Author Topic: Talk to us  (Read 15550 times)

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Offline Antibody?

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« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2003, 04:26:00 PM »
Why our current Educational Institution is detrimental to children:


Its structure, demands and curriculum are not child-centered or in line with developmental or learning needs
It regiments children's basic physiological needs and fails to allow children to respond to their own needs at times unprescribed by the teacher
The physical body is denied not only liquids, snacks and elimination, but exercise and rest (one or two "recesses" per day end around age 10)
Half of the states in the USA still permit teachers to assault children with paddles
It does not take into consideration that there are seven different learning styles
It provides no time for solitude, small child-led group meetings and independent study
It does not allow children to direct their own learning based on talents, interests and abilities
It fails to function as a democracy to prepare children to function in a democratic society
It is an institution based on control, order and punishment for non-compliance
Mistakes are not viewed as learning experiences, but as failures or infractions
Children?s effort and performance is graded according to the subjective opinions of a teacher
Grades are permanent, undisputable and are used to divide and "track" children according to performance
It labels children who cannot conform as "learning disabled" or "behavioral problems"
It isolates children from their families
It isolates children from the community
Children are forced to take busy work home after being confined for seven hours in school
Homework further isolates children from family time, play time, social time and time for pursuing one?s own interests
Children?s knowledge is assumed by using standardized tests designed to cater to those who excel at structured, pressured, recall of isolated facts, rather than dialoging or expressing knowledge in a variety of ways
It isolates children from taking part in contributing their ideas and talents to society
Learning is considered to be about "getting the right answer" rather than about the process of how to ask questions and where to find answers
Finding answers from peers or parents is called "cheating"
It is responsible for 1000?s of children being prescribed stimulant drugs for their exuberance, boredom or due to the teacher?s inability to provide a stimulating learning environment
It isolates children from interacting with people of various age groups
It creates a climate for children to isolate themselves into exclusive groups in order to establish a sense of power and territory in a hostage-like system (similar to prisons)
Its insensitive, control-based practices offer little opportunity for children?s voices to be expressed, leading to rage, rebellion and revenge
It is an outdated institution based on the work ethic of the early 1900?s
It has refused to modernize to meet the creative and intellectual needs and demands of a modern society

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The historical origins of forced mass schooling and our modern schools
John Taylor Gatto (1996), educator and strong supporter of home schooling, has written extensively about the origins of our current educational institution in America. Schooling did not exist as long as many people assume; In 1650 New England colonies, influenced by Plato?s Republic, attempted to create such a compulsory institution, to no avail. In the early 1800?s, a group of influential secret society ideologists were influenced by the Socialist Prussian system of forced mass-education. Prussians instituted a subordination system to mass-educate the population?s children with the goal of producing an obedient group of people to conform to the Prussian goals of like-minded thinking and servitude to the government, army and to the mines. Gatto writes that "the underlying premise of Prussian schooling is that the government is the true parent of children" (p.44). In 1852, this secret society, known as "The Order of the Star Spangled Banner", was successful in passing legislation for forced mass schooling in Massachusetts. Gatto writes that within the next 50 years, every state followed suit, "ending schools of choice and ceding the field to a new governmental monopoly" (p. 43).

Horace Mann, John Dewey and Kindergarten founder, Friedrich Froebel, were all vocal in supporting an institution that would control and gernericize education to prevent people from becoming from too knowledgeable and powerful. Gatto writes that in the early days of education reading was discouraged. Gatto adds that Dewey believed that with self-directed education, people become "dangerous because they become privately empowered, they know too much, and know how to find out what they don?t know by themselves without consulting experts" (p. 44).

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On what principles was traditional schooling founded?


Schooling was influenced by the idea that self-directed education created dangerous, free-thinking, over-educated people
Schooling was influenced by the idea that children are helpless, blank slates that would never learn on their own if left to self educate
Schooling was influenced by the idea that parents cannot provide an adequate education for their own children
Schooling was influenced by the idea that only "experts" can impart knowledge and adequate education
Schooling was influenced by a governmental idea that isolating children from their parents would limit free thinking, ensuring a more malleable and willing labor force
Schooling was influenced by the work ethic of the 1800?s which valued passive obedience to an authority
Schooling was based on preparing children for lives of servitude to hard labor in factories, mills and army
Schooling was influenced by the idea that education is what happens when an authority feeds facts to a passive recipient
School student management was influenced by harsh, punitive, religious views of children as bad and in need of "reform", regimentation and control
School student management was influenced by the scant knowledge of child development of the times
Student management was influenced by adults showing little regard for the physical and emotional needs of children

