Author Topic: What Are You Looking At?  (Read 5571 times)

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Offline ajax13

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #60 on: December 15, 2011, 01:46:29 AM »
Quote from: "Xelebes"
Quote from: "ajax13"
Since I am familiar with the Seed/Straight/Kids stream, I do not find it confusing.  You on the other hand, are not familiar with this subject, and yet you are making statements about the subject, rather than asking questions about it.

That's great.  The research I'm trying to do is figure out where the experiments began and when they forked off.  I'm also leading my research into the Canadian Residential and the American Indian schools and how did they factor in the development.  I can say with a couple interviews I've had with the natives, the conditions of the schools was (may have been) not as egregious in the 70s as they were being wound down as they were in the period 1930-1965.

Synanon's experiment - the demonstration of efficacy.  That's all it had to do.  Psychiatrists and psychologists walked in, offered tips and hints, leading Dederich to refine the "Game."  That was the experimentation as far as it went.  That's all it had to do.  The Seed didn't even have that - although I think DuPont did visit and did give his grace, or at least jumped in as a consultant with Straight.  I don't know how much advice was given but from what I can discern of the financial documents, it was a skinflint operation that may have padded the wallets of Baker somewhat, unlike what Sembler, Newton and Vause could do.  This fact might suggest that it was an experiment, but I find it an unsatisfactory hypothesis.

The fact that the Seed was a "skinflint operation" suggests that it was an experiment?  You think DuPont did visit, but you don't know, but you're still going to say that psychiatrists and psychologists who walked into Synanon and offered tips and hints to Chuck Dederich constituted "the experimentation as far as it went"?  The Seed received close to $2 million in the early seventies.  You've had a couple interviews with the natives, so you figure it's accurate for you to say that the conditions of the residential schools "may have been not as egregious in the 70s"?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline none-ya

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #61 on: December 15, 2011, 01:59:20 AM »
Having suvived the seed,and from what I've learned since finding fornits, I believe the abuses were turned up a notch with each new program. Straight was worse than the seed. Kids was worse than straight ect...
And the seed WAS a skinflint outfit. They didn't pay for anything. It was all donated,or paid for by the state. From the rent on the morgan yact building to the peanut butter sandwiches(which my parents made about 500). All pure profit. No overhead.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Xelebes

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2011, 10:17:28 AM »
Quote from: "none-ya"
Having suvived the seed,and from what I've learned since finding fornits, I believe the abuses were turned up a notch with each new program. Straight was worse than the seed. Kids was worse than straight ect...
Yes, but does it follow that because it got worse each iteration, that they were experiments.  Look at WWASP - it is probably the most horrid of them all.  Was that an experiment?
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Offline none-ya

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2011, 01:17:24 PM »
The seed was nothing but human warehousing. For as long and as cheaply as possible.
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #64 on: December 15, 2011, 03:12:32 PM »
Quote from: "Xelebes"
Quote from: "none-ya"
Having suvived the seed,and from what I've learned since finding fornits, I believe the abuses were turned up a notch with each new program. Straight was worse than the seed. Kids was worse than straight ect...
Yes, but does it follow that because it got worse each iteration, that they were experiments.  Look at WWASP - it is probably the most horrid of them all.  Was that an experiment?

No!! It does not follow that there were any experiments, studies or monitored Doctor of Psychology visits worth a hoot. I don't believe any of these programs were looking to be studied or wanted a team of professionals to do any experiments.
Men like Joe Ricci and Art Barker were selfish ego maniacs who believed they were onto a money making scheme. I really believe it is and was that simple. They honed their craft from the streets and jails experiences.
These men were con artist elite, who could get professionals to do what they wanted. Art and Joe needed what in order to establish their mini empires? A legit partner. Joe got Dr.Davidson as a co-owner, several states to supply kids and throw in Dr. Marvin Schwartz from Illinois to help with the rich kids and well you know the rest. Art Barker figured out how to manipulate the state ad federal agencies for funds.
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Offline Xelebes

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #65 on: December 15, 2011, 03:48:05 PM »
And go back further, the deepest connection to the military-industry complex is with Dederich.  It might even be worthwhile to ponder whether Dederich's Synanon was an operation divorced from experimentation, and that Dederich used his connections with the MIC in Douglas Aircraft to grease the wheels financially and legally.  There is enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that Dederich was privy to that information due to his work, which I presume included spy planes and combat aircraft, with Douglas Aircraft.  Is there enough evidence to say that Synanon was an experiment or was it merely a byproduct of the experiments?

I think that is another interesting avenue to look at?  What is more frightening?  That the CIA is conducting experiments or that the CIA is not paying attention to the byproducts of its experimentation until it is too late?
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Offline ajax13

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #66 on: December 15, 2011, 04:03:26 PM »
Quote from: "Xelebes"
And go back further, the deepest connection to the military-industry complex is with Dederich. It might even be worthwhile to ponder whether Dederich's Synanon was an operation divorced from experimentation, and that Dederich used his connections with the MIC in Douglas Aircraft to grease the wheels financially and legally. There is enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that Dederich was privy to that information due to his work, which I presume included spy planes and combat aircraft, with Douglas Aircraft. Is there enough evidence to say that Synanon was an experiment or was it merely a byproduct of the experiments?

I think that is another interesting avenue to look at? What is more frightening? That the CIA is conducting experiments or that the CIA is not paying attention to the byproducts of its experimentation until it is too late?

Privy to what information?  You presume Dederich's work included spyplanes and combat aircraft?  Of what experiments was Synanon a by-product?  Grease what wheels?  Not paying attention to the byproducts of its experimentation until it is too late?  Too late for what?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"AARC will go on serving youth and families as long as it will be needed, if it keeps open to God for inspiration" Dr. F. Dean Vause Executive Director

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Offline Anonymous

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #67 on: December 15, 2011, 04:32:06 PM »
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« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 10:27:22 PM by Anonymous »

Offline Xelebes

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #68 on: December 15, 2011, 10:36:28 PM »
Oh, I know.  But the heart attacks by ajax are too funny to watch.
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Offline Xelebes

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2011, 10:42:46 PM »
I guess I really shouldn't say that as that would be trolling.  But eh, there is too much supposition going on here.  We think we might have proof, but I think it's wise to keep the options open.  The MKUltra experiments have so much mystique around them as though they could actually create Manchurian candidates.  The reality was what they developed was much more crude and inexact - enough to do their actual jobs but not enough to actually get things done.  There is a lot of cruelty done by the CIA, but let's not pretend they are capable of creating a NWO.
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Offline Ursus

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2011, 10:50:48 PM »
Quote from: "Wayne Kernochan"
Synanon was a phenomenon. What followed was experiments.
You seem to forget the many many experiments that preceded Synanon. Moreover, there were quite a number of other such enterprises that would be behavioral engineers had their eyes on as well.

Had a rattlesnake not been put in someone's mailbox, chances are, in retrospect, that Synanon would not be half so notorious in people's consciousness.
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Offline none-ya

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2011, 10:53:47 PM »
You guys are debating semantics.Those old programs were not controlled experiment.But they were experimental in as much as they didn't know what the hell they were doing.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #72 on: December 15, 2011, 10:56:52 PM »
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« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 10:08:28 PM by Anonymous »

Offline Xelebes

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #73 on: December 15, 2011, 11:00:19 PM »
Quote from: "none-ya"
You guys are debating semantics.Those old programs were not controlled experiment.But they were experimental in as much as they didn't know what the hell they were doing.

*raises a beer*
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: What Are You Looking At?
« Reply #74 on: December 15, 2011, 11:04:36 PM »
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« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 10:07:25 PM by Anonymous »