Author Topic: Does thought reform create arrogance?  (Read 5537 times)

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Offline thomasC

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Does thought reform create arrogance?
« on: December 12, 2011, 02:31:28 PM »
Do you think thought reform programs create arrogance with the peer group/level structure, or do arrogant people simply take better to the program environment? I ask because I have noticed all survivors of the TTI I've ever seen on the internet who defend/justify their programs, regardless of what their STATED attitudes toward them are , inevitably reveal themselves to be confrontational, condescending programmees, who will spout program lingo/thought terminating cliches whenever their beloved program is the least bit threatened by a comment on the internet. In some of the program groups I've belonged to if someone suggested they suffered some long term negative consequences of the program like PTSD, family trouble, etc. they would get immediately pounced on by these people telling them "LOOKS LIKE YOU LEARNED ACCOUNTABILITY!" "WHY DON'T YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU DID TO GET SENT THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!" "YOU'RE PLAYING VICTIM, GET OVER IT!" "WHY DON'T YOU TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOURSELF AND MOVE ON!"

The other weird thing I noticed is that a lot of them claim they didn't like the program, that they thought the thought reform aspects were stupid and didn't have an affect on them, and that they invariably claim to have MOVED ON. I don't remember ever being specifically told to MOVE ON after the program and not think about it, although we were told to do that with rape, childhood abuse, etc. What it seems to do is actually convinced the programmee that nobody cares about their suffering, that the "mature" way to deal with bad memories is to not think about them/pretend they didn't affect you.  That ends up protecting the program, because if it takes 5-10 years (or longer, or never) for a person to shake those messages off, they get away with all the abuse by convincing kids to "move on" from it.

Essentially this is a chicken or egg question.  Were people who felt they were superior to others before the program cling to it because it gave them an outlet to tear other people down, or did  the program create these sad souls who then became attached to this way of relating to people and years later are still trying to justify their change to themselves?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 02:41:24 PM by thomasC »

Offline thomasC

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Re: Does thought reform create arrogance?
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2011, 02:48:29 PM »
With the "demand for purity" and "in/out group" thinking necessary for a good brain scrub, I can understand why CURRENT cult members are going to behave that way (look at videos of Scilons on Youtube, for example), but a "re-education" type program is different.  We were only there for a limited amount of time, so anyone still acting like this is doing so freely without any ongoing outside pressure.
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Offline Samara

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Re: Does thought reform create arrogance?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2011, 04:41:51 PM »
Well, I went into this program with horrific self esteem and an inability to assert myself on any level. I left it feeling like I had insight and awareness that most civilians didn't have and that it was incumbent on me to call them on their bullshit. No one was good enough, deep enough, or transcendent enough for me to really connect to anyone authentically. I kept looking for people to relate to on some astral plane that didn't exist because it was totally contrived in some pseudo-enlightenment cult. All the people I secretly condescended just "didn't get it."  I had no idea that I didn't it - they knew perfectly well how to go about the business of living - which is just the exigencies of daily life. I think I really felt that every day life should be as intense and "transcendental" as a Profeet. Pretty arrogant, huh?  The funny thing is I split, but still brought in.  It was a rude awakening to discover ding!ding!ding! that I missed enjoying experiences and people because they were every-day.  I didn't get that every day language, occurrences and people were valuable. What a waste.

However, I was not one of those look goods who went bananas on people in a rap and got off on power trips. I sought no power or notice. I wanted to blend into the wood panels as much as possible. I found raps to be a grotesque violation of conduct and boundaries.  Some people, however, came into the program ready to rip. They enjoyed humiliating and oppressing others, and found validation of their sociopathy from power staff gurus. The more you demeaned others, the more powerful you were thought to be... others had to be forced to confront people for bullshit reasons. You quickly learned to recognize the ones who relished it.  Also, the students who fared the best were the ones who were ultra manipulative and gifted in cons. They saw it for exactly what it was. I was too dumb to fully process it.   I kept thinking the methods were perverse, but they must have good intentions right?   There must be some value.  Well, no.
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Offline Samara

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Re: Does thought reform create arrogance?
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2011, 06:33:34 PM »
Thank you, O Holy One. I couldn't have done it without your humble and beneficent assistance.
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: Does thought reform create arrogance?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2011, 10:34:04 PM »
Samara, thanks for your personal insight. You nailed it for me.
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Offline Ursus