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Why traditional schooling is detrimental to society
School teachers love children who are quiet, obedient, passive recipients of the information that they present. Compliant children rarely argue or question the ideas of the teacher. On the contrary, spirited, exuberant children who buck the system are first punished into compliance, or next, are referred for testing to earn a label of "learning disabled", "special needs", or "behaviorally disordered". A remedy of stimulant medication to slow down or focus the bored, understimulated or energetic, passionate child often accompanies these testing results. Some of these children simply learn in a different manner than is being taught, or at a slower pace. Some are exceptionally bright, creative, gifted or talented. Many are abuse and neglect victims acting out their rage in school. Although obedient children are easy for parents and teachers to control and be around, these children often have difficulty with taking initiative, leadership, self-motivation, self-education, assertiveness, free-thinking, self-expression, trust in their own abilities and bringing innovative ideas to fruition. In our modern, technologically advanced society, the very qualities that are required for many of the successful careers of today are the very qualities that traditional schools subdue and squelch.

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Reference
Gatto, J.T. (1996) The Public School Nightmare: Why Fix A System Designed to Destroy Individual Thought? Chapter 7 in Deschooling Our Lives (Hern, M.): New Society Publishers.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2003, 10:30:00 PM »
Excellent! I love Gatto.

May your days be joyously challenging and your words artfully true.
--Ginger Warbis

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Froderik

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« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2003, 11:43:00 PM »
A lot of this is true across the board. Some of this is true in some cases. Some of this is false in some cases. Some schools are better than others. To say that all of these assertions are true about the educational system as a whole would be a stretch at best. Don't get me wrong, I see the truth in a lot of this. Home schooling is great if you feel you are qualified to offer your child an education better than what he'd get at a school and have the means and the patience to be with your kids 24-7. More power to you. Maybe you think that the school in your area sucks. Another good reason to do it. I dropped out of the 10th grade. Look at me, I can actually spell. I spent a lot of time reading and going thru the dictionary when I was in straight. I did this when I "should" have been studying whatever they wanted me to learn. I'm a free-thinker to a fault almost. So I guess my point here is that my views are not based on the fact that I'm "one of them" because I never finished, nor wanted to. I got a GED. So finally I say to each his own. The school system ain't always so bad. Hell, it's a good place to mingle and to acquire drugs.  :rofl: Shit, I could go on, but I think I'll stop here...
Ok, your turn. Tell me why you think I'm short-sighted or wrong, if you think I am...
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2003, 11:47:00 PM »
Yeah, but the trouble is that, over the course of 12 years, you learn that mingling and free trade are subversive activities. Yeah, I think I can do better than that! With one eye tied behind my back!

When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.
--
Anonymous . . . for obvious reasons

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Offline Froderik

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« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2003, 12:03:00 AM »
If I had been more careful, I could have made alot of $$ in high school. But I was a fool. I freely admitted to selling LSD to private school kids. They threw me out. That was fine cuz I wanted out. I wanted to go to a school where there were girls. I got what I wanted and ended up getting laid at age 16. Not too bad.  :grin: she was hot, too...at least to me at the time. A few years older, part Puerto Rican..."YEAH, BABY" (in austin Powers' voice)  :lol:
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2003, 12:19:00 AM »
So basically, default school culture, not any real crime against any nonconsenting other or any real failing on your part, bought you a ticket into the 'I need to be fixed!' social order.

See what I mean?

Preacher man don't tell me heaven is under the earth; you don't know what life is worth;.......If you know what life is worth, you will look for your's on earth.

--Bob Marley

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Froderik

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« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2003, 09:38:00 AM »
Yes...YES! But it was good ol' straight incorp that swindled my parents, not the schools. Oh sure, the private school kicked me out, but I wanted to be kicked out so I could go to a public school. And ultimately, I decided that I wanted to drop out of the 2nd public school that I ended up going to, having failed out academically from the Balto School 4 the Arts (the first one.) I spent about a week or 2 in September in the next school and since I didn't know anyone and wanted out of my parents house, I of course dropped out when I ran away from home. The schools could have been better, sure. That's part of the reason for my dropping out or failing out. But it was straight that was ultimately at fault, and my parents (to some extent) for buying into their BS. School was ok while it lasted, and i can't really blame the schools themselves for ending up in straight. There wasn't much collusion between the two going on here in Balto. like there was in Florida or VA.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2003, 12:15:00 PM »
Granted, it's more obvious in some places than in others. Goose Creek S.C., for example, apparently had a collective psychotic break just last week. Did you catch any news on that?

Aparently, the principal and local police have become convinced the mere suspicion of trade in certain unauthorized euphorics is more dangerous than a SWAT team, high on adrenaline, weapons drawn.

