Apologia - Serious debate only, please!

[GregFL]

"the program can't fail"

What we have here is a prime example of a adult with self inflicted hero worship onto the WWasp model. You cannot reason with them, you cannot change them, you cannot get them to see the elephant in the room.

Unfortunately, this has always been the problem. Thougthful people have always put a spotlight on these abusive programs and the majority of people have always summarily ignored the evidence. The changes in the kids are just too powerfull over the short haul. We have an instant society and this is the equivalent of Microwave popcorn for troubled kids.... Nuke em till their done.

Nothing new.....Parents have always known these programs use brainwashing, islolation and humiliation tactics. That it is okay for this to occur to their children is an indictment of our society at large...

Take a look at how long this has been going on.

 "my first reaction was awe. I actually was spellbound. After that first open meeting, my wife and I did not speak during the trip home. Our thoughts were so taken up in what we had witnessed. Some people call it brainwashing. If that's what it is, then give it to me".

A seed parent being interviewed by Staff writer Judy MckNight, St Pete Times, Circa 3/73.

After all, who wouldn't prefer Middle Earth, unless they've been corrupted by a Ring of Power?



http://www.lewrockwell.com/elkins/elkins73.html' target='_new'>December 24, 2002

[Antigen]

[to Deb. Greg beat me to the submit button, apparently. Damn you, Greg! Damn you to hell!!! :wink: ]
Oh, not only that, but this is nothing new. Seed/Straight/SAFE/PFC, etc. required a whole lot more involvment from parents than WWASP type programs. First, it was a rare thing for a kid to go through intake without the parents being in the building. All parties had to sign something and, if it took 8 hours to convince them, that was not a problem for Staff.

Once the kid was in the Program, newcomer parents were required to attend two open meetings a week, which could last till midnight or 1AM easily and a Parent Weekend seminar during the months their kid was on first phase. Before a kid was allowed to go home with their own parents at night, the house had to be checked out by staff. No drugs, no alcohol, locked windows and doors, extra phones, televisions, radios and such removed.

The newly accomplished oldcomer had to have an older oldcomer go live with them. This was officially a temporary measure to ensure that the kid and parents were "working the program" at home. But the pressing need to house newcomers and out of town oldcomers nearly always made it a permanent arrangement.

That's when the real fun began for the parents. Say they had their own kid(s), 2 - 4 newcomers and a couple of out of town oldcomers living in their home. All of them, of course, had to be fed and Mom got to do all the laundry. Additionally, the had to somehow figure out how to get the newcomers and 2nd phasers to the building, clients with jobs to work, others to school and themselves to work, all on time, without speeding or stopping for gas or cigaretts w/ clients in the car. That alone was a monumental effort for the family. But it doesn't stop there, oh no!

The first thing a parent found out when their kid finally "earned" 2nd phase (never knowing that the parents had to comply and show progress in working their own program before the kid could go home) was that the parents were just the niggers. They were not in charge of anything but enforcing program policies. They could not interfere or comment if an oldcomer was being cruel to their newcomer. It was the program, they couldn't possibly understand how it works and so they had to sit down and shut up.

Believe it or not, some parents actually got off on this regimen. That's where Executive Staffers come from. They're not really cloned at a secret undergound base somewhere out in the desert, as was once believed.

Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.
--Winston Churchill

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
   10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous

[ This Message was edited by: Antigen on 2003-12-19 05:55 ]

[GregFL]

Oh, I know they got off on it Ginger. Funny how the WWasp progrm "Cannot fail" because of family involvemnt. Hell, in 1973, all SIblings of a seedling had to go thru intake and often were coerced into going in the program even when it was obvious they didn't need it. Back then it was called a "druggie attitude". And the parents..omg. My stepmom walked around for 10 years talking like a seedling. My parents went on a hell bent recruiting mission, and we had seed signs in our car, on our house. Seed lingo replaced normal conversation and they were involved to a level of absurdity. Oh yeah, this was 1973/74.  This is new?


ALWAYS, you can count on a modern day parent or other interested adult explaining why their version of this sham is the new and improved model that works miracles.  They dress up the old transvestite in a new dress and call her a beauty queen, but we all know the truth and know what lies underneath that new dress ::deal:: .

America when will you be angelic
When will you take off your clothes....
America after all it is you and I who are perfect
Not the next world.
--Allen Ginsberg

[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-12-19 06:17 ]

[GregFL]

"sort of suspect that if a kid were sent into the program by trigger-happy parents, that kid would fly through the program, and,...... benefit from it. And, be aware enough to realize that they had benefited."