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Re: Does thought reform create arrogance?
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2011, 11:55:04 PM »
Quote from: "thomasC"
Do you think thought reform programs create arrogance with the peer group/level structure, or do arrogant people simply take better to the program environment? I ask because I have noticed all survivors of the TTI I've ever seen on the internet who defend/justify their programs, regardless of what their STATED attitudes toward them are , inevitably reveal themselves to be confrontational, condescending programmees, who will spout program lingo/thought terminating cliches whenever their beloved program is the least bit threatened by a comment on the internet. In some of the program groups I've belonged to if someone suggested they suffered some long term negative consequences of the program like PTSD, family trouble, etc. they would get immediately pounced on by these people telling them "LOOKS LIKE YOU LEARNED ACCOUNTABILITY!" "WHY DON'T YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU DID TO GET SENT THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!" "YOU'RE PLAYING VICTIM, GET OVER IT!" "WHY DON'T YOU TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOURSELF AND MOVE ON!"
That's a very interesting question. One that I have pondered myself over the years, through an evolving set of lenses, hence yielding an evolving set of conclusions and insights, with the later ones not necessarily superseding or canceling out the earlier ones.

That is, it's complex. I don't think there is a simple or easy answer to this.

In general, I don't think these programs really do much about changing a person's essential character. That's kinda more of a long term metamorphosis, although there can be, and I'm sure that there are, exceptions. Kids at Hyde who tried to live their lives by common sense ethics or some moral code still did and do just that; kids who were master manipulators and pathological liars continued and continue to be ... just that. Program or no program.

That said, one thing that group peer pressure, as it is practiced in programs, can do and does quite well, when it's directed to confront and inflict ridicule and moral repudiation on individuals deemed in need of changing their attitude or conforming their behavior to be more in line with the goals of the program, is to teach the process and practice of the invalidation and disparagement of thoughts, beliefs, and experiences not in keeping with that of the group. This "education" seems to adsorb to kids' psyches regardless of what "the group" is then or later defined or understood to be.

This cuts both ways, of course.

Quote from: "thomasC"
The other weird thing I noticed is that a lot of them claim they didn't like the program, that they thought the thought reform aspects were stupid and didn't have an affect on them, and that they invariably claim to have MOVED ON. I don't remember ever being specifically told to MOVE ON after the program and not think about it, although we were told to do that with rape, childhood abuse, etc. What it seems to do is actually convinced the programmee that nobody cares about their suffering, that the "mature" way to deal with bad memories is to not think about them/pretend they didn't affect you.  That ends up protecting the program, because if it takes 5-10 years (or longer, or never) for a person to shake those messages off, they get away with all the abuse by convincing kids to "move on" from it.
Geeezz... Ya sure you didn't go to Hyde? (Just kidding...) There is a fairly large contingent of Hyde School "survivors" who, although they express disgust over Hyde's hypocrisies and make endless fun of the kool-aid guzzlers... also attack and ridicule anyone who doesn't share in their macho "if it doesn't kill me, it makes me stronger" mentality, as well as (and especially) anyone who thinks the place effected some serious long term, perhaps even permanent, damage on some kids.

"Move on," get over it already," "what could have possibly been so bad," etc. These are the kinds of comments that are made about kids who were raped, kids who were physically assaulted, kids who suffered bone fractures and weren't given medical attention, kids who were denied their meds as a means of harassment and intimidation, kids who were labeled to be scapegoats of community ridicule, etc. etc. These so-called "survivors" are still goose-stepping to the beat of 616 High Street (some of them in their 50s even), whether they know it or not. It's pretty sad.

It is also a pretty telling indictment of what entails a "success story" at Hyde School. Whatever happened to the concepts of empathy or tolerance of those different from us? What kind of world would Hyde create, if they could, where only the "unique potential" of those deemed compliant is recognized, yet others, no less deserving but who do not fall in line with the desired personality type, are branded as suffering from a "character disorder."

Quote from: "thomasC"
Essentially this is a chicken or egg question.  Were people who felt they were superior to others before the program cling to it because it gave them an outlet to tear other people down, or did  the program create these sad souls who then became attached to this way of relating to people and years later are still trying to justify their change to themselves?
My guess is that there are candidates for both of the above, as well as a range in between.
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Offline Xelebes

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Re: Does thought reform create arrogance?
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2011, 01:29:10 AM »
I think what we may be seeing is the dandelion/orchid spectrum that is currently in discussion in the psychology circles.  The resilient ones (the dandelions) end up with the macho mindset while the ones likely to develop serious psychological problems due to the abuse (the orchids.)  Some of the orchids will take on a macho mindset to mask the problems in a similar fashion one turns to substance abuse, and this can lead to very dangerous situations.
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Does thought reform create arrogance?
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2012, 02:48:54 PM »
I think the arrogant were drawn to the program.  Both the ones who started them and the ones who went on staff afterwards.
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Offline Reddit TroubledTeens