But the same theme prevails throughout school culture. Conform or be cast out. Schools don't exist to serve the needs of the kids. The kids are suppose to pour themselves into the mold designed by the schoolpeople, at gun point, if necessary.

The optimist thinks that this is the best of all possible worlds, and the pessimist knows it.
--  J. Robert Oppenheimer

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Offline Froderik

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« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2003, 01:48:00 PM »
Oh, yeah...I read about that from your link. That was WAAAAY fucked up.
 
Quote
But the same theme prevails throughout school culture. Conform or be cast out. Schools don't exist to serve the needs of the kids. The kids are suppose to pour themselves into the mold designed by the schoolpeople, at gun point, if necessary.

Alas, for the most part, what you say is true. But I still wouldn't give up the memories of my old school daze, lol.

This one's for you Antigen, an old favorite of mine while still in school, ironically:


Hyperactive Child

I'm tired of kissin' ass
I can't sit still all day
You know I know your school's a lie
That's why you dragged me here
'You're a hyperactve child
You're disruptive, you're too wild
We're going to calm you down
Now this won't hurt a bit'

Drag me to the floor
Pullin' down my pants
Ram a needle up my butt
Put my brain into a trance

'No more hyperactive child
Got too much of a mind
Wouldn't you rather be happy?
Now this won't hurt a bit'

Cameras in the balls
No windows, just brick walls
Pledge allegiance to a flag
Now you will obey...
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2003, 02:44:00 PM »
Me either. For me, school was sweet respite from Program influence, most of the time. But if I could trade it all for a life more like Mark Twain's I wouldn't hesitate.
 

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.
-- Anonymous

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Offline Antibody?

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« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2003, 05:59:00 PM »
Thanks Ginger
I love the dialoge. There is a great book written by "Jourard" called "The Transparent Self" that puts schools, hospitals, government, CEDU type schools, religion et al. in their true place as stupifying agents of socialization that attempt to make good, compliant, robot, worker-consumers out of us all. And, isn't that really what all these schools WWASP, CEDU, Public education, religious or dogmatic universities are doing.

There is nothing wrong with education - Free thinking - but there is a lot wrong with being molded to the will of the status quo.

Think Freely: We all must stand up and bitch and complain; and be whoever we really are, be authentic, play, be hyperactive, crack a dirty joke, make fun of a political party, a flag.

And, hey what is this American Flag bullshit lately. Is this supposed to be the symbol of all that is good - ie. Dumb George Bush and Smart George Bomb. Fuck these self important ethncentric xenophobic assholes flying their little flags. And "God bless America????" Fuck you. My bumber sticker says "God bless the whole world." And, I'm going to put an upside down flag on my car, dripping blood and oil that says "God Bless Canada and Mexico." Fuck Patriotism.

It is just propaganda for the stupid people who can't see that economics, politics, public policy, human rights, morals, power, and what is good or bad are socially constructed perceptions that change "as the wind blows and the newspaper directs" (Quote Emerson.)  

Hows that for a Rant -
Hey - I Love You Guys
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2003, 06:12:00 PM »
Here's a favorite essay of mine on the flag and patriotism.

I love Old Glory. I just wonder if I can take it back from the creeps who've waved it all my life.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By King Kaufman
Sept. 18, 2001 | I'm wrestling with the American flag.

It's everywhere now: tiny ones riffling on car antennas, medium ones waving from porches, giant ones yawning from cranes. People are wearing them. Every Old Navy flag shirt ever bought has been pulled out of the drawer this week, and Stars and Stripes 'do rags are all the rage.

There's no flag flying on my porch. I don't have a flag, and they're hard to come by these days anyway -- not that I've tried to get one. And if I had one, I can't figure out if I'd fly it or not.

See, Old Glory and I, we go way back, and we've had our problems.

For most of my life, the American flag has been the cultural property of people I can't stand: right-wingers, jingoists, know-nothing zealots. It's something that hypocritical politicians wrap themselves in. It's something that certain legislators would make it a crime to burn -- a position that's an assault on the very freedom that the flag represents. It's something brandished at times like these by idiots who say things like, "Let's go over there and burn those rag-heads!"

During the Gulf War, I hated the American flag. It was everywhere then, too, on porches and car antennas and over the left breast of every uniformed athlete, all in support of a war I and many others thought to be immoral.

But I also love the flag. Seeing it stirs something in me, even when I'm mad at it, or disagree with those who wave it. I am, after all, an American, and despite being opposed to every single military adventure this nation has undertaken in my lifetime, I'm a patriotic one at that.

