HR 911 FAN Bois.. Think hard and ask questions..

[Che Gookin]

Questions are free to ask. If you are going to put so much faith into your government to create a purpose made branch of an agency or an entirely new stand alone agency shouldn't you be interested in demanding answers ahead of time of exactly what you'll end up paying for?

Or are you one of the trusting types?

YOU really trust the same government that spawned the Transportation Safety Administration?

I have question.. I want to know what role SAMHSA will play in this. The Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration to be exact.

I ask this because of the following:



and of course a little more digging reveals....




Now I'm not half the digger of dirt as some of your drug war insurgents are. But I do suspect there is a bit of a connection between this Phoenix Foundation and the infamous Phoenix House spin off.

Curious that... very curious..

So what the hell is a Modified Therapeutic Community?

What makes this an evidence based approach?

And why does that phrase seem so familiar? It is because ASTART has been railing on about it for years on end and it's a logical jump for a program to adopt the phrase as their own in the never ending morphing of programs?

Maybe.. I dunno.. I'm curious to find out though.

So who researched this MTC concept?

What is the connection between them and Drug Free America... *cough* *cough*  Mel and Betty Sembler?

As a curious asides.. and I do not intend nor do I mean to imply any connection.. but what is Miller's voting record on SAMHSA? Has his office picked up on this? Have they been asking who the hell the Phoenix Foundation is and are they aware of the connection between the Foundation and Synonan?

Look peeps.. It's ok to ask questions.. It's ok to demand answers. One of my primary objections to HR 911 is the seeming lack of questions in regards to how exactly this is going to work. Questions on what will happen if it turns into your typical American governmental clusterfuck. Questions on the role and legal limits these Federal investigators will have into state level legal issues. Questions on the exact methods of enforcement of these minimal standards.

[Che Gookin]

Err.. sorry, by Phoenix Foundation I mean Phoenix Programs. I seem to have crossed the streams with MacGyver and the TTI.

Too lazy to go back and sort it out.

[N.O.S.O.B.]

[Che Gookin]

I dunno the answers to your question, but thank god someone is finally asking some.

Let's not rush into this shit.

ASK hard questions.

And bite  me Dragonfly, I WANT us all to have 2 hours to talk to Sparky Mcfucknuts Miller.

And I tend to call everyone names whether they help or not. It's just my robust enthusiasm for being a ballbuster. I look at a guy like Miller and see that's he's been in Congress for most of his professional life making decisions about things he's never really worked in or had experience with and somewhat startled.

I'm gonna go back to torrenting Hung and writing Star Wars Fanfic for a