Apologia - Serious debate only, please!

[Antigen]

I copied this anon post from another thread. I'm asking, please, no personal attacks or goofing around in this thread.

This is just the type of subject I would have loved to have discussed w/ program people out in the more commonly accepted reality 20 years ago. This is a beautiful thing! No one's getting thrown to the floor, shut down, threatened w/ lock down or any other serious consequences for failure to agree.

If anyone wants to flame, please aim your flame thrower at the other copy of this post.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=30#28946


I'll unlock this new topic in a little while.

Anonymous
Thanks Ginger -

Your forum, as well as others, say that all programs for teens are torture. I guess it all depends on your definition of torture. Juvenile prison is torture, not just mentally, but physically. Suicide, cutting (self torture) bulemia, anorexia...symptoms of ADD (anger, self medication, stomped on self esteem by teachers, etc.) are torture as well.

Finding a program where the underlying reasons for teens self abusing can also be torture - for the parents that have tried so much and still nothing is bringing their child to be what could be considered normal. They torture themselves for not being able to handle it themselves. Torture for the kids that can no longer manipulate their parents into whatever they are manipulating them into.

Rules to following can be torture, sitting in an isolation room can be torture. Parents getting letters from their kid saying they are being abused can be torture. Separation can be torture.

Choices can be painful.

Watching your child destroy their life can be torture, even more torture, in the worst case, would be a lifetime of torture if the child dies and you didn't do anything.

So wwasp torture children...I guess all of these types of schools also torture children. These programs are "private pay" and that makes it a bad thing? What about the state run facilities that hire unqualified staff? Does it make it better because we are all paying for them? Problem with those types of programs/whatever you call them, is that are so short term, they rarely have positive results. Children in the private pay schools not only learn to make better choices, they actually have the time to apply what they've learned.

Do they come home perfect little robots? I wouldn't think so. They are better prepared for life's challenges, though...assuming they complete the entire program. Do they fall? I'm sure they do, we all do in life. We fall, we get up, we fall, we get up again...or not.

Your analogy of Jim Jones is digging pretty low, Ginger. Go to any bookstore and you'll find racks and racks of self-help books. The same things that these schools are actually having the students apply (Bradshaw, Covey, Thom Hartmann...just to name a couple).. not to just read.

Is it torture...could be, just depends on your perception. Kinda like newspaper articles and he said/she said allegations.

Locate the blind spot in the culture--the place where the culture isn't looking, because it dare not--because if it were to look there, its previous values would dissolve.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1561769118/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Terence McKenna

[Antigen]

Sorry I'm late. Had a customer support call.

As your attorney, it is my duty to inform you that it is not important that you understand what I'm doing or why you're paying me so much money.  What's important is that you continue to do so.
--Hunter S. Thompson's Samoan Attorney

[Anonymous]

If "torture" were necessary for recovery from teen behavior problems, it would be an interesting ethical debate:  do the ends justify the means?

What WWASP and STRAIGHT parents and others don't seem to realize, however, is that WITH TROUBLED KIDS (AND ANY OTHER HUMANS), KINDNESS WORKS BETTER THAN ATTACK AND PUNISHMENT.

There is never any therapeutic need for degrading language, humiliation, putdowns, physical "consequences" and petty rules like "no looking at members of the opposite sex" and "no looking out the window."

There is never any therapeutic need for refusal of reading material or contact with the outside world including parents (unless they are extremely abusive) for longer than a few days.  There is never any therapeutic need for isolation or restraint--these may be *RARELY* needed to protect someone from harming himself or others, but these tactics are never therapeutic.

There is never any therapeutic need to insult or attack anyone.

People say that only toughness works for "out of control" kids but the only evidence they have to support that is a few stories of out-of-control kids who say "it's the only thing that would have gotten through" and their parents and the salespeople who push these programs.  Promoters never hear from those whose kids dropped out-- or they blame them, not the program.  They do sometimes hear from program failures-- ie, my kid committed suicide the day I told him he was going back-- but these are simply reframed as "he would have done it years earlier if we hadn't sent him."  

Any other failures are explained away as "he didn't do what he was supposed to" "he left early" "he didn't graduate."  Never is it considered possible that the program itself could have failed.

This is a sign that something is pseudoscience and cultish-- not based in reality.  Any real treatment will have failures since "one size" actually fits none.

And no one can ever know "this was the only thing that could have worked for me"-- I might believe that I was cured of cancer because I had a car accident and the next day my cancer was gone, but few people would be insane enough to crash their cars to try to cure their cancers as a result of my telling them this and charging them $1000 for my insight.  I have no real evidence that "nothing else could have worked" if I say so after my accident-- even if I find three other people who say chemo failed and car crashes helped.

The *only* way to know whether something works is to put one group of people through it and leave another alone and/or put another through something different and see who does better.  Period.

If WWASP wants to say its programs work-- let them prove it by this method.  Bring in an external group of academic researchers and let them do a proper study with control groups and publish it in a peer-reviewed journal.

