Apologia - Serious debate only, please!

[Anonymous]

I was invited into this debate for a post on what torture could mean.  There's a lot of different subjects from torture, to seminars and a lot in between.  

I read the info on cults.  I was raised in the Catholic church, including parochial school and I got sucked into a certain way of thinking, which when I got older, realized it didn't fit what my gut told me.  It wasn't until years later that I found that I didn't have to attend a church to be spiritual and my spirituality was my own, not anyone elses.  I don't look at a catholic, jew, buddhist, christian, etc., etc., as wrong.  Whatever fills their heart is all that should really matter, huh? Is organized religion a cult?  From what I've read it could be, but I wouldn't stretch it to actually believe it is.  

My belief, or my knowing is that the wwasp programs do not tell anyone how to feel or think.  It, however, gives them ways to really find what is important to each individual and family.  The kids, in the program, have rules to follow, and it really is their choice in how they handle that.  If a staff person is doing something that isn't part of that and pushing their beliefs on that child, then there is a problem.  Rules and laws are a part of everyday life, is that not so?  We can break a rule or a law and may get caught and pay the consequences, whatever that is.  Those consequences are known and when anyone breaks the rules or laws, they usually know what the consequences are.  


If you choose to say the definition of "breaking a child" is to give them rules with a set of consequences, then I agree.  I have been working with youth for many, many years...my own children.  Each stage has it's different challenges, and the teen years are the most challenging. I will share what I've learned and continue to learn in a separate post or thread.

Deborah - YOU ARE NOT DAMAGED because you chose not to complete an 8 day seminar that had you being filmed in front of everyone.  YIKES!  My first response when you said that was that you may not have worked through what came up for you. What you think I meant could very well be the mirror for what you think yourself. Every single person that goes to any seminar will have their own experience.  If a person choses not to attend then why make it like it's something I slight you for?   Read anything into it you want to.

[Antigen]

If you choose to say the definition of "breaking a child" is to give them rules with a set of consequences, then I agree.

I get the feeling you have no idea what you're talking about here. And, after all that we've talked about in this forum and all the information that's available to you, I have to conclude that your ignorance is very much intentional.

We're talking about kids who, for watever reason, have parents who are freaked out by their behavior. Some of these kids have real problems that would seriously worry a reasonable parent. Many do not. The only diagnostic criteria is the troubled parent.

These troubled parents, on the advice of people who they presume to be experts, then either lie to their kids to trick them into going to the program or hire a couple of thugs to literally kidnap them out of their beds at night.

From there, we proceed to the strip search and other degrading initiation rights. After that, we're not talking anything even close to what can be described by any reasonable person as "rules with a set of consequences". We're taking about constant and intense psychological and emotional abuse. Of course, we can sit here all day long arguing about what really goes on inside these camps. Neither you nor I will ever be allowed to witness it firsthand and, as noted previously, some aspects of the Program are sworn secrets.

So how does anyone other than former Program participants know what goes on? Some of us ask as many different former participants as possible and then guage the liklihood of which ones are telling the truth based on the consistency of their stories.

If there's nothing going on here but a little good old fashioned rules with a set of consequences, then why all the program closures? Why are WWASP programs always making headlines? Why all the investigations? Why are all these kids and so many parents saying the same things about the same people consistently over the course of years?

The great irony here is that any kid who finds themselves in the situation WWASP exists in would be told by program proponants to quit blaming others for their own problems.

Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom.  It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave.  
-- William Pitt, 1763

[Deborah]

***Is organized religion a cult?***

I think it does have many of the attributes of a cult and fits the broad definition, as do many social organizations, such as public education.

***My belief, or my knowing is that the wwasp programs do not tell anyone how to feel or think.***

It is not always accomplish overtly. Just as my son was not told which "lie" to concoct, but he knew what they wanted to hear. When that happens day in, day out, that can/does condition one's thinking and processing.

***If a staff person is doing something that isn't part of that and pushing their beliefs on that child, then there is a problem.***

Would that include the belief that it is beneficial and necessary to demand that a child not look at themselves in a mirror or look or talk to the opposite sex, to lie in a face down position on the floor for hours/days, to have no contact with their parents and the outside world...

***Rules and laws are a part of everyday life, is that not so? We can break a rule or a law and may get caught and pay the consequences, whatever that is. Those consequences are known and when anyone breaks the rules or laws, they usually know what the consequences are.***

Every heard of the consequence that fit the "crime"? I have never been punished for looking in a mirror, or for crying because I was scared or homesick, or any of the other unreasonable abuses ex-participants report.

***I have been working with youth for many, many years...my own children.***

Did you subject your children to the rules above? And what consequences did you issues if they violated a rule?