My favorite quote from our program apologist. Other than the obvious implication, that kids who struggle thru the program do so because of their own fault, their own problems, this is a sick statement.

This statement implies that Even if the kid doesn't really have problems, he/she in fact, still benefits from being incarcerated in thought reform/behavior modification. The technics are so beneficial that everyone wins, even those kids without sufficient problems to warrant this extreme treatment.  The program is that holy, that good...that infallible.

Shit, this lady sound very much like Art Barker who thought all of america's kids should be seedlings, for the betterment of society at large.


Madam, your crediblity with me on this topic has gone from low to zero.



[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-12-19 06:32 ]

[Deborah]

I'm thinking it might be useful to create a timeline on the evolution of the infamous industry. Not in a thread on a message board, but more like a webpage.

Even before Seed, etc there were programs- reform homes and military "schools", others? Oh yes, adolescent psych hospitals. Had a young friend who was admitted to one in Dallas for smoking pot. Reform homes were almost always religious and without regulations. Were the old military facilities subject to regs?

I invision each entry looking something like this:

Date of opening/closing
Owner/Founder's name
Brief summary of techniques/methods (50 words)
Personal experience (50-100 words)
Links to relevant reports on the facility.

At the very least it would be interesting to see how the industry has progressed. What developments occured in which years, etc.

My preference would be that the contributor would send the above info which would then be added to the timeline.

[GregFL]

Yes, there were predecessor programs deb. But this Model, what we loosely refer to here as "the program" containing  the brainwashing, restriction of movement, isolation and humiliation model derived from the synanon with  AA techniques thrown in for good measure, dates back to about 1967-68 CEDU,and then Art Barker took it in 1970 and turned it into a drug rehab for adolescents. Synanon had been initially mostly for adults. Programs far and wide share hauntingly similar techniques derived from the synanon model, AA, and of course, Korean thought reform, including such gems as  isolation, sleep deprivation, caloric restriction and public humiliation.


I think your idea is a sound one. Perhaps we could learn of a adolescent program using "the program" model that predates CEDU? that would be very interesting indeed.

Come in the evening, or come in the morning; Come when you 're looked for, or come without warning.
-- Thomas O. Davis (1814-1845): The Welcome.

[Antigen]

Deb, here's a flow chart showing some of the Seed variety of programs.

http://www.thestraights.com/the-straigh ... hts-fc.htm

But this is a perfect project for relational database work. To start out with, I guess add one field to your list.

Date of opening/closing
Owner/Founder's name
Brief summary of techniques/methods (50 words)
Personal experience (50-100 words)
Links to relevant reports on the facility.
X-Reference: Corporate and individual names that appear in association with other programs.

To do that automagically (which is the whole aim of practical databasing; you want to dump in the data and have it magically sort itself out, showing you relationships and trends you might miss relying on just your own observation and short/long term memory) we'd require a few more fields.

I guess we'd need these, to start with:
owner/founder
director
umbrella/foundation
lawfirm (they all have one)
political affiliations

Any other suggestions?

I have found that the best way to give advice to your children is to find out what they want and then advise them to do it

--Harry S. Truman

[Anonymous]

Ginger - it was late when I responded and failed to say that I had asked a graduate why she felt the program worked and that was the response I received from her.  I don't necessarily agree with the "the program can't fail" statement, because it isn't clear on what she meant by that statement. I have asked her what she meant by that statement, and will add that when I receive it.

I chose to add it here as it was received just to see what kind of responses it would receive.  

Her response included a few links, but I chose not to add those.

I had my own ideas of why it works, parent involvement is definitely one of the biggies, though.  The other is the family, along with their child works from the inside out. They begin to rebuild their relationships, first through letters, then through phone calls, then through visits and family seminars.  

I know the seminars are not secret in the sense that what is or can be gained is posted right on the seminar website.  The purpose for not sharing the content makes sense to me.  I wouldn't want to know in advance what to expect.  Everyone "gets" their own experiences and to know in advance would create expectations of getting the same things as the other person. Problem is that Dr. Phil put it all out to the world to see a couple of years ago.  I worked for a major corporation then and our employer "gifted" this same sort of seminar to the employees, just geared toward employee relations.  I got a LOT of value from it.  I then chose to attend the wwasp seminars for my personal life and got even more from it.  No one told me what I "should" get out of them. My personal experience was not brainwashing, whatever that means.

