most people, and long before I ever found Fornits.  I don't think any "outsider" can read an honest description of an LGAT and not think "there is something wrong here".  A lot of social pressure is needed to keep adults in such seminars.  Kids, as you point out, don't have the option of leaving.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)