***Deborah - YOU ARE NOT DAMAGED because you chose not to complete an 8 day seminar that had you being filmed in front of everyone.***

Are you implying that I might feel that way? Not at all. Or are you suggesting that I wouldn't be perceived as "damaged" (your word) or "not ready", by WWASP/RR participants had I walked out of one of their seminars? I disagree.

***My first response when you said that was that you may not have worked through what came up for you.***

Nothing "came up" for me. Other than realizing that the leader was not someone I wanted to "follow". That he was not qualified- to my standards- to "help" people.

***What you think I meant could very well be the mirror for what you think yourself.***

Not following you.

***If a person choses not to attend then why make it like it's something I slight you for? Read anything into it you want to.***

I was not implying that you personally would slight me. You are combining my post in which I shared my experience of an est/LS based workshop, with my comments of how seminar advocates view those who refuse to participate or quit; twisting it around to suggest that I'm concerned about being slighted (by you of all people); and that I haven't processed what came up for me. I feel very clear about the experience.

[Anonymous]

Deborah wrote: "It is not always accomplish overtly. Just as my son was not told which "lie" to concoct, but he knew what they wanted to hear. When that happens day in, day out, that can/does condition one's thinking and processing."

Deborah, just for clarity sake - your son was not in a wwasp program.  Is it possible there is a difference?  What the wwasp grads have told me is that "you can't bullshit a bullshitter."  Explained to me as: if they are saying what they think you want to hear, they can see right through it.  THey might be able to fake it for the staff once in a while, but they can't fake it with their peers for very long.

Please read the link I posted in ANOTHER DEBATE thread.  I'd love to hear your take on what it says.

[Antigen]

Sure, it's possible that WWASP is completely different from all other confrontational TC programs. However, it is extremely unlikely once you take into account the hundreds of eye witnesses who describe all the same brainwashing methods.

"You can't shit a shitter" was common lingo at The Seed and Straight, as was "deadinsaneorinjail". Then, of course, there's the well known fact that the WWASP programs have their roots in Synanon, just as The Seed did. Oh, and btw, so did Elan. You might be interested in a recent post to that forum.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 94&forum=2

"They might be able to fake it for the staff once in a while, but they can't fake it with their peers for very long."

That's just not true. You can fake it for an extended period of time. Many people do. The trouble is that you have to be completely convincing all the time so you wind up losing track of which was the truth and which was the lie. It's truely madening. Especially when the lies you're required to tell are all horrible things about yourself. That's what drives some kids to harm themselves. That's the sort of thing that could drive an already troubled girl to take a dive, head first, from the 4th floor onto a concrete courtyard.

When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, "Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?"  
-- Quentin Crisp

[Anonymous]

Ginger - I can't say why wwasp programs are in the news, nor the stories that are written on similar forums.   I only go by my own experience of those I've met in person and who nothing to gain or lose by being honest with me.  I never hear these stories first hand that I see written in the newspapers, but that's not saying they aren't actually true.  I'm not naive, but I'd prefer to go by what I do hear from those that have been there.  I've met a lot of these kids through my seminar experience with their parents.  

How do you personally sort out what you read from what is fact?

Because your program experience in STRAIGHT was bad, you may tend to believe that everything you read is true. or not.  Because my experience out of the program, with the kids I've met, the parents I've met and my own seminar experience, I tend to believe what I know. ANd I really do sort through the other stuff.  This PURE company has really tainted the waters of what is real and what is not.  It's difficult for me to believe much of what I read on this forum due to that and the constant battles going on. From what I've read, it looks like thsi company has contacted newspaper after newspaper, public officials, etc., to create a lot of what has been reported.  Knowing newspaper reporters from an experience I had in the past, I know they omit and sensationalize a bunch.  But I also know that's not all there is to it.  

I do believe you.

[Antigen]

On 2003-12-20 18:23:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Ginger - I can't say why wwasp programs are in the news, nor the stories that are written on similar forums.  

... then ...

It's difficult for me to believe much of what I read on this forum due to that and the constant battles going on. From what I've read, it looks like thsi company has contacted newspaper after newspaper, public officials, etc., to create a lot of what has been reported.  Knowing newspaper reporters from an experience I had in the past, I know they omit and sensationalize a bunch.  But I also know that's not all there is to it.  

You seem to imply that you think PURE is somehow responsible for all of the bad press. That's not even possible. I watched a piece about WWASP on 48 Hours before Sue Scheff ever even put her daughter in Cross Creek.

These reports are coming from a lot of different people who don't even know eachother. Yes, the news media does slant issues. Everybody does. There's just no getting around that. That's why it's important to take in a lot of different points of view and see what stands up.

You look at the glowing testimonials from happy WWASP parents as proof that it's a good thing. I see things like a WWASP mom bragging that her son is set to marry just the right girl cause she knows the girl will drop him in a hot second if he ever touches a beer again. I don't know about you, but that's not the kind of girl I'd want my son to marry. I'd want him to marry one who will stick by him through thick and thin, just like mom and dad have done.