One link that she sent that gives the info on each seminar. There are links at the bottom to each one. Where's the "secret?"
 
http://www.resourcerealizations.com/ind ... public.cfm

Clearly many of you are not open to this kind of inner work. That's okay!  Did anyone say it's for everyone?  Many aren't ready for it, and again, that's okay.

Can someone explain what "brainwashing" means in the program for the kids?  I hear a lot of complaints about the process of the program for the kids, but not what makes it good/bad.

[Deborah]

Clearly many of you are not open to this kind of inner work. That's okay! Did anyone say it's for everyone? Many aren't ready for it, and again, that's okay.*****

I consider that comment to be arrogant. There are many ways in which people "grow" and change.

I attended an 8-day workshop, that I didn't know at the time was based in this same philosophy-est, lifespring. It wasn't promoted as such. It was very confrontational and it became clear to me that the people "running" the workshop were projecting their own "stuff" onto everyone else.
The leader was a PhD in psychology.

I agreed to show up on time, be honest, not bail, and take the direction of the leader; although I did question the latter "committment" in front of the group, and said I'd agree if the direction was reasonable. There was plenty to eat, no vow of secrecy, and we weren't sleep deprived.

About half-way through, the leader asked everyone to sit in front of the group and tell their life story, while being video taped. When I was finished the leader attacked me for being a "victim". Because I was privy to the leaders own story, it was clear to me that he was actually venting his anger toward his mother for not protecting him from an abusive step-father. Ironically, he was angry at me because I wouldn't go "kidnap" my son from a TBS and risk jail time.

That's when I broke the committment and left the workshop. There had been several red flags prior to this "exercise" and I'd had several heated debates with the leader and at one point accused him of being sexist; but this was the point in which I knew that the leader had not done his own "inner" work and was unable to think objectively about me or anyone else.

Many of the participants had taken previous workshops. Five people from the workshop came to my room. All wanted me to return but all had a different reason, motive. One guy that I liked alot felt abandoned, cried and asked me to please return and hear his story. One guy said he just wanted to understand me, he'd found some of the things I said interesting. He also said that he'd never seen the leader be so hard on a participant-several others confirmed this. I suppose he had never been challenged and didn't take kindly to it. It disrupted the control he needed in the group. One woman, who was a lover of the leader tried her skills at manipulating me back. I ended up "counseling" her on an issues she hadn't been honest about herself.

Bottomline, I would not have been honest to myself if I had stayed and continued to be silent and/or allowed myself to be the whipping boy for the leader. I did not pay to be ridiculed or silenced.

I got the same sense of the "leaders" in the RR seminars from accounts I've read.

****Can someone explain what "brainwashing" means in the program for the kids? I hear a lot of complaints about the process of the program for the kids, but not what makes it good/bad.****

Brainwash - a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up certain beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas.

That appears to be an accurate definition of the methods used in BM facilties and many "inner growth" workshops.

The difference is that I could walk out. The teens can't and their parents often don't due to group pressure. The people I was in "workshop" with "needed" a fearless leader.

My son wasn't a liar before going to TBS. He learned quickly how to lie and how to assess what the adults around him WANTED to hear, in order to avoid abuse. The first few months were hell for him. He couldn't figure it out. In group the "counselor" asked what was up. He expressed concerned about what his older brother was going through at the time. She called him a liar and put him on restriction (no social time, work detail, limit calories) until he was willing to "tell the truth". So...he did the logical thing... he made up a lie... which she accepted as the truth. My son is pretty much on the ball. I can only imagine how this must confuse and ****up the weaker minded kids. That doesn't resemble any form of useful therapy I am aware of or constitute "inner" work. That is training in "how to think the way I think". And lable yourself as I do.  In addition, he was told on a regular basis that his thinking was not accurate and that he was basically no good. Uh hum... in a nutshell, brainwashing.

I do not for a minute believe his situation was unique, but rather the method used by most if not all BM facilities.

[Antigen]

What is mind control? Here's a handy reference.

Lifton's Eight Criteria of Mind Control


Milieu (Environmental) Control - Control over the members' flow of information and social interaction. In many groups, there is a "no gossip" rule that keeps people from expressing their doubts or misgivings about what is going on.  Members are taught to report those that break the rule, a practice that increases dependence on the leadership. They are sometimes told not to believe anything they see or hear reported by the media.

Mystical Manipulation - The group attributes supernatural influences where none are present--attributing a accident to a member that left to be "God's punishment"--or manipulates situations so they appear spontaneous--members believing that their new feelings and behavior has arisen spontaneously because of joining their new group. The effect is enhanced by the milieu control because dissenting or alternative ideas are not present.