If it really works, why aren't they doing this?  They aren't doing so because their tactics would never pass a human subjects internal review board and because they know that what they are doing works great to bring in $$ and bodies but doesn't do anything to help kids.  If anything, it harms-- there is research evidence that "attack therapy" like that used in the seminars and groups causes lasting psychological damage in approximately 10% of normals subjected to it.  God knows what % are harmed when it's troubled kids who are exposed.

Sure kids who are "acting out" need boundaries and limits and rules-- but they don't need abuse, humiliation and petty dictatorship.  They may even need to be "confronted" about their behavior-- but this offers insight only when it's done in the manner of "I'm worried you are harming yourself because every time you do drugs you wind up in the hospital" not "you're a fucking junkie loser who will never amount to anything."

Since most people who use drugs excessively do it to escape, why do we think giving them more things to want to escape from will help?  Why do we think  increased pain will make them want fewer painkillers?

Where on earth did we get the idea that love only heals when it is delivered with a barbed wire whip?  Why do we believe that treating basic human rights as "priveliges" will make teens more likely to respect us rather than resent us?  Why on earth do we think that my fucked up kid can heal your fucked up kid because he's been subjected to a treatment scheme for three months longer than mine?  Why do we believe that making depressed kids more miserable will cure them?

[Antigen]

Dear Anon,
  I'll concede every point up to and including "Choices can be painful", except for one.
   

Anonymous
Your forum, as well as others, say that all programs for teens are torture.

Some people in this forum say that, yes. Depends on how you define the term "program" I guess. I signed my kid up for a gymnastics program, that includes some rules and some risk. I think it will enhance her self esteem, give her a chance to make good friends and, btw, to have fun. All that is well worth the risks involved, and the expense. I do hold to a hard line, though, on involuntary involvement in a program, especially where older kids are concerned. The older the kid, the greater the liklihood that whatever disagreement they may have with authority is a sign that they've been paying attention, not a symptom of some illness or character flaw. That's why our society has always gradually given more legal weight to our children's wishes and choices as they get older. We don't let 16 year olds vote or drink or enlist in the armed forces, but we let them drive. They can handle that. We generally leave it up to them, too, whether to play football or join the chess club or not, which friends to choose, what to read and think, etc. After a certain age, we start to pull back from directing their personal growth and let them take charge of that aspect of their lives.

So wwasp torture children...I guess all of these types of schools also torture children. These programs are "private pay" and that makes it a bad thing? What about the state run facilities that hire unqualified staff? Does it make it better because we are all paying for them? Problem with those types of programs/whatever you call them, is that are so short term, they rarely have positive results. Children in the private pay schools not only learn to make better choices, they actually have the time to apply what they've learned.

It's not so easy to tell the difference anymore, but theoretically anyway, a kid has to actually do something pretty bad to some non-consenting victim in order to land up in juvenile detention. In that case, we're not protecting the kid from himself so much as we're protecting others from him. Judge Jim Gray nailed it when he said "We should reserve our jail space for people we're afraid of, not people we're mad at." Our criminal justice system is looking more and more like the Program, though, these days. Here's a post about that:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#28735

One of the primary flaws in the Program model, in my view, is that they are involuntary AND they have no concern for the civil rights of their clients. The only diagnostic criteria that matters is the level of distress in the parent. And they go to pretty obscene lenghts in their advertising, lobbying and proselytizing to generate as much of that kind of distress in parents and other caregivers as they possibly can.

You talk about kids who are cutting and starving themselves, but you seem to not understand a couple of important things. MOST of the kids who land up in these places don't have that kind of problem. Many of those who do have those kinds of serious problems have the problems in the first place because their parents have been feeding them a steady diet of this same, though less potent, medicine for as long as they can remember. For a lot of these kids, putting them in this type of program is a lot like the way George Washington's doctors inadvertantly killed him or, for that matter, how just a little more money is supposed to fix our schools or just a few more bombs will bring world peace; just a little more of the same medicine is sure to do the trick.

Do they come home perfect little robots? I wouldn't think so. They are better prepared for life's challenges, though...assuming they complete the entire program. Do they fall? I'm sure they do, we all do in life. We fall, we get up, we fall, we get up again...or not.

How can you even say that? Do you know how many of the people who frequent these forums are Program graduates? Do you really want your family reunion in the year 2025 look like a Program reunion? This is a very old scam here, friend. Not only is the problem to be solved wholely or partially imaginary, but the patented cure is also completely unproven. We know, to a dead certainty, that the methods used in them can be very harmful. Not just unpleasant at the time, but harmful in the long term. And the only evidence of efficacy are testimonials, often outdated and no longer supported by the authors, and what the programs have to say for themselves. Any of them have a real impressibe alumni list? Lots of star athaletes, brilliant doctors and scientitst? Happy, healthy families who, 20 years later, all get together at the holidays to share the season in good cheer? Where the hell are they? I've been chumming the waters for any and all program vets for a number of years now and I haven't run into a whole lot of people who attribute their success and happiness in life to the Program.