For me, though, patriotism is more about the freedom to criticize the government than it is about waving a piece of red, white and blue laundry around and singing "God Bless America." It's about loving our shared national personality -- aggressive, impulsive and open, unimpressed with such Old World nonsense as royalty. It's about feeling at home in a country where the first question asked of new acquaintances is not "Where are you from?" but "What do you do?"; where a loutish baseball star can sit next to a president and say, "Hot as hell, ain't it Prez?" and be loved all the more for it. It's about loving this country's crazy cultural stew -- that "melting pot" that we give ourselves more credit for than we should, but that really does exist.

For me, statements like "America right or wrong" or "America: Love it or leave it," a chestnut from my childhood, are the antithesis of what this country is all about. And those are the sentiments that the flag has come, over many years, to represent for me.

So you'll be surprised to hear that I have an American flag shirt, and maybe surprised to hear that I sometimes wear it -- without irony! -- on occasions such as the Fourth of July. First of all, it's a hell of a shirt since, after all, it's a Grand Old Flag. But I also like what it says. It says I'm an American. Not for me the pretentious Europhile weenieness that sometimes plagues my fellow middle-class American white boys. I'm a proud son of the country that's produced Bart Simpson and Ambrose Bierce, Robert Johnson and Abe Lincoln, Michael Jordan and Doc Holliday. Bruce Springsteen said something in his "Born in the U.S.A." days that stayed with me: "That's my flag too." How did the Republicans and the gun nuts and the xenophobes co-opt it?

There are two kinds of patriots: The "God Bless America" kind and the "This Land Is Your Land" kind. I'm the latter.

On the surface, the songs sound similar: simple melodies with lyrics about America's natural beauty, the mountains and deserts and "oceans white with foam" in one; the Redwood forests, Gulf Stream waters and "sparkling sands of her diamond deserts" in the other.

But that's only because we don't sing all the verses that Woody Guthrie wrote in his song, an answer to "God Bless America," which he hated for its sentimentality and dumb, blind devotion. Here's one of the verses school kids don't sing: "As I was walking, I saw a sign there/And that sign said 'No trespassing'/But on the other side, it didn't say nothing/Now that side was made for you and me." Another verse has "my people" at the relief office, "wondering if this land was made for you and me."

That song's political and social criticism, its questioning, are also part of what make this country great. These things, as much as our culture, our national personality, our country's physical magnificence, are what the flag represents to me.

But when I see that flag flying from a neighbor's porch, I think, "Oh boy, right-wing nut." And I'm not hearing people singing "This Land Is Your Land" over the last week, though "God Bless America" is everywhere.

While I'm not quite a pacifist, I have a pretty simple, even simplistic view of war: You don't fight unless you've been attacked. So now that this country has been attacked, I agree with the vast majority that some sort of military response is warranted. This is a new feeling for me, this feeling that we're the good guys and we're fighting the bad guys. It makes sense that I'd want to fly the good guys' flag, but that flag comes wrapped around a lot of baggage.

There's the bell. The wrestling match continues.

King Kaufman is a senior writer for Salon.

The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled.
-- Plutarch

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Offline Antibody?

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« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2003, 06:28:00 PM »
Wow,
Now that is free thinking. If that is what the flag represents - then I'm a patriot
Fine, Fine words Ginger. I stand corrected and touched.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2003, 06:38:00 PM »
I cried when I found that. I was in such a deep, deep funk after 9/11 and this was such a shining beacon of hope for me. Glad you enjoyed it too.

T'is an ill wind that blows no minds.
--Syadasti

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« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2003, 07:49:00 PM »
Wow,
Yep, I remember watching the Space Shuttle Blow Up Live in the 80s. Then I heard John Denver's dedication "They Were Flying For Me." I Balled my eyes out.

Then comes WTC. It makes me sad that so many people in the world hate us. I wish our people were in control instead of this military-industrial government. We would show them all compassion and love. We would let them choose their beliefs and political systems. We would help them get rid of despots and tyranny. We would ask them to join in peace - not call them names. We would dialouge with words, not bombs. We would take responsibility for installing these dictators and supporting them. We would give the power back to our people and theirs. And I could say The Flag Stands for Freedom Human Dignity and Social Justice.

Americans are good people. I have skipped Christmas and given the hundresds of dollars I would spend on plastic and cloth placating relatives to homeless in blanktes and gloves for them and their children.

When we are at our best that is what we are all about - love and freedom. I take some responsibility for buying into the mass consumerism and paying the taxes that support the politics and the bombs, for supporting leaders that subvert the poor in the "third world," that make them hate us enough to blow us up. Somewhere in my heart I believe that we can build relationships with the Islamic world, show them good will and make friends of them if we can get out from under the Bush. I hope we all can see that vision and create it - not just for the good of the United States, but for the good of humanity.
Peace
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