Demand for Purity - Unreasonable rules and unreachable standards are imposed upon the members. The critical, shaming essence of the cult environment is gradually internalized by the members, which builds lots of guilt and shame, further magnifying their dependence on the group. Individuals easily feel inadequate, but are more willing to submit to this because the milieu control limits critical questioning, and the mystical manipulation validates the group's rules.

Confession - Past and present behavior, undesirable feelings are to be confessed. However, the information gained about you can be used against you to make you feel more guilty, powerless, fearful and ultimately in need of the group and the leader's goodness. This environment is set up by the unreasonable demand for purity.

Sacred Science - The teachings of the group are viewed as the ultimate, unquestionable truth. The leader of the group is likewise above criticism as the spokesperson for God on earth, whose Truth should be applied to all humankind and anyone who disagrees or has alternative ideas is not only irreverent, but also unscientific. Mystical manipulation often lends credence to the group's doctrine.

Loading the Language - The group's language serves the purpose of constructing their thinking and shutting down critical thinking abilities. "Groupspeak" forces members to censor, edit and slow down spontaneous bursts of criticism or opposite ideas. Soon members find it easier to talk among themselves than with outsiders, who are given derogatory names such as "of Satan," "unconverted," etc.    

Doctrine Over Person - As members rewrite their own personal history or ignore it, they are simultaneously taught to interpret reality through the group concepts and ignore their own experiences and feelings as they occur. Members learn to fit themselves into the group's way of life and individuals are valued only as they conform to group doctrine.

Dispensing of Existence - The group's totalist environment emphasizes that the members are part of an elite or special group. Outsiders are considered unworthy or unenlightened. This thinking leads to the thinking that their whole existence centers on being in the group. If you leave, you join nothingness. This is an extension of doctrine over person. Existence comes to depend on creed (I believe, therefore, I am), submission (I obey, therefore, I am) and total merger with the group's ideology. This is the final step in creating members' dependence on the group.

Adapted from Chapter 22 of Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism by Robert J. Lifton.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is a Destructive Cult?

Definition:

A destructive cult is a highly manipulative group which exploits its members and can cause emotional, financial and physical harm. It dictates, in an absolute manner, the behavior, thoughts and emotions of its followers. Coercion and manipulation techniques are used to transform the new recruit into a loyal, obedient and subservient member.

Destructive cults claim a special status, for themselves or their leader that usually sets them in opposition to mainline society and/or the family.

Destructive cults conceal their real nature and goals from prospective members by adopting deceptive behavior in order to attract new recruits.

Cultic Thinking:

Cultic thinking is a way of conceptualizing reality and society by dividing them in two monolithic blocks (black/white, saved/damned, good/evil). Within this framework there is no room for gray areas. Individuals and movements with this kind of thinking automatically classify themselves in the category of the pure and the saved. Subsequently, they look for scapegoats in order to explain problems experienced by them or by society. Cultic thinking is laced with fear and can lead to intolerance and extremism, and is particularly prevalent in times of personal, social or economic crisis.



 
Finally, question for anon. You've said several times now that the "tools" only work if the client willingly takes them up and works them, or something to that effect. How do you reconcile that with involuntary commitment.

Marijuana clearly has medicinal value.
 Thousands of seriously ill Americans have
 been able to determine that for themselves,
 albeit illegally. Like my own family, these
 individuals did not wish to break the law but
 they had no choice.
 

--Lyn Nofziger, former deputy chairman of the Republican National Committee

[Anonymous]

Deborah -  I'm sorry if I sounded arrogant.  It wasn't meant to be arrogant.  Written words can be filered a lot of ways.  I know it's okay to not choose seminars as a way to gain new insights.

I would like to clarify that what you experienced wasn't my take on the seminars I attended.  In each one, the seminar leader asked a lot of questions, inquirying questions without demanding that I compromise my own viewpoints.  They helped to uncover a lot of things I had never considered before.  Not once was I told to think in a certain way, or say things that I didn't really feel.  That would have defeated the whole purpose of developing a healthier relationship with myself, don't you think?  I want to respond more, but I'm watching my grandson and he's calling....til later.

[Deborah]

I have to disagree with you. You may not realize it yet, but "Many aren't ready for it" certainly does imply that those who take the seminars/
workshops are more 'advanced', 'enlightened', fill in the blank. And those who do not are somehow inferior, less evolved, kinda like chattering pigs, one might say.

