Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > The Troubled Teen Industry

Apologia - Serious debate only, please!

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Anonymous:
Ginger - defining "program" is  emotional growth or residential treatment, wilderness, rehab, whatever relates to that, not a gymnastics program!

I agree that some parents will send their kid to a "program" if he/she is playing video games to extreme...that's not the majority however. Some will do it because the parents are trying to make a point on who is in control.  But...for most of these kids, going voluntarily is NOT an option.  Heavy drug use, heavy denial of any dangerous behavior in these kids and a total breakdown in the family is why most parents make this decision out of love, not hate.  They don't think their kids are "bad" kids.  They themselves know they have problems that need to be looked at.  

Many of these kids have been labled ADD/ADHD, and outpatient treatment doesn't work.  They are given meds that rarely work for very long.  They begin to self-medicate...beyond the blunt, a lot of them go way beyond.  ADDers exhibit high risk behaviors with no fear of the consequences.  The public schools aren't equipped to handle their "differences" for the mostpart and neither are many private schools.  Their anger is triggered by the smallest things, mostly from frustration because they don't fit in and are with others that are on the same path.   I don't feel ADD is a bad thing, but society as a whole does.  A hundred or more years ago, ADDers were the ones that made things happen, got things done.  Today, it's the other way around and to calm the ADDer, they are prescribed meds.  What they learn and apply in a wwasp program is a gift to all ADDer's.  

They hurt, they hurt deep inside and most of them don't even know why they are hurting.  The cutting, the eating disorders, the sex, running away, giving up in school, the destruction of property...and the alcohol and drugs are all ways to cover up their hurt.  Even the cutters think they feel good.  

So you say you don't think this should be done involuntarily?  How long should a parent beg their child to go willingly?  If it is court ordered IT IS STILL INVOLUNTARY. If a therapist recommends they go to residential treatment, IT IS STILL INVOLUNTARY.  It's just the judge or the therapist doing the same thing the parents are doing. In most cases, their dangerous choices have nothing to do with their rebellion against authority.  Hell,  rebellion is "normal" for any teenager.  It's when it goes beyond that we must intervene. It's our job as parents.

Out here in the real world there are kids doing what they could go to juvenile detention for...they just aren't getting caught by the police.  BUT, many are caught and the police don't do anything unless it's a felony.  

There are waitlists six months long at most state funded rehabs or treatment centers.  Some say they must be a certain age, be high school drop outs, be drug free, etc., to get help.  So what's a parent to do?  Live with the chaos?  What's that going to prove or do in the whole family, especially if there are other kids in the home? Should they just wait it out and hope for the best while the next few years tear their family apart.  They choose to pay for the help when there are limited resources in their community in the hopes of bringing their family back together.  

Most parents are not getting this kind of help because they have more money than brains...most don't have this kind of private pay tuition at their disposal. These parents are not approached by parents that have a kid in the program.  These parents beg for help from therapists, law enforcement, the schools and hit dead ends.  They are searching the net for answers.  When they call a place like wwasp, they are already in need of intervention.  No one has to talk them into it.  They are ready for it in most ways, though emotionally and financially it takes all the love they can muster to go through with it and continue for the long haul.

I absolutely DO NOT agree that most parents are to solely to blame for what has happened.  On one hand you say that teens have a mind of their own and should be allowed to test their wings, and on the other you blame the parents for the choices their kids make and for their choice in intervening when their kid is destroying their life,  through a private pay program.  This is not an Ozzie and Harriet world anymore. Each family has their own view of what "destroying their life" means.  Fear plays a major part in this decision.  Fear of the unknown has many families making this emotional choice.  

A teen that successfully graduates a program of this nature will not say the program did it. They will tell you they did the work, the deep inner work, to do it. The programs provide the resources.   They are successful because they apply valuable lessons learned every day if they choose to.  This program is not some miracle cure.  You've gotta want it, or it won't work.

In response to other posts - just my personal view: Someone else posted about petty rules.   Don't look out the window?  Don't they do that anymore in the public schools?  Don't look at the opposite sex?  Hey, maybe some guy will break a jelly bracelet on your daughter's wrist and go have sex with her on high school grounds - Petty rules are everywhere and most of us don't agree with them and may break them if we think we can get by with it.  I think it's more about learning to be aware of rules and how we handle them.  By the time they get to the upper levels of their program, following rules becomes easier.  When they return home and go to school or work, the rules are the same in many ways. In the program, if they don' t follow rules, they loose points and privileges - or have time out away from other students - or if they are angrily lashing out at others or property, they may be restrained.  In public school, they will be suspended or have detention,  be restrained or detained by campus police if they are destroying property.  At work...they're put on probation or fired.    We may not agree with the consequences, but if we are made clear on what is acceptable and we don't follow the rules, then we also know the consequences and can't blame anyone but ourselves for the outcome.  