I do believe you.  "

Well thank you. I appreciate that.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.

--Thomas Jefferson

[Anonymous]

I'm curious as to how the anon WWASPS parent feels about the pending direct-action (HURON)lawsuit? Presuming it will be filed some time in the near future, what does Anon think the impact of the filing will be upon parents with children currently in the program?

[Anonymous]

I think I'll just jump in here and see what comes out of it!

You know some parents just don't get it, Ginger.  The parent that wanted to keep her son on track by marrying a girl that would drop him like a hot potato for drinking doesn't get it.  Maybe she went through all the seminars and never applied anything she learned, who the hell knows. What a lame reason for liking the girl.  Shit!  Sounds like she doesn't trust her kid.  That just solidifies the notion that if the parents don't do the work to do whatever it takes to rebuild what it means to be a family, it won't work.

Yep, stories about programs have been around as long as there have been programs.  I think what the ANON was referring to was about the recent stuff because it's been stepped up a lot since Dundee Ranch was invaded and shut down.  The jury's still out on what really happened. What's been on this forum since then seems to point at the PURE camp in instigating a lot of the reports. Just my observation.

As far as the "stupid rules" thing. How lame!  No matter how stupid a parent thinks the rules are, did their little darling follow rules at home?  Didn't they think those rules were stupid?  Whether it's don't look out the window, or don't break curfew, they all looked at them as stupid rules. I think it's a great thing to start from square one on rules in the programs.  You know what it's all about?  It's about "STOP and THINK!!!  Becoming conscious of the choices seems to me the "reason" for those stupid rules.  DUH!!!
Anyone know the definition of co-dependent??  If that's a big gripe on programs, get real!

As for allegations of abuse.  This is getting really, really OLD!  GOOD GOD PEOPLE, WAKE UP!  If it's true then it will come out in a court of law.  Until then realize that a troubled teen will say anything, especially to a weak parent, to get out and fortunately for the kid, it works, so they can get back to misbehavin' "Oh, I'm so sorry I did that to you little jimmy.  Let me make it up to you and buy you whatever it is that will make you happy now and I'll let you do anything you want to do to destroy your life. Here let me help. I'll never doubt you again. I know you'll ALWAYS tell me the truth."  
Ryan F has proved that!  Has anything bad ever happened?  Are there humans running these programs and working for them?  Hell, I got macked in grade school by a slap happy gym teacher for chewing gum. That teacher was fired, but they didn't close down the grade school.

[Anonymous]

Ooops, forgot to respondto the CULT thing!

"Ginger shared this: Dispensing of Existence - The group's totalist environment emphasizes that the members are part of an elite or special group. Outsiders are considered unworthy or unenlightened. This thinking leads to the thinking that their whole existence centers on being in the group. If you leave, you join nothingness. This is an extension of doctrine over person. Existence comes to depend on creed (I believe, therefore, I am), submission (I obey, therefore, I am) and total merger with the group's ideology. This is the final step in creating members' dependence on the group."

IS THIS A CULT FORUM?  AREN'T PROGRAM SUPPORTERS OSTRACIZED FOR OPINIONS THAT AREN'T THE MAJORITY HERE? NO, THIS IS NO MORE A CULT FORUM THAN WWASP IS A CULT -  BTW, DON'T CATHOLICS HAVE TO GO TO CONFESSION, DOES THAT MAKE THEM A CULT?  CALLING SPECIALTY BOARDING SCHOOLS A CULT "IS" REALLY STRETCHING IT.

[Anonymous]

On 2003-12-20 22:03:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I'm curious as to how the anon WWASPS parent feels about the pending direct-action (HURON)lawsuit? Presuming it will be filed some time in the near future, what does Anon think the impact of the filing will be upon parents with children currently in the program?  



"

What is the near future?  Heard that in the not so distant past.  :rofl:

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2003-12-20 22:17:00, Anonymous wrote:

BTW, DON'T CATHOLICS HAVE TO GO TO CONFESSION, DOES THAT MAKE THEM A CULT?  CALLING SPECIALTY BOARDING SCHOOLS A CULT "IS" REALLY STRETCHING IT.  "

When was the last time you went to confession in front of 300 people??? :evil:   Then, after revealing your deepest, darkest secrets did the priest later use that very same information to "humble" you?  How dare you make that comparison.

A free people ought...to be armed...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/188301123X/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> George Washington, 1790

[Antigen]

Ok, here's an example of what I'm trying to say about consistency.

First you say this:

On 2003-12-20 22:06:00, Anonymous wrote:


You know some parents just don't get it, Ginger.  The parent that wanted to keep her son on track by marrying a girl that would drop him like a hot potato for drinking doesn't get it.  Maybe she went through all the seminars and never applied anything she learned, who the hell knows.

