My Program.. The Anti-Program

[Che Gookin]

I've been learning to Scuba dive here in Cambodia. It honestly has been the most exhilarating part of my vacation to date. I was riding back on the dive boat yesterday after my underwater navigation dive for my Advanced Open Water qualification and I couldn't help but think how awesome it would have been to have my old Three Springs group along.

I propose the Anti-program...

This program is centered around a selection of activities designed to be fun and engaging. I've always known the best results from any group of kids comes when you teach them something fun.

Meh.. to bad.. would have been good fun..

I imagine JW, KH, TJ, and maybe RI would have been up on the roof of the dive boat arsing around. Good times though and no harm no foul.. just don't spill any of my beer.

Would have been cool though if their parents could have come along to participate. Their first dive together could have been a memorable experience. The after dive hot dog roast on the beach could have been a great time for the families to chill out and just be families.

Sad deal.. the programmes just don't teach anything really of use, nor do they get  past the punitive aspects. Tragic that these families aren't given the chance to chill out together and to do some cool stuff like Scuba diving.

Naptime for me.. I can't go diving again today.. damn hurricane or something like that forced a cancellation.

[Anonymous]

You know what's funny and sad at the same time?

Why didn't they just have the fucking program that was on the damn brochure? I never understood that. They sold one program to the parents and kids to get them hooked into the idea, then the experience was utterly and drastically different. For both the student, and the parent.

I swear to God man, if they simply offered the program as advertised, I wouldn't be here posting this shit about that fuckhole gulag.

The reason they lied in marketing materials and presented a completely draconian program in reality? I am just guessing here.
1. To maintain complete order to pack as many kids in as possible
2. They really believe the cult bullshit they were selling
3. They were mormons (not a guess) inflicting their mormon fundamentalism on the youth
4. They were sadistic motherfuckers who thought it was funny they could control hundreds of youth and make them do stupid things to each other and laugh at them
5. The parents wanted their children punished. If they didn't they would of sought out a better program with a better reputation and cost more money
6. Nobody gives a shit about other people's kids
7. Nobody gives a shit about "Troubnled kids"
8. Nobody gives a shit about "Druggie kids"
9. They don't pay the staff enough to give a shit
10. The parents don't pay the program enough to give a shit
11. The program owners are busy playing with their new toys from all the money they make
12. They keep making more money and want to keep the status quo
13. They are a bunch of motherfuckers
14. They had a bad childhood and want to spread the pain for the hell of it
15. They are stupid hicks who think child abuse builds character

I could go on and on I have a lot of theories but not a clear answer because it defies logic and basic humanities that most of us subscribe to. THey subscribe to their own set of rules layed down by their cult leader so they do things normal people would not do unless taught to, like a soldier is taught to kill, they are taught to kill teenager's dreams.


I think your idea is sound. remember that foaming at the mouth parent from earlier? That could of been my parent right there who recently passed away from cancer unexpectedly really fast. It was chilling like it was my parent talking to me from the grave!   But it helped me realize also I am finally free also so I brushed it off like droplets of rain.




Since parents who want to get rid of their kids are not going away any time soon I think it would benefit youth if there were programs that were more like summer camp for the whole family or even just the youth and the focus was not on torturing them. I have to be in an optimistic mood to say this, because everything I have ever seen in this industry (a lot) tell me this is not possible and a bad and naive idea to try.


But when presented with two situations, that both suck. One is going to suck more than the other.. mine as well try to pick the better one.



I think the problem is most families don't want to take the time to do this and they are coming from a place where they are battling their youth, and have such negative assumptions they just want to get rid of them for a while.

So maybe the best thing would be to advertise the program like Magnolia Ass-Paddler school or Tranquility Bay, then get those parents to send their kid to your program and treat them well instead of torturing them! Then you could scoop up the kids from the evil programs and try to get them in  a safe environment.

THis is what Lon and other advocates try to do and it doesn't seem to work very well though. But I Think it's better than nothing. Whether we like it or not kids are continuing to be placed.

I wonder if in some alternate universe the Tranquility Bay is like some sort of youth resort facility/ The only thing that makes the difference is the people in charge. Parents seem to employ these terrorist program regimes that oppress their children.

From my perspective thats what it looks like anyways. '

Scuba diving sounds fun ! Have a fun time and don't get hurt like that guy who got a barb through his heart or anything! Be careful! DOn't come to the surface too quickly I heard you can bend and break your back.

[Anonymous]

your program already exists in the form of summer camps, NOLS and Outward Bound.

it is wilderness, there have been bad experiences but overall i'd say o.b and nols are pretty good. o.b isnt as good as nols, there not as professional, but they each have pluses and minuses. i got sent to o.b in minisota and although i had a tough time, in the long term it helped a great deal. it was tough, alot of hiking, had to drink lake water with iodine and eat trail food, but thats the way it's done. the counselors ate the same food and drank the same water, and carried their share of the weight plus all extras. the counselors/guides were, i dont know if this makes sense but it describes them perfectly: conservative hippies. they all obviously had their fair share of psychedelics and weed, but they never admit it and act anti-drug. both programs have things for young adults, adults, and seniors even, and o.b even has a program where parents go with their kids. imagine forcing your parents to go to wilderness with you.... and they even have semester and year long programs for college credit. nols even goes to india, mongolia, chile, brazil, among some other crazy places. i'm personally considering the india one...imagine spending 3 months hiking the himalayas, chillin with sadhus all the while getting a full semester's college credit for it.