I don't buy "my parents did this to me" - If smoking weed or drinking is against the parents values, the parents will do something about it, or not.  If shoplifting, stealing money, screaming obscenities, punching holes in the walls, dropping out of school, running away, internet dating/sex, cutting, etc., etc., is against the parents values, they will do something about it. What a parent does is their choice, not mine, not yours.  Sending a child who is depressed to a program like this could be the best way for them to find those parts of themselves that they feel good about hidden inside the outside behaviors, but only if they are open to it.

What is degrading language?  Seeing through someone's bad choices and letting them know you don't accept it?  They are learning to define their personal boundaries of what they want in their life.  It doesn't have to be degrading to get the point across.  Is it painful to finally look at it?  Could be!  Do some kids verbally attack?  I would say yes, they are learning the "how to" of feedback.  They usually eventually get that "from the heart" feedback is better taken than attacks.  BTW, when I was in high school, my peers were much worse when I didn't want to join in their choices.  

Maybe some programs censor outgoing mail.   To my knowledge, wwasp programs don't do that.  How else can you explain all the garbage they write to their parents in the beginning?  I believe they do censor incoming mail, not for written content, but for items that they aren't allowed to receive.  Agree or disagree...it is what it is.

I see a lot of parents that want the program to look a certain way, to fix their kid and do it in a pre-determined length of time and when it doesn't happen, they lash out at the program.  It's not about the program, it's about their expectations.  It's a lack of trust in those that do this everyday and know it's not a "fix." It really IS up to the kid to take it and fly...or not.  

No one predicts the future.  It's an aware parent that can see what is happening right now and what needs to be done,  Will it go away if they ignore it?  Like I said, no one can predict the future that I personally know!

Antigen:
Anon, you've brought up about a dozen different issues. I could give you a few pages on each. But I don't think anyone's going to read and follow all that, you or I included. So I want to address just a couple at a time.


--- Quote ---On 2003-12-17 13:24:00, Anonymous wrote:

This is not an Ozzie and Harriet world anymore.

--- End quote ---

It never was. The Adventures of Ozzie & Harriet was a sitcome. It was fiction. It's a good thing the real world was never like that, too, cause sex didn't exist, even within marriage, there were no bathrooms as far as anyone could tell and no one really knew what the Ozzie did for a living. Was he mafia or something?

In the real world, things don't always go according to plan. Sometimes our plans are bad and our expectations unreasonable. Sometimes you just have bad luck.

You mention, as a criteria for placement, "heavy denial of any dangerous behavior." I read that as the parent is convinced there's something horribly wrong with the kid, but the kid disagrees.

Well how do you know you're right and the kid is wrong? In the criminal justice system, even juvenile, at least to some extent, we have tomes of policy and practice to determine who's right and who's wrong. And it's all based on tried and true customs going all the way back to the Magna Carta. If I do say so, the standards of American justice, when held nearly sacred, are as close to perfect as any human civilization has ever achieved.

By comparison, what's your litmus test for determining that the kid is the one with the problem, not just an overworried parent.


--- Quote ---Many of these kids have been labled ADD/ADHD, and outpatient treatment doesn't work. They are given meds that rarely work for very long. They begin to self-medicate...beyond the blunt, a lot of them go way beyond.

--- End quote ---

You should look into the long term effects of those meds. Not only do they sometimes not "work" for very long, but they can also cause the same long-term damage that recreational or self medicating users get. In this case, it's litterally, it's the fault of the parents and professionals. It still amazes me that people will feed their little kids powerful amphetamines, but then get all bent out of shape when the same kid discovers that pot is really not such a bad thing.


--- Quote ---ADDers exhibit high risk behaviors with no fear of the consequences.

--- End quote ---

Or maybe you're overly anxious and they're not? It's possible, you know.


--- Quote ---The public schools aren't equipped to handle their "differences" for the mostpart and neither are many private schools.

--- End quote ---

We're not really making kids any differently than we ever have. It's the schools and the demands they place on the kids that have changed.


--- Quote ---Their anger is triggered by the smallest things, mostly from frustration because they don't fit in and are with others that are on the same path.

--- End quote ---

Or maybe it's triggered by little reminders of something much more significant. Maybe it has something to do with the adults in their lives constantly trying to convince them that they're damaged goods. It's like Muhchousen by proxy.