Then, within a coupld of paragraphs, you contradict that sentiment entirely.

As for allegations of abuse.  This is getting really, really OLD!  GOOD GOD PEOPLE, WAKE UP!  If it's true then it will come out in a court of law.  Until then realize that a troubled teen will say anything, especially to a weak parent, to get out

Sounds to me asif that mother we were talking about mastered the seminar material beautifully! And this is perfectly conistent with the tone and philosophy I remember from my childhood affiliation with The Seed and Straight whereas your statement above, implying that the Program is all about dignity and respect sounds like something out of the Twilight Zone.

Hell, I got macked in grade school by a slap happy gym teacher for chewing gum. That teacher was fired, but they didn't close down the grade school.   "

Yeah, we had a girl knocked up by a gym teacher in our little Christian highschool too. It was very sad. The guy was fresh out of college. The girl was no run around. It was just a case of verbotten love. I heard they married and lived relatively happily ever after.

But he was the only one. This was not something that we heard about repeatedly, over and over, from different kids and parents continually and consistently. Our little school never shut down a program under investigation, never changed their name. And let me tell you somthing, our principal would never have dreamt of passing the buck as Ken Lay and the Lichfields routinely do!

In those vaunted seminars, they tell you that everything that happens to you is your fault. But when hundreds of different people all make the same complaints about the same people, they claim that WWASP is not Dundee :rofl: Then they change the name of the program, move to another location and pretend they've solved the problem.

How can you not see this hypocracy?

No citizen of a liberal and democratic nation profits from a victorious war.
--Ludwig von Mises

[Antigen]

On 2003-12-20 22:17:00, Anonymous wrote:



IS THIS A CULT FORUM?  AREN'T PROGRAM SUPPORTERS OSTRACIZED FOR OPINIONS THAT AREN'T THE MAJORITY HERE?

You're still here. No one's making you read or respond. There's no consequence for your dissenting opinion. There is no censorship at all, no one is banned unless they do something, repeatedly, to take down the server. If the prevailing opinion seems to be negative toward the program, then it's likely because that really is the prevailing opinion.

NO, THIS IS NO MORE A CULT FORUM THAN WWASP IS A CULT -  BTW, DON'T CATHOLICS HAVE TO GO TO CONFESSION, DOES THAT MAKE THEM A CULT?  CALLING SPECIALTY BOARDING SCHOOLS A CULT "IS" REALLY STRETCHING IT.  "

Ever hear the term "Just trust the program"? Or how about "If you don't DO something quickly, your kid might die in a drunk driving wreck this very weekend!!!!"

Speaking of the Catholics, does anyone remember the Inquisition? The Salem witch hunt?

Here's the definition of the word cult.

Any philisophical group or religion is a cult. That's what the word means. And any one has the potential to become an abusive, high demand group.

Finally, when I was on 5th phase at Straight and taking the pre-training course for staff, I didn't think the program was an abusive cult either. I had never thought about it in that light because thinking such thoughts was verbotten. Even if I had thought it, I had no one to talk to. Saying such a thing would get you started over.

That's the reason for cutting these kids off from the real world. That's the reson for all the restrictions on communication among themselves and w/ their families. If they didn't strictly control their members' communication, if members were allowed to question the program freely, they'd notice all the contradictions and wouldn't believe it.

Government operates best when it allows all messengers to offer their views, allowing the American people to decide which take root and which wither away.
--Harold Furchtgott-Roth, member of the Federal Communications Commission

[Anonymous]

Interesting phrase, "trust the program."  Actually, I have personally never heard this, but I have heard "trust the process" in relation to the program.  

I am going to disagree with the response, Ginger, regarding the "cult" thinking on this board. I should look at the negatives and believe every word that is written on this board.  If I don't, then I don't get it, or I'm not living in the real world, or I should just go drink the kool-aid.  I know this is not a cult, neither is the Catholic church, neither are specialty boarding schools. I'm not telling anyone here to agree or disagree with my views.  It's just telling another side of the story.

I read a lot of "fear" about attending the seminars that wwasp offers, but not from those that have been to them.  I was NEVER, EVER told what to think or feel, PERIOD!  I was never told to confess in front of 1 or 100 people and had them hold it against me.  I was however, asked to reveal secrets to a therapist once, not to have it held against me, but to begin working on it to get over it.  I didn't "get over it" until I attended the seminars.  I was never degraded, abused verbally, whatever you think happens.  Hey, I have an idea!  Since they are public, why not put your mouth to rest on something you have not experienced for yourself and GO!  No one is going to run after you if you choose to leave and ask you to stay.  Why all the assumptions without personal knowledge?  Comparisions with "other" experiences are not the same thing. What I attended sounds nothing like what Deborah attended.  As an alternative, why not buy the book The Four Agreements Companion Book - it mirrors what these seminars are about in many ways.  Good investment in yourself.