Your analogy of Jim Jones is digging pretty low, Ginger. Go to any bookstore and you'll find racks and racks of self-help books. The same things that these schools are actually having the students apply (Bradshaw, Covey, Thom Hartmann...just to name a couple).. not to just read.

No, that's actually not digging at all. Jim Jones started out his career as a cult guru by taking in junkies and employing a little behavior mod to straighten them out. His tactics were controversial but, as claimed by his followers, very effective and right. They and the authorities in this contintent agreed to disagree and that's why they moved to Giana. Same with Synanon, only that one fell apart after Chuck Deiderich was convicted of conspiracy to murder in an attempt to shield his cult from litigation. He tried to off the lawyer representing the plaintif by having a rattle snake with the rattle cut off left in his mailbox. Damned near got him, too, but for a neighbor who found him twitching on the ground in his driveway. To what lengths will these programs go to protect their higher purpose?

Is it torture...could be, just depends on your perception. Kinda like newspaper articles and he said/she said allegations.

Lots of things are torture. I'm going to have some oral surgery pretty soon. It promises to be torture. But I have given fully informed consent to it. I know just what they're going to do, why they're doing it, the risks and costs involved, the likely benefits. I think it's worth it so I'm going to do it. Please wish me luck and don't expect me to make a whole lot of sense during the first week of the new year. I'll be legally, therapeutically and (hopefully) blithely stoned off my rocker for a few days. Maybe I'll put a call in to Rush's open line just for shits and giggles.

But these programs are neither volunary nor demonstrably beneficial.

I tried for years to live according to everyone else's morality.
I tried to live like everyone else, to be like everyone else.
I said the right things even when I felt and thought quite differently.
And the result is a catastrophe.

---Albert Camus

[Anonymous]

Other than in the case of a suicidal patient being protected from abusive correspondence, or the outside world being protected from terroristic threats of a violent patient, and that restriction only being for a couple of weeks at most, nobody should *ever* be deprived of the right to send and recieve uncensored correspondence.

Okay, the other case is soldiers whose mail is sometimes censored for national security reasons.

The only reason to cut off someone's uncensored correspondence is to prevent them screaming for help, and to induce Stockholm Syndrome.

ALL programs that cut off correspondence are abusive, and should be forced by the ongoing supervision of Child Protective Services to shape up, or should be shut down.

Some things are okay to do.  Some things are not.  Shutting off or censoring correspondence is one of the things that is NOT okay to do.

[Anonymous]

Ginger - defining "program" is  emotional growth or residential treatment, wilderness, rehab, whatever relates to that, not a gymnastics program!

I agree that some parents will send their kid to a "program" if he/she is playing video games to extreme...that's not the majority however. Some will do it because the parents are trying to make a point on who is in control.  But...for most of these kids, going voluntarily is NOT an option.  Heavy drug use, heavy denial of any dangerous behavior in these kids and a total breakdown in the family is why most parents make this decision out of love, not hate.  They don't think their kids are "bad" kids.  They themselves know they have problems that need to be looked at.  

Many of these kids have been labled ADD/ADHD, and outpatient treatment doesn't work.  They are given meds that rarely work for very long.  They begin to self-medicate...beyond the blunt, a lot of them go way beyond.  ADDers exhibit high risk behaviors with no fear of the consequences.  The public schools aren't equipped to handle their "differences" for the mostpart and neither are many private schools.  Their anger is triggered by the smallest things, mostly from frustration because they don't fit in and are with others that are on the same path.   I don't feel ADD is a bad thing, but society as a whole does.  A hundred or more years ago, ADDers were the ones that made things happen, got things done.  Today, it's the other way around and to calm the ADDer, they are prescribed meds.  What they learn and apply in a wwasp program is a gift to all ADDer's.  

They hurt, they hurt deep inside and most of them don't even know why they are hurting.  The cutting, the eating disorders, the sex, running away, giving up in school, the destruction of property...and the alcohol and drugs are all ways to cover up their hurt.  Even the cutters think they feel good.  

So you say you don't think this should be done involuntarily?  How long should a parent beg their child to go willingly?  If it is court ordered IT IS STILL INVOLUNTARY. If a therapist recommends they go to residential treatment, IT IS STILL INVOLUNTARY.  It's just the judge or the therapist doing the same thing the parents are doing. In most cases, their dangerous choices have nothing to do with their rebellion against authority.  Hell,  rebellion is "normal" for any teenager.  It's when it goes beyond that we must intervene. It's our job as parents.

Out here in the real world there are kids doing what they could go to juvenile detention for...they just aren't getting caught by the police.  BUT, many are caught and the police don't do anything unless it's a felony.  

There are waitlists six months long at most state funded rehabs or treatment centers.  Some say they must be a certain age, be high school drop outs, be drug free, etc., to get help.  So what's a parent to do?  Live with the chaos?  What's that going to prove or do in the whole family, especially if there are other kids in the home? Should they just wait it out and hope for the best while the next few years tear their family apart.  They choose to pay for the help when there are limited resources in their community in the hopes of bringing their family back together.  

