Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Teen Challenge
I personally escaped this Cult
none-ya:
I'd like to know if your program was catholic based. That would explain a lot. They will use your sins against you for guilt. And then absolve you with confession for control.
Xelebes:
--- Quote from: "TC_Saved_Me" ---
--- Quote ---It is hard to buy God as an intervening God anyway, at the very least. You know that saying by Epicurus, something like, "If God is willing to prevent evil, but unable, then he is not omnipotent. If he is able to prevent evil, but not willing, than he is malevolent. If he is unable and unwilling then is he God?
--- End quote ---
I think it is wonderful that you are challenging Christian theology. Of course it is counterproductive, though, if you only challenge these beliefs for the sake of debate. It would be a glorious thing if you could study the Bible to prove Christian doctrine wrong. (I know many people who study human philosophy and historical occurances to attempt to debunk the existence of an omniscent, omnipotent God.)
This is an interesting conversation. Very deep. I love it!
--- End quote ---
I grew up with the Bible. When I gave up on it, my life was saved so to speak. My personal experience with the Bible and practicing the rituals did not save me from the hell. So to say that I should use the Bible to prove Christianity wrong, I have to say that I have no faith in it saying anything all too important. It has a few old chestnuts that have hung around with humanity since forever (The Golden Rule, the prohibition of murder, the prohibition of rape and so forth) and a lot of fanciful wishing on the part of the writers who turn to vagueness or hyperbole, in hopes that the reader or the listener (if relying on the preacher to read it for you) will feel spirited enough to go along with the traditions of the community or the powers that be. There is nothing to prove or disprove because the hyperbole will be explained as a parable and the vagueness will be explained by supplementary flapdoodle from previous cultural iterations (in the case of English Protestantism, Wodenist beliefs, Roman beliefs and some Celtic beliefs.)
TC_Saved_Me:
--- Quote from: "Wayne Kernochan" ---Romans 10:13 refers to the soul, not the body
I know lots of people who asked god to save them from addiction. He did for some, and not for others
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Mostly, I think it is speaking of salvation - you're right - but I don't think we should put God "in a box." He can save us from more than hellfire if we are willing to meet Him halfway. It says in the Bible that he counts our tears, and has the very hairs of our head numbered. He knows us and cares about us that much. In my personal experience, I lost everything I had from a crack addiction - my wife, my job, my car (Everything!)... I tried several times to quit, and was arrested a couple of times because of my problem. I remember laying in bed, balling my eyes out, begging God (I never even went to church before this). I was literally gasping for air I was crying so hard, and begging Him to help me get sober. Did I wake up the next day without any cravings? No. I was actually arrested the next day, and ended up in Teen Challenge. That's where He took my cravings from me.
Psalm 51: 17 says, "The sacrifices of God are a ??broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise." Once my heart and my spirit were completely broken, that is when God intervened. This is just my two cents, but I wonder if God hasn't yet saved some people who asked him for help because He knows that - deep down - those people are still not ready for fully surrender to Him.. Deep down, maybe they are not broken..??
TC_Saved_Me:
--- Quote from: "none-ya" ---I'd like to know if your program was catholic based. That would explain a lot. They will use your sins against you for guilt. And then absolve you with confession for control.
--- End quote ---
Teen Challenge is a non-profit, non-denominational ministry. They are affiliated with the Assemblies of God, but they welcome anyone from any background.
I've never seen this brought up, but I would imagine that they would discourage confession of sins to a priest. Though it does say in the Bible that we should confess our sins to one another, and find healing in that, AG doctrine presents that you can only receive forgiveness of your sins through faith in Christ, not through a priestly confession.
TC_Saved_Me:
--- Quote ---I grew up with the Bible. When I gave up on it, my life was saved so to speak. My personal experience with the Bible and practicing the rituals did not save me from the hell. So to say that I should use the Bible to prove Christianity wrong, I have to say that I have no faith in it saying anything all too important. It has a few old chestnuts that have hung around with humanity since forever (The Golden Rule, the prohibition of murder, the prohibition of rape and so forth) and a lot of fanciful wishing on the part of the writers who turn to vagueness or hyperbole, in hopes that the reader or the listener (if relying on the preacher to read it for you) will feel spirited enough to go along with the traditions of the community or the powers that be. There is nothing to prove or disprove because the hyperbole will be explained as a parable and the vagueness will be explained by supplementary flapdoodle from previous cultural iterations (in the case of English Protestantism, Wodenist beliefs, Roman beliefs and some Celtic beliefs.)
--- End quote ---
You're making a point about vagueness, but it seems to me like you are being pretty vague about the vagueness! What exactly do you find vague?
As far as the "practicing of rituals" goes, that is contrary to everything that Jesus came to teach. He was steady rebuking the Pharisees for being ritualistic. Sounds like you might relate a little bit with Martin Luther who fathered the reformation of the Roman Catholic church. Luther was a monk, and used to walk up the stairs of the temple on his bare knees to receive forgiveness for his sins. He felt that he had to somehow merit the favor and forgiveness of God by performing rituals and using Catholic relics. That continued for a while until he truely understood Ephesians 2: 8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." Once he understood that the mercy of God is unmerited through the death of Christ, it sparked him to challenge Roman Catholicism.
This is the foundation of Protestantism, that the practicing of rituals cannot save us from hell. Our rituals are as filthy rags in the sight of a Holy God. None of the animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant were good enough. That is why Christ came to offer Himself as our sacrifice. That if we believe in Him, we will be saved. Then we get into the whole book of James, and understand that when we truely put our faith in a perfect Jesus Christ, it leads us to start doing things a little bit differently. Obeying certain commandments will start to come a little more naturally. Of course, no earthly Christians is perfect, but God will see to it that through our faith in Christ, "he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1: 6)
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