[Che Gookin]

Scuba diving sounds fun ! Have a fun time and don't get hurt like that guy who got a barb through his heart or anything! Be careful! DOn't come to the surface too quickly I heard you can bend and break your back.

Called the bends.. or decompression sickness.. basically to much nitrogen builds up in your blood stream and you are gonna be hurting.

The rest of your posts makes some good points. I think you should really take the time to expose the fraud perpetuated by the programmes. You seem to have a good handled on it. I know I saw the same sorry crap at 3 turds... slick website.. convincing tour.. take the parents to the nice campsite.. avoid the messed up groups.. blah blah blah..

Really.. take the time to develop some exposure on this particular issue. I know of an e-zine that would run any article you can prepare with your first hand accounts.

Feel free to fire up another account and drop me a line about it.

your program already exists in the form of summer camps, NOLS and Outward Bound.

it is wilderness, there have been bad experiences but overall i'd say o.b and nols are pretty good. o.b isnt as good as nols, there not as professional, but they each have pluses and minuses. i got sent to o.b in minisota and although i had a tough time, in the long term it helped a great deal. it was tough, alot of hiking, had to drink lake water with iodine and eat trail food, but thats the way it's done. the counselors ate the same food and drank the same water, and carried their share of the weight plus all extras. the counselors/guides were, i dont know if this makes sense but it describes them perfectly: conservative hippies. they all obviously had their fair share of psychedelics and weed, but they never admit it and act anti-drug. both programs have things for young adults, adults, and seniors even, and o.b even has a program where parents go with their kids. imagine forcing your parents to go to wilderness with you.... and they even have semester and year long programs for college credit. nols even goes to india, mongolia, chile, brazil, among some other crazy places. i'm personally considering the india one...imagine spending 3 months hiking the himalayas, chillin with sadhus all the while getting a full semester's college credit for it.

I've thought about doing a course down in Australia a few times. Unfortunately the costs place it out of my realm. Why don't you investigate the parent child course some more and develop some hard information on it with some 1st hand accounts. Like above I happen to know an e-zine in the works that would be willing to print an article on it.

Particularly the material about the parent/child trips. I'd be curious to know from both a kid's perspective and a parent's perspective.

same deal.. drop me a line if you can develop anything. This sort of alternative doesn't get enough attention..

[Anonymous]

You know what's funny and sad at the same time?

Why didn't they just have the fucking program that was on the damn brochure? I never understood that. They sold one program to the parents and kids to get them hooked into the idea, then the experience was utterly and drastically different. For both the student, and the parent.

I swear to God man, if they simply offered the program as advertised, I wouldn't be here posting this shit about that fuckhole gulag.

But it still wouldn't be right to send a kid away against his will without due process and legal representation, and any so-called therapy would be just as useless if it's involuntary.

I think the problem is most families don't want to take the time to do this and they are coming from a place where they are battling their youth, and have such negative assumptions they just want to get rid of them for a while.

It sucks even more when the family actually has positive assumptions and optimism that things will get better, but the reality just gets worse and worse. Maybe sometimes a separation can be a good thing, but it has to be voluntary.
 

THis is what Lon and other advocates try to do and it doesn't seem to work very well though. But I Think it's better than nothing. Whether we like it or not kids are continuing to be placed.

No! Please don't refer to Lon or his ilk as advocates -- he makes his living off of program placements. And just because kids are continuing to be placed doesn't mean it has to be that way. Laws can and do change.

Work on changing the laws and improving youth rights. There is no reason to settle for 'less abusive' programs being better than 'more abusive' ones.

[Oz girl]

This is why you guys have the fine institution of summer camp. Why not have less organized activities for older kids and just let them make their own mistakes? This seems like the best sort of "unprogram"

[Ursus]

your program already exists in the form of summer camps, NOLS and Outward Bound.

it is wilderness, there have been bad experiences but overall i'd say o.b and nols are pretty good. o.b isnt as good as nols, there not as professional, but they each have pluses and minuses. i got sent to o.b in minisota and although i had a tough time, in the long term it helped a great deal. it was tough, alot of hiking, had to drink lake water with iodine and eat trail food, but thats the way it's done. the counselors ate the same food and drank the same water, and carried their share of the weight plus all extras. the counselors/guides were, i dont know if this makes sense but it describes them perfectly: conservative hippies. they all obviously had their fair share of psychedelics and weed, but they never admit it and act anti-drug. both programs have things for young adults, adults, and seniors even, and o.b even has a program where parents go with their kids. imagine forcing your parents to go to wilderness with you.... and they even have semester and year long programs for college credit. nols even goes to india, mongolia, chile, brazil, among some other crazy places. i'm personally considering the india one...imagine spending 3 months hiking the himalayas, chillin with sadhus all the while getting a full semester's college credit for it.

ONE problem with National Outdoor Leadership School and Outward Bound: a lot of the staff involved with (TTI) wilderness programs receive their training at NOLS and OB.

You'd think that part of that training would involve knowhow re. appropriate circumstances and individuals to take on such expeditions, but... apparently there's some differing opinion on that.