Most parents are not getting this kind of help because they have more money than brains...most don't have this kind of private pay tuition at their disposal. These parents are not approached by parents that have a kid in the program.  These parents beg for help from therapists, law enforcement, the schools and hit dead ends.  They are searching the net for answers.  When they call a place like wwasp, they are already in need of intervention.  No one has to talk them into it.  They are ready for it in most ways, though emotionally and financially it takes all the love they can muster to go through with it and continue for the long haul.

I absolutely DO NOT agree that most parents are to solely to blame for what has happened.  On one hand you say that teens have a mind of their own and should be allowed to test their wings, and on the other you blame the parents for the choices their kids make and for their choice in intervening when their kid is destroying their life,  through a private pay program.  This is not an Ozzie and Harriet world anymore. Each family has their own view of what "destroying their life" means.  Fear plays a major part in this decision.  Fear of the unknown has many families making this emotional choice.  

A teen that successfully graduates a program of this nature will not say the program did it. They will tell you they did the work, the deep inner work, to do it. The programs provide the resources.   They are successful because they apply valuable lessons learned every day if they choose to.  This program is not some miracle cure.  You've gotta want it, or it won't work.

In response to other posts - just my personal view: Someone else posted about petty rules.   Don't look out the window?  Don't they do that anymore in the public schools?  Don't look at the opposite sex?  Hey, maybe some guy will break a jelly bracelet on your daughter's wrist and go have sex with her on high school grounds - Petty rules are everywhere and most of us don't agree with them and may break them if we think we can get by with it.  I think it's more about learning to be aware of rules and how we handle them.  By the time they get to the upper levels of their program, following rules becomes easier.  When they return home and go to school or work, the rules are the same in many ways. In the program, if they don' t follow rules, they loose points and privileges - or have time out away from other students - or if they are angrily lashing out at others or property, they may be restrained.  In public school, they will be suspended or have detention,  be restrained or detained by campus police if they are destroying property.  At work...they're put on probation or fired.    We may not agree with the consequences, but if we are made clear on what is acceptable and we don't follow the rules, then we also know the consequences and can't blame anyone but ourselves for the outcome.  

I don't buy "my parents did this to me" - If smoking weed or drinking is against the parents values, the parents will do something about it, or not.  If shoplifting, stealing money, screaming obscenities, punching holes in the walls, dropping out of school, running away, internet dating/sex, cutting, etc., etc., is against the parents values, they will do something about it. What a parent does is their choice, not mine, not yours.  Sending a child who is depressed to a program like this could be the best way for them to find those parts of themselves that they feel good about hidden inside the outside behaviors, but only if they are open to it.

What is degrading language?  Seeing through someone's bad choices and letting them know you don't accept it?  They are learning to define their personal boundaries of what they want in their life.  It doesn't have to be degrading to get the point across.  Is it painful to finally look at it?  Could be!  Do some kids verbally attack?  I would say yes, they are learning the "how to" of feedback.  They usually eventually get that "from the heart" feedback is better taken than attacks.  BTW, when I was in high school, my peers were much worse when I didn't want to join in their choices.  

Maybe some programs censor outgoing mail.   To my knowledge, wwasp programs don't do that.  How else can you explain all the garbage they write to their parents in the beginning?  I believe they do censor incoming mail, not for written content, but for items that they aren't allowed to receive.  Agree or disagree...it is what it is.

I see a lot of parents that want the program to look a certain way, to fix their kid and do it in a pre-determined length of time and when it doesn't happen, they lash out at the program.  It's not about the program, it's about their expectations.  It's a lack of trust in those that do this everyday and know it's not a "fix." It really IS up to the kid to take it and fly...or not.  

No one predicts the future.  It's an aware parent that can see what is happening right now and what needs to be done,  Will it go away if they ignore it?  Like I said, no one can predict the future that I personally know!

[Antigen]

Anon, you've brought up about a dozen different issues. I could give you a few pages on each. But I don't think anyone's going to read and follow all that, you or I included. So I want to address just a couple at a time.

On 2003-12-17 13:24:00, Anonymous wrote:

This is not an Ozzie and Harriet world anymore.

It never was. The Adventures of Ozzie & Harriet was a sitcome. It was fiction. It's a good thing the real world was never like that, too, cause sex didn't exist, even within marriage, there were no bathrooms as far as anyone could tell and no one really knew what the Ozzie did for a living. Was he mafia or something?

In the real world, things don't always go according to plan. Sometimes our plans are bad and our expectations unreasonable. Sometimes you just have bad luck.

You mention, as a criteria for placement, "heavy denial of any dangerous behavior." I read that as the parent is convinced there's something horribly wrong with the kid, but the kid disagrees.

Well how do you know you're right and the kid is wrong? In the criminal justice system, even juvenile, at least to some extent, we have tomes of policy and practice to determine who's right and who's wrong. And it's all based on tried and true customs going all the way back to the Magna Carta. If I do say so, the standards of American justice, when held nearly sacred, are as close to perfect as any human civilization has ever achieved.

By comparison, what's your litmus test for determining that the kid is the one with the problem, not just an overworried parent.