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Re: Does thought reform create arrogance?
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2012, 02:22:49 AM »
Quote from: "thomasC"
Do you think thought reform programs create arrogance with the peer group/level structure, or do arrogant people simply take better to the program environment? I ask because I have noticed all survivors of the TTI I've ever seen on the internet who defend/justify their programs, regardless of what their STATED attitudes toward them are , inevitably reveal themselves to be confrontational, condescending programmees, who will spout program lingo/thought terminating cliches whenever their beloved program is the least bit threatened by a comment on the internet.

That's really interesting you should mention this. Last week I was reading up on cults and one article said that it is common for ex-cultists to become irrationally angry if anyone criticizes the cult they were in. Just a few hours later, I received a hostile, profanity-loaded message from a man criticizing me of the advocacy work I am doing and accusing me of not having a heart. The kicker is, I had never even heard of his program, had not talked about it online EVER. I looked it up on fornits, I'm not going to name it but it was a spin-off of a spin-off of Synanon. It seemed to have equal amounts of people who said the program saved their lives and people who said they were horribly abused. It was really chilling, as soon as I read his letter I thought this is just like what I read earlier!
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N.O.S.O.B.

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Re: Does thought reform create arrogance?
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2012, 09:23:17 AM »
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Offline Froderik

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Re: Does thought reform create arrogance?
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2012, 09:54:59 AM »
Quote from: "N.O.S.O.B."
Alot of programs claim to have cornered the market on the best way to live...or the only way...

By working the program you become a member of a superior mind-set...

All other ways are inferior.....and there is usually a sense of being an elite priviledged missionary...if only the whole world could be converted...that sort of thing...

It's the same arrogance that you see in all extremists groups that have found the way...and members don't see it as arrogance...they have just found the TRUTH and want to help you....

Lifton talks about it in the eight criteria and I imagine other cult experts talk about it as well...

It's a black and white world that rejects subtle or critical thought....you are either with them or against them...that sort of thing...

“Doubt is uncomfortable, certainty is ridiculous.”
-Voltaire
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Offline Antigen

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Re: Does thought reform create arrogance?
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2012, 11:44:59 AM »
Quote from: "Reddit TroubledTeens"
That's really interesting you should mention this. Last week I was reading up on cults and one article said that it is common for ex-cultists to become irrationally angry if anyone criticizes the cult they were in. Just a few hours later, I received a hostile, profanity-loaded message from a man criticizing me of the advocacy work I am doing and accusing me of not having a heart. The kicker is, I had never even heard of his program, had not talked about it online EVER. I looked it up on fornits, I'm not going to name it but it was a spin-off of a spin-off of Synanon. It seemed to have equal amounts of people who said the program saved their lives and people who said they were horribly abused. It was really chilling, as soon as I read his letter I thought this is just like what I read earlier!

Oh, I see you've met my brother. Say hi to him for me & watch his head explode.

seriously, though, one of his handles here was arrogant bastard. We've hardly spoken in 30 years but I think I know him well enough from childhood to read him fairly well. The driving force behind his rage is fear; near panic level fear. He's got a well settled, warm & rosey set of memories, false by omission, that allow him to live with the experience. He remembers singing zippety do dah & cum by yah but has completely blocked memories of the kid being beaten on the floor next to group. I think he's terrified of those memories.
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Offline Reddit TroubledTeens

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Re: Does thought reform create arrogance?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2012, 09:05:22 AM »
Quote from: "Antigen"

Oh, I see you've met my brother. Say hi to him for me & watch his head explode.

seriously, though, one of his handles here was arrogant bastard. We've hardly spoken in 30 years but I think I know him well enough from childhood to read him fairly well. The driving force behind his rage is fear; near panic level fear. He's got a well settled, warm & rosey set of memories, false by omission, that allow him to live with the experience. He remembers singing zippety do dah & cum by yah but has completely blocked memories of the kid being beaten on the floor next to group. I think he's terrified of those memories.

It breaks my heart to hear that two siblings have hardly spoke in 30 years, just another example of how the industry splits up families. My heart goes out to you Antigen, and your brother too. Thanks for sharing what is surely frustrating for you. I'm glad you fight for others that are trapped in the system, I have a lot of respect for you knowing your background.
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Offline Antigen

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Re: Does thought reform create arrogance?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2012, 10:15:45 AM »
Thanks, Pixie.
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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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