--- Quote --- I don't feel ADD is a bad thing, but society as a whole does. A hundred or more years ago, ADDers were the ones that made things happen, got things done. Today, it's the other way around and to calm the ADDer, they are prescribed meds. What they learn and apply in a wwasp program is a gift to all ADDer's.

--- End quote ---

OMG! This is just heartbreaking. You know your kid is not damaged, but possibly gifted. And you go along with the plan to break him just to make him fit into a defective mold? No wonder you have problems in your relationship with him!


--- Quote ---They hurt, they hurt deep inside and most of them don't even know why they are hurting. The cutting, the eating disorders, the sex, running away, giving up in school, the destruction of property...and the alcohol and drugs are all ways to cover up their hurt. Even the cutters think they feel good.

--- End quote ---

Maybe they hurt because they think you don't love them, because you're bent on changing who they are, because you never take their side and defend them from abuse.


--- Quote ---Out here in the real world there are kids doing what they could go to juvenile detention for...they just aren't getting caught by the police. BUT, many are caught and the police don't do anything unless it's a felony.

--- End quote ---


Then you go on to mention begging law enforcement to do something. It honestly sounds to me asif you're bent on believing there's something wrong with your kid, the cops and teachers don't agree with you so you've sought out someone who, for a heafty fee, will sell you the martyrdome you so crave.

I hope your kid gets out of this with some semblance of self respect and sanity. And I honestly hope that, one day, you realize your grave error and sincerely apologize to him. You just can't imagine how much that can mean to a kid. Even if it comes later on, when they're grown.
I do not believe in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance.

--Thomas Carlyle
--- End quote ---


_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
   10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous

Anonymous:
Antigen wrote: OMG! This is just heartbreaking. You know your kid is not damaged, but possibly gifted. And you go along with the plan to break him just to make him fit into a defective mold? No wonder you have problems in your relationship with him!"

Ginger - You're reading something into this that is not there. ADDer's are gifted, they're smart, creative and wonderful people.   Change them?  Hell, no.  It's about finding out they're NOT damaged and can get past the meds that were prescribed by someone at home.  Getting past the teachers telling them they're stupid for not paying attention or doing their homework.  Part of it is about learning to "think" before acting.  Changing their core being is not a part of it.  It's changing the way they look at themselves.    I'm an ADDer! Breaking a kid to fit some defective mold is your definition. Unless "breaking" means taking a deeper look at what "can be." What does BREAKING mean to you?  These kids are not broken.  

Each and every child, whether ADD or not, deserves the best love and support a parent can give them.  Sometimes that's not enough.

I read that you think that there is never a reason to seek help when the parent truly feels there is a need.  It's like saying the parent doesn't know their kid better than a judge or therapist?  Can you give me more of your thoughts on this?  

So much can be assumed in the written word, or in conversation.  I really am not here to prove you wrong and me right.  I'm not looking for answers to "why" parents do this. I made a statement about Torture and you made a separate thread for this asking those that responded not personally attack.  You're judgment of what I am writing, your responses especially toward the end feels like an attack and an assumption that I have a child in a program.  FYI, I don't.  

I was in a program in Caliente, Nevada when I was 14 - over 35 years ago.  :wink:

Anonymous:
P.S. - here is a link to where I was - back in 1969:   http://caliente.state.nv.us/ ...but that's a whole other story!

Janet:
Ginger, what a profound statement, "OMG! This is heartbreaking.  You know your kid is not damaged, but possibly gifted.  And you go along with the plan to break him just to make him fit into a defective mold?"  

This parent still does not answer the question on why there must be stupid rules.  Level 1 cannot look people in the eye, cannot look out a window, cannot pass through a doorway without permission first, etc.  Stupid rules are not the same as reasonable laws!  He does not answer why the children must be locked up miles away from home and cannot see his parents.  He does not answer why they cannot have tasty food and food of reasonable quality.  (One mother seemed thrilled to find out that if someone complained about the food, he would lose the right to have any condiments.) He does not answer why berating the student is ever good.  He does not answer why punishments in OP can last days or weeks and what good that does.  

No child should be incarcerated without a court proceeding. No child should be put into an institution that is not monitored by the juvenile justice system. There needs to be a law with teeth to stop parents from sending children away from home and away from local child protective services.  School districts could report children missing from their rolls to child protective services who can then see that federal and state laws are being obeyed by parents.  The states strapped by budget deficits can fine parents who break the law and in the process fund the service. (After all, if the parents can afford the school, they can afford a hefty fine.}  The present interstate law, unfortunately, is weak. Also, by monitored, I mean many unexpected visits.  

Unfortunately Ginger, these parents are SOLD on WWASP and we are talking to my mother's proverbial brick wall.

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