Many of these kids have been labled ADD/ADHD, and outpatient treatment doesn't work. They are given meds that rarely work for very long. They begin to self-medicate...beyond the blunt, a lot of them go way beyond.

You should look into the long term effects of those meds. Not only do they sometimes not "work" for very long, but they can also cause the same long-term damage that recreational or self medicating users get. In this case, it's litterally, it's the fault of the parents and professionals. It still amazes me that people will feed their little kids powerful amphetamines, but then get all bent out of shape when the same kid discovers that pot is really not such a bad thing.

ADDers exhibit high risk behaviors with no fear of the consequences.

Or maybe you're overly anxious and they're not? It's possible, you know.

The public schools aren't equipped to handle their "differences" for the mostpart and neither are many private schools.

We're not really making kids any differently than we ever have. It's the schools and the demands they place on the kids that have changed.

Their anger is triggered by the smallest things, mostly from frustration because they don't fit in and are with others that are on the same path.

Or maybe it's triggered by little reminders of something much more significant. Maybe it has something to do with the adults in their lives constantly trying to convince them that they're damaged goods. It's like Muhchousen by proxy.

I don't feel ADD is a bad thing, but society as a whole does. A hundred or more years ago, ADDers were the ones that made things happen, got things done. Today, it's the other way around and to calm the ADDer, they are prescribed meds. What they learn and apply in a wwasp program is a gift to all ADDer's.

OMG! This is just heartbreaking. You know your kid is not damaged, but possibly gifted. And you go along with the plan to break him just to make him fit into a defective mold? No wonder you have problems in your relationship with him!

They hurt, they hurt deep inside and most of them don't even know why they are hurting. The cutting, the eating disorders, the sex, running away, giving up in school, the destruction of property...and the alcohol and drugs are all ways to cover up their hurt. Even the cutters think they feel good.

Maybe they hurt because they think you don't love them, because you're bent on changing who they are, because you never take their side and defend them from abuse.

Out here in the real world there are kids doing what they could go to juvenile detention for...they just aren't getting caught by the police. BUT, many are caught and the police don't do anything unless it's a felony.

Then you go on to mention begging law enforcement to do something. It honestly sounds to me asif you're bent on believing there's something wrong with your kid, the cops and teachers don't agree with you so you've sought out someone who, for a heafty fee, will sell you the martyrdome you so crave.

I hope your kid gets out of this with some semblance of self respect and sanity. And I honestly hope that, one day, you realize your grave error and sincerely apologize to him. You just can't imagine how much that can mean to a kid. Even if it comes later on, when they're grown.

I do not believe in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance.

--Thomas Carlyle

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
   10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous

[Anonymous]

Antigen wrote: OMG! This is just heartbreaking. You know your kid is not damaged, but possibly gifted. And you go along with the plan to break him just to make him fit into a defective mold? No wonder you have problems in your relationship with him!"

Ginger - You're reading something into this that is not there. ADDer's are gifted, they're smart, creative and wonderful people.   Change them?  Hell, no.  It's about finding out they're NOT damaged and can get past the meds that were prescribed by someone at home.  Getting past the teachers telling them they're stupid for not paying attention or doing their homework.  Part of it is about learning to "think" before acting.  Changing their core being is not a part of it.  It's changing the way they look at themselves.    I'm an ADDer! Breaking a kid to fit some defective mold is your definition. Unless "breaking" means taking a deeper look at what "can be." What does BREAKING mean to you?  These kids are not broken.  

Each and every child, whether ADD or not, deserves the best love and support a parent can give them.  Sometimes that's not enough.

I read that you think that there is never a reason to seek help when the parent truly feels there is a need.  It's like saying the parent doesn't know their kid better than a judge or therapist?  Can you give me more of your thoughts on this?  

So much can be assumed in the written word, or in conversation.  I really am not here to prove you wrong and me right.  I'm not looking for answers to "why" parents do this. I made a statement about Torture and you made a separate thread for this asking those that responded not personally attack.  You're judgment of what I am writing, your responses especially toward the end feels like an attack and an assumption that I have a child in a program.  FYI, I don't.  

I was in a program in Caliente, Nevada when I was 14 - over 35 years ago.  :wink:

[Anonymous]

P.S. - here is a link to where I was - back in 1969:   http://caliente.state.nv.us/ ...but that's a whole other story!

[Janet]

Ginger, what a profound statement, "OMG! This is heartbreaking.  You know your kid is not damaged, but possibly gifted.  And you go along with the plan to break him just to make him fit into a defective mold?"  

This parent still does not answer the question on why there must be stupid rules.  Level 1 cannot look people in the eye, cannot look out a window, cannot pass through a doorway without permission first, etc.  Stupid rules are not the same as reasonable laws!  He does not answer why the children must be locked up miles away from home and cannot see his parents.  He does not answer why they cannot have tasty food and food of reasonable quality.  (One mother seemed thrilled to find out that if someone complained about the food, he would lose the right to have any condiments.) He does not answer why berating the student is ever good.  He does not answer why punishments in OP can last days or weeks and what good that does.  

