What is the economy anyway ??

[starry-eyed pirate]

It's not the root of all evil.

No, it's not.  Injustice is generally rooted in the ego consciousness and the inability to recognize the ego for what it is.

... currency is here to stay so no point in belaboring the issue or dreaming of a Walden Utopia unless you are ready, able, and willing to live it.

Currency is here to stay, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't see it for what it is and be able to discuss the ways that using currency effects the lives of the people.  The idea that there is no point in discussing economic justice or justice in general or what you refer to here, as a "Walden Utopia", strikes me as defensive and irrational and reactionary and seems to imply guilt.  Why do you make a caricature of Justice ??

[starry-eyed pirate]

As long as there are humans....

...yeah, right, but that doesn't mean that our lives don't have inherent worth or value or that we should all just throw in the towel and forget what justice is.  Just another excuse not to look at whats happening.

[starry-eyed pirate]

Ignorant or apathetic? Or optimistic? Or comfortable with uncertainty... or just livin' in the moment?

... :roflmao: ...optimistic ?? or just self serving and greedy ??

Comfortable with uncertainty ??  Please.   :rofl:   I thought all of civilization was an attempt to arrest uncertainty.  That must be why the insurance industry is collapsing, because everyone is so comfortable with uncertainty.

[Samara]

I think you are purposely misunderstanding what I'm saying, Friend.


... :roflmao: ...optimistic ?? or just self serving and greedy ??  

I am saying there are many world views. People are allowed to be optimistic if they choose... I certainly wouldn't call optimists self serving and greedy.  I know plenty of people who are not.

Comfortable with uncertainty ?? Please. :rofl: I thought all of civilization was an attempt to arrest uncertainty. That must be why the insurance industry is collapsing, because everyone is so comfortable with uncertainty.


Some people are comfortable with uncertainty. Especially when they have insurance... But when it comes to global implosion, there is not much I can do individually. I can't predict the how/what/why/when.  So, why belabor it?  I'm not gonna live in a constant state of sturm and drang and angst that's for fucking sure.


...yeah, right, but that doesn't mean that our lives don't have inherent worth or value or that we should all just throw in the towel and forget what justice is. Just another excuse not to look at whats happening.

Who throwing in the towel and forgetting what justice is? Just because I won't live in a state of constant weltschmerz doesn't mean I forgot justice.  Justice/Fairness is extremely important to me. I try to live my life that way.

No, it's not. Injustice is generally rooted in the ego consciousness and the inability to recognize the ego for what it is.

I don't need psychobabble on ego consciousness to know injustice blows.

 Samara wrote: ... currency is here to stay so no point in belaboring the issue or dreaming of a Walden Utopia unless you are ready, able, and willing to live it.

Currency is here to stay, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't see it for what it is and be able to discuss the ways that using currency effects the lives of the people. The idea that there is no point in discussing economic justice or justice in general or what you refer to here, as a "Walden Utopia", strikes me as defensive and irrational and reactionary and seems to imply guilt. Why do you make a caricature of Justice ??

Defensive, irrational, and guilty? Are you projecting?  Don't assume where I am coming from. All I said was currency whether trade or other currency is here to stay. Period. It's never been infallibly fair.  Life has never been fair. Yet, I still strive as an individual to be fair and promote fairness. I never said there is no point in discussing economic unfairness but you seem to vacillate between pie in the sky idealism and total pessimism -  which is no solution at all. So there is a point in discussing - but why use circular, elliptical reasoning? And generally,people with their knickers twisted should be living what they advocate instead of clocking others on the head with rantings, accusations and ideologies.

[starry-eyed pirate]

I think you are purposely misunderstanding what I'm saying, Friend.

Why would I do that ??  

... :roflmao: ...optimistic ?? or just self serving and greedy ??  

I am saying there are many world views.  People are allowed to be optimistic if they choose.

I agree

I certainly wouldn't call optimists self serving and greedy.  I know plenty of people who are not. [/b]

I didn't mean to imply that optimists are self serving and greedy.  I meant to question whether or not these optimists are genuinely optimistic or if they simply serve their own purposes.

Comfortable with uncertainty ?? Please. :rofl: I thought all of civilization was an attempt to arrest uncertainty. That must be why the insurance industry is collapsing, because everyone is so comfortable with uncertainty.


Some people are comfortable with uncertainty. Especially when they have insurance... But when it comes to global implosion, there is not much I can do individually. I can't predict the how/what/why/when.  So, why belabor it?  I'm not gonna live in a constant state of sturm and drang and angst that's for fucking sure.

That quote about the triumph of evil requiring good folks to do nothing comes to mind and whatever the reality, humor heals, but if one seeks to adjust reality to suit their humor, there will be a shallow and unrewarding result.  My friends and I share a good bit of humor concerning the injustices of the world.  