Like Daddy Berenstein Bear, let these people show you 'what NOT to do'. Now that would be some valuable 'inner' work.

[Deborah]

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... forum=9&10

4. When we decided not to complete the TASKS Seminars, several efforts were made to divide us from our child. The program proved to be entirely inflexible when we didn't adopt the Seminars whole-heartedly and they had no provision for helping our family if all family members didn't participate in all the Seminars. Several staff developed hostility towards us and showed it openly to our daughter. Duane Smotherman, the facilitator of our seminar mocked us in a seminar two weeks later at Tranquility in front of our daughter and all the other teens. These behaviors were quite shocking. We have been able to manage some family unity despite all of this, but the strain put on our family by the program's behavior was great. We have talked to other parents who had an even more difficult situation than we did. In many cases they were divorced. When one parent attended the seminar and the other did not it was reported to me by these parents that staff and peers in the program tried to prejudice their child against the parent who did not attend the seminar. As far as we have seen, there is no program which helps families to reunite and resolve family programs when only part of the family members attend all the seminars.

[GregFL]

On 2003-12-19 22:32:00, Deborah wrote:

"http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3107&forum=9&10



4.  Several staff developed hostility towards us and showed it openly to our daughter. Duane Smotherman, the facilitator of our seminar mocked us in a seminar two weeks later at Tranquility in front of our daughter and all the other teens. These behaviors were quite shocking. We have been able to manage some family unity despite all of this, but the strain put on our family by the program's behavior was great. We have talked to other parents who had an even more difficult situation than we did. In many cases they were divorced.

"

And here we have the real legacy of the cultic CEDU model adapted by Wwasp .  Broken families, hurt children.

But not to worry, Deb...Anon knows someone who benefited (at least shows the appearance-very common post program)and that discounts all negativity.

Never mind that it took me 26 years to bury the hatchet with my father and Ginger's family is still strained. Never mind that your family unit was harmed...all this must be our fault..perhaps we didn't work our programs correctly?

The reality of the abusive techniques and cultic practices of these programs don't  matter to people like anon because someone she knows is apparantly doing better.

 ::bangin::


[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-12-20 05:41 ]

[Antigen]

Yup, same game, slightly different lingo.

Back in the day, they had a ritual called "checkout" at The Seed. The rule was that everyone in the household and anyone who wanted to attend Open Meeting or otherwise have contact with Seedlings had to be checked out. Checkout was a lengthy and highly personal interview by staff and, I do believe, sometimes olcomers who might be familiar with the family. If a Seedling wanted to be friends with a non-Seedling when they were nearly ready to graduate, this friend would have to go through the checkout process as well. My older sister had a friend like that.

My dad did not pass muster on his checkout. I remember him cussing about personal questions from some smart assed 16yo druggie. I can only imagine the scene. But the result of this was that he had to move out of the house and couldn't visit while current Seedlings were there. So he used to come to the house on his lunch hour just about every day with a chocolate milk shake or a jug of root beer from Royal Castle for me and my sister.

I never fully understood how my dad responded to this whole bizarre turn of events. He was not one to take an insult gracefully. And he made it very clear that he thought Art Barker was a con man. Never the less, he was always soliciting donations of cash, food or whatever from his friends and coworkers. When my turn came around at Straight, it meant a 4 hour trip each way from Pompano to Sarasota for open meeting every other week, I think it was. Plus, of course, all the money.

I imagine he took a lot of shit in the parents meetings after open meeting because he never would really yell at me or say anything hateful at mic talk. He kept on coming and kept on paying and kept on urging me to work my program and all that. But he also took me aside and showed me where he'd hidden a long screwdriver in my room, just in case of fire or a violent newcomer. I'm sure they held his feet to the fire if they ever found out about that cause I used it to escape one of those times.

Never the less, he shocked me one more time, though, when he lied to a cop in Georgia to try and have me arrested. I wish I'd taken the opportunity to talk to him about it back then. I wanted to ask him how he could believe that I so desperately needed to be locked up if he'd had to lie to try to get me arrested. But I was just too scared. It was just so completely out of character for him to pull something like that. Hell, even when he took me for my intake initially, he told me where I was going. He could have lied to me then, but honesty and integrity were just that much a part of who he was.

So, instead of talking to him, asked the cop to hang around for a few minutes till my sister in law got home from work and I stayed in the cop car.

"Now, I'm a walking dead man," ... "And what bothers me is that I'm dead because I tried to help the kids. And it's all the fault of all those people over there at the DEA." [Dead Man Talking]


--Ben Guillory