No child should be incarcerated without a court proceeding. No child should be put into an institution that is not monitored by the juvenile justice system. There needs to be a law with teeth to stop parents from sending children away from home and away from local child protective services.  School districts could report children missing from their rolls to child protective services who can then see that federal and state laws are being obeyed by parents.  The states strapped by budget deficits can fine parents who break the law and in the process fund the service. (After all, if the parents can afford the school, they can afford a hefty fine.}  The present interstate law, unfortunately, is weak. Also, by monitored, I mean many unexpected visits.  

Unfortunately Ginger, these parents are SOLD on WWASP and we are talking to my mother's proverbial brick wall.

[Antigen]

On 2003-12-17 16:02:00, Anonymous wrote:


Ginger - You're reading something into this that is not there.

(earlier)
I don't feel ADD is a bad thing, but society as a whole does. A hundred or more years ago, ADDers were the ones that made things happen, got things done. Today, it's the other way around and to calm the ADDer, they are prescribed meds.

It's not there? People labeled ADD today are the same people who used to do things like invent airplanes, write brilliant, dark and moody satire to with the title "Best loved man in the world". The very same traits that America used to celebrate are now banned in places where we force our children to spend a large chunk of their lives.

What they learn and apply in a wwasp program is a gift to all ADDer's.

Where is the evidence of that, anon? What, exactly, makes you think that kids generally come out of WWASP better off for the experience? Please answer me that, if nothing else.

ADDer's are gifted, they're smart, creative and wonderful people.   Change them?  Hell, no.  It's about finding out they're NOT damaged and can get past the meds that were prescribed by someone at home.  

Well, thanks for the compliment. Why not start by not going along with the professionals who insist on trying cure their giftedness?

Getting past the teachers telling them they're stupid for not paying attention or doing their homework.  

Put the teacher in his or her place. They're wrong. Better yet? Take the kid out of school. Look for other options. There are many. Homeschooling can be anything from sailing around the world, joining parents on business trips to community learning coops to apprenticeships to pursuing a modeling career to ... whatever interests the kid. I would never stand for any teacher calling students stupid.

Each and every child, whether ADD or not, deserves the best love and support a parent can give them.  Sometimes that's not enough.

Boy, tell me about it! Sometimes a kid just has to get the hell away from their crazy parents and figure things out for themselves. Mine sure did. She left home at 16 to go be the local drug dealer's bitch. He did to her just about exactly what the Programs do to clients.

It was amazing, horrifying and somewhat ironic when I started reading up and talking to people about battered women and what they're thinking. Here I am, having walked away from a couple of relationships potentially as bad as hers, but never having given it much more thought than "Well, that was not good."

So here I was spending a good deal of time trying to figure out how and to do what I can to end the practice of forced behavior modification, and there went my daughter, voluntarily, against our strenuous objections, to take a dose of the same medicine.

Earlier, you mentioned the rules and explained how benign they are. That has always a problem in trying to explain the Program to people who weren't there. Sure, all alone, out of context, complaining about any of these rules sounds petty. But, taken together, it's just adds up to an incredible amount of psychological pressure.

Maybe you'll understand and see the similarities if I explain how this boy, to whom we affectionately refered as Psycho Boy, went about keeping my daughter on lock-down.

He eavesdropped on her phone calls, read her mail and punished her with accusations and demands for confession if she tried to talk to us or any friend she had before she started dating him. That's how he kept her isolated.

He, his brother and a couple of other guys beat hell out of her best friend's boyfriend with bricks and boards right in front of her. The kid's crime had been to spot this boyfriend pimp slapping my daughter around in a public place and making him stop it. That's how he terrorized her.

When she had a job she liked and she started getting some independence, he'd go to her work and make a scene, threaten to kick the boss' ass or whatever till she got fired. He'd get her jobs where his friends worked and have them report back to him if she flirted with a customer.

He constantly accused her of various petty and great infidelities, dishonesty and sneakiness, most of it imaginary. He interrogated her about these things late into the night till she was tired and confused and just apologized. That's how he kept her addle-brained, confused and off balance.

By the end of it, he was litterally slapping her in the head, calling her stupid for anything or nothing. The kid was so beat down by then, it took her about 10 tries to manage getting herself to the bus station to come back home. She simply couldn't envision doing anything on her own and she was terrified every time the bus stopped because she thought the crazy SOB might show up to get her.

Never the less, once she got here, gathered herself up, got some much needed rest and reprieve, we've discovered that our daughter has grown up a LOT in the time she was away. She's back on track wrt her immidiate career objectives. She's catching up with some of her good old friends, working two jobs, saving for a car and about 3/4 of the way through the paperwork phase of starting her remedial courses to make up for the highschool that she missed.

All in all, she's learned a lot from the school of hard nocks and is no longer the wildly irresponsible 16yo who used to sneak out the bathroom window to spend all her time with anyone within a 2 mile radius who'd threatened our lives.