...yeah, right, but that doesn't mean that our lives don't have inherent worth or value or that we should all just throw in the towel and forget what justice is. Just another excuse not to look at whats happening.

Who throwing in the towel and forgetting what justice is? Just because I won't live in a state of constant weltschmerz doesn't mean I forgot justice.  Justice/Fairness is extremely important to me. I try to live my life that way.

You misunderstand me if you think I am asking you to live in a constant state of weltschmerz.

No, it's not. Injustice is generally rooted in the ego consciousness and the inability to recognize the ego for what it is.

I don't need psychobabble on ego consciousness to know injustice blows.

Yeah, I didn't think you did.  I was responding to the idea that money was evil.  Though money is made the tool of injustice daily it seems to me that what we call evil really resides in the in the ego consciousness and the inability to see ones own ego in all it's subtle forms.

Samara wrote: ... currency is here to stay so no point in belaboring the issue or dreaming of a Walden Utopia unless you are ready, able, and willing to live it.

Currency is here to stay, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't see it for what it is and be able to discuss the ways that using currency effects the lives of the people. The idea that there is no point in discussing economic justice or justice in general or what you refer to here, as a "Walden Utopia", strikes me as defensive and irrational and reactionary and seems to imply guilt. Why do you make a caricature of Justice ??

Defensive, irrational, and guilty? Are you projecting?  Don't assume where I am coming from. All I said was currency whether trade or other currency is here to stay. Period. It's never been infallibly fair.  Life has never been fair. Yet, I still strive as an individual to be fair and promote fairness. I never said there is no point in discussing economic unfairness but you seem to vacillate between pie in the sky idealism and total pessimism -  which is no solution at all. So there is a point in discussing - but why use circular, elliptical reasoning? And generally,people with their knickers twisted should be living what they advocate instead of clocking others on the head with rantings, accusations and ideologies.

Sorry, if I misunderstood you.

[Paul St. John]

regardless of the acidification of our oceans,
and the burning and clearing of the worlds rain forests, the degradation of air quality, or the toxification of the water table, the eradication of indigenous, sustainable cultures, and unique animal/plant species, etc. Is that what you mean to convey ?? I hope not.

Most of these things are WAY overstated by pseudo-scientists, and others who just do not know what they are talking ab out. As to the extent, to which there is some truth, progress always has issues along the way, and the only people who don t notice that are the people who do not do anything. We are always finding better ways to do things. It is very hard to be perfect all the time.. Of course, if you do absolutely nothing at all, yuo will make no mistakes, and it is very easy to critique those who do. the one specific thing I would actually like to address is about the sustainable, indigenous cultures. No one has killed them or anything, and it could be taken that way, the way you put it.

But all in all, I am not going to lie, I care more about people then about rain forests, oceans, or plant species.


Paul[/b]

Man you are really missin it.

What is the "it' that I am missing?  Can you define it?

Paul

I've done my best.  I think if you consider what I'm saying as you look around, you might see it. Put away all your social conditioning.  forget your education and just look around.[/quote]


Right, as I help you refine your vision, with basic sensibility, because you have gotten it all figured out, and I am just a conditioned dolt.  



Paul

[starry-eyed pirate]

Right, as I help you refine your vision, with basic sensibility, because you have gotten it all figured out, and I am just a conditioned dolt.  



Paul[/quote]

Well, I wouldn't be so crude.  I have considered your words.  I thought you asked as I did. I have no ill will toward you. You have given me reason to consider what is really goin on, but you have yet to present a valid argument against my position.

No one has yet shown me a better understanding of justice, on this thread.  I am not seeking enemies.

[Paul St. John]

Right, as I help you refine your vision, with basic sensibility, because you have gotten it all figured out, and I am just a conditioned dolt.  



Paul

Well, I wouldn't be so crude.  I have considered your words.  I thought you asked as I did. I have no ill will toward you. You have given me reason to consider what is really goin on, but you have yet to present a valid argument against my position.

No one has yet shown me a better understanding of justice, on this thread.  I am not seeking enemies.[/quote]


Sorry took so long.. Ol' Paul has been Super Busy.. Anyhow.. I don t consider us enemies.. LOL.. In the end, it is your life, and you can do with it what you will.. I disagree with your ideas however.. and I do it quite proudly.. but as I said.. it s your life.. In regards to arguments , I do not think you understood most of what I wrote, and those things that you did, you simply assimilated, which is a good thing, in itself, I suppose.  Was I crude.. don t know.. Was really exhausted at the time I replied , and nonetheless so, right now. I did not like being preached to.. See to be completely honest with you, I think your ideas are ridiculous, and for you to set up an insinuation, that anyone who doesn t want to "drop out", is somehow indoctrined, and conditioned, got me just a bit pissed.  I am a very proud person.. Yes.. I question.. I do it frequently, and ruthlessly, but I don t do it on my knees.. I do it on my feet.

Paul