However, I would not recommend to another mother that they set their daughter up with a violent dope dealer in order to help them with wreckless behavior. Though I must admit, in monetary terms, this was definitely cheaper than a WWASP program.

All we did was keep the door open. We never did tolerate having people in our home who we didn't trust or any of the rest. We fought a lot before she left. We kept in as close contact as we could manage without getting arrested for violating the restraining order Psycho Boy had placed on us. When she needed dental care and he wouldn't spring for it, we paid it, no strings. When she needed a ride to go get her GED, I and her sisters dragged our butts out of bed early and drove her down there, really just happy to have a whole hour to spend with her.  

Yes, it was hard, nerve-wracking, terrifying at times, insulting, hurtful and a whole big mess to deal with. But not so much that I didn't know what I was looking at the day Officer Friendly offered to "help" her, if only I would bring criminal charges against her.

And it was not too much to expect. She's our kid. We love her. We had no choice but to stick by her, no matter what. We have always been on her side. She hasn't always known it. But we never forgot the important stuff. If I had it to do over again, I'd yell less, listen more, but otherwise I wouldn't change a thing.

I read that you think that there is never a reason to seek help when the parent truly feels there is a need.  It's like saying the parent doesn't know their kid better than a judge or therapist?  Can you give me more of your thoughts on this?  

No, not that a parent should never seek help for their kid. But there ought to be some check against the kid being subjected to unneccesary, unproven and dangerous methods. And, even when the methods are fairly safe and effective, there ought to be some sort of diagnostic or criminal process by which we can reliably determine whether or not the kid even has a problem to begin with.

So much can be assumed in the written word, or in conversation.  I really am not here to prove you wrong and me right.  I'm not looking for answers to "why" parents do this. I made a statement about Torture and you made a separate thread for this asking those that responded not personally attack.  You're judgment of what I am writing, your responses especially toward the end feels like an attack and an assumption that I have a child in a program.  FYI, I don't.  

You're right, that was uncalled for and I'm sorry. I just get so angry because I know there are so many kids in that position.

What, exactly, is your interest in this subject? You know mine. Are you an edcon? Program owner or staff? How do you come to know what you know about how these programs work? Please answer this, too.

You mention jail or juvenile detention as torture. But, before you land in either of those places, you get a charge, to which you can plead guilty or not. You get some kind of representation. There are rules and laws in place, sometimes even enforced, to ensure that confinement is the least invasive, least restrictive means of addressing the crime. Oh yeah, there has to be some crime. Not just an overworried parent bent on believing their kid is mentally ill.

That's the biggest difference between criminal justice and these kinds of private placement. That and that the most obnoxious indoctrination tapes they're forced to listen to are Jerry Springer on the men's wing and Oprah on the women's.

I was in a program in Caliente, Nevada when I was 14 - over 35 years ago.  :wink:  



 "

Speak gently! 't is a little thing Dropp'd in the heart's deep well; The good, the joy, that it may bring Eternity shall tell.
-- G. W. Langford: Speak gently.

[GregFL]

So, as I see it, anon is telling us first "ADD" kids were the movers and shakers. Then society came in and gave them drugs and treated them wrong in school. Now, in order to correct that, we must "gift" them the wonderfull present of thought reform....

First, ADD and the rest of the alphabet soup in my estimation is pure garbage.  Some of the smartest people I know still shake their leg at age 50 when talking and were hyper kids.  We all are different.

Anon, you really can't here yourself talking...can you?<

[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-12-18 09:32 ]

[Anonymous]

Antigen wrote: "What, exactly, is your interest in this subject? You know mine. Are you an edcon? Program owner or staff? How do you come to know what you know about how these programs work? Please answer this, too."

Ginger - I'm a former student of what used to be called the Nevada Girls Training Center.  No, I'm not an ed-con.  I am related to a former student of Cross Creek for Boys.  I've seen the results first hand.

It sounds like your daughter is home and doing well.  I honestly don't know if I would have had the guts to just wait it out and hope for the best.  

For GregFL - not all ADDers need residential treatment - geez!  Yes, it is a gift if those that are in rt are willing to unwrap it.  Most  think they aren't good enough, smart enough, awesome enough to create amazing things in their lives because of their label.  Our society calls us ADD. A damaging label that breaks us down as defective in some way.  Through the wwasp program, ADDers find the gift in who they are and refuse the labels...all WITHOUT medication. I agree that the label is pure garbage.  Just another attempt by the pharmaceutical industry to get rich at the expense of our kids.

To both Ginger and GregFL - The evidence is what I learned by my relatives stay there. He is much better off because of what he learned about himself.  Instead of the angry, defeated, drug dependent kid that went there, he's very much into doing his own thing now in a much healthier way- he's got a great sense of humor, is working toward his electrical engineering degree, has a healthy relationship with a girl and no longer puts limits on himself if he really wants something to happen.  He gained new insights and skills, doesnt dwell on the past and seems to have a great life. And yes, only time will tell, but he's been in college a while and seems to be enjoying his life in a non-destructive way. He's taught me a lot.      

I don't have an answer to the "stupid rules" question, other than my view earlier.  I should ask someone that's been there that learned what they're all about. Maybe it's as simple as cause and effect.

[GregFL]

This is where the argument gets circular. You wish to point to one example of a kid (relative) that went thru thought reform and is now doing better therefore legitimizing the whole teen help industry and justifying the abuses endured by 10s of thousands of children.

This anecedoctal information neglects to take into account the kids that killed themselves in treatment, died in treatment, became mentally ill or unstable in treatment, or suffered PTSD or other mental symptoms upon exiting, or were just plain pissed off that their parents abandoned them to a bunch of lunatics and other kids hell bent on "helping" them.

As much as it is a wonderfull thing that your relative now appears to be living a healtier life after exiting "teen help", it doesn't necessarily even mean it was due to his incarceration there. Where would he be without the teen help industry? (oh yeah...dead, insane or in jail)

Your argument is anecedotal at best. For every kid that endured his/her torture and feels better off for it, we can parade countless examples of kids harmed by their experience.

The fact is this...the program, as designed by Art barker and CEDU and passed down to these various programs, is evil at its core. It involves brainwashing "tricks"  and humiliation tactics that harm many more people than they help.And the most insidious issue of all is they hide these horrible tactics behind "love and caring" and "saving lives" and parents buy into this sham over and over and sit by and watch their children be subjected to techniques designed to break prisoners of war.  All this is done under the guise of "helping them" and the parents are complicit in their children's misery, root on their children's captors, pay for it, even choose the program over their kids when confict arises. This really sickens me, to be quite frank with you.


And here is the truth. I am soon to be 45 years old. Most of the kids, the really bad "druggie" kids that avoided treatment when I was a kid are doing good today. Some died. Some still do drugs.  The other kids, the thousands of Pinellas county youngsters that went thru the Seed, Most our doing well. Some died. Some continue to do drugs.  

I don't think there is a statistical difference between the two groups that is significant. There certainly isn't any study done that indicates otherwise, just a fantasy 90% success rate invented by a cult leader and still bantered around today by various programs. The major difference is that us kids/survivors of the teen help industry get to carry around some additional baggage to deal with into adulthood and once an adult, grew up believing we were different and had reduced value over normal people, and we get to carry around a big shameful secret that our employers, our friends, our children, and even our spouses don't/can't know about. Additional hurdles to jump, so to speak. Some kids never recover from the shame and deal with it far into adulthood in very unhealthy ways. Look around this very website for examples of some of these proud "graduates"..read their stories, listen to the anger and shame and view their unsocial skills they learned in treatment and still use 10, 20 30 years later.  Proud graduates that have been "gifted"?  I think not.

And where did this highly emotionally charged "dead, Insane or in jail" mantra that leads parents to take such radical measures come from? Is it founded in fact or was it the calling card of a meglamaniac cult leader?  

You decide....


"Picture in your mind a moment, $250 saves one young person from a life of drugs with one of three alternatives-death, imprisonment, or psychiatric hospitalization. What an investment-$250 for one life!

Art Barker 1973, the year of my incarceration to "save my life".


And what of these outlandish "success rate" claims. Where does this come from? Is there any study, any legimate science here, or are we just repeating the same bullshit passed down over the years from those responsible for "gifting" this treatment method to our  children?

Again, you decide...

 "our 90% succes rate is documented by the NIMH (national institute of mental health).

Art Barker in July 1973 in response to questioning of the claimed 90% sucess rate. The NIMH responded to the St Pete times by saying they had not even assessed the success rate of the Seed program. An earlier study by Dade County indicated a 41% Drop out rate. In other words, it was a LIE, an invention of a man that believed himself to be the messiah of children in this country, sent here to save the youth from certain extinction from drug use. This "success rate" LIE was plagarized from Art by all the copycat programs and id still used to this day thruout the teen help industry without any supporting documentation.


Just so you know, the seed is the grandaddy of the Straight lineage of treatment centers in this country.




[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-12-18 09:31 ]

[Antigen]

On 2003-12-17 21:54:00, Anonymous wrote:

It sounds like your daughter is home and doing well. I honestly don't know if I would have had the guts to just wait it out and hope for the best.

Yes she is. Thanks, but I really can't accept the compliment. I found the courage to just wait it out in that I knew the peril of all of the other alternatives. So I had an unfair advantage over some others. I can't say I wouldn't have taken the offer to have her arrested, charged and forced through Broward County's 'rehab' program if I hadn't known or that I wouldn't have shipped her off to some camp or boarding school, if I hadn't known better. But I do.

You point to one individual, kin to you, as proof of efficacy. Do you discount out of hand everyone else who's risking legal retalliation from WWASP to tell the other side of the story?

And can you explain what it is about the Program that works? How does it work? And can you point to any evidence derived from the tens or hundreds of thousands of former clients to support your assertion that the program is even somewhat likely to be more helpful than harmful?

Our Constitution is in actual operation; everything appears to promise that it will last; but in this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.
Anonymity Anonymous



[ This Message was edited by: Antigen on 2003-12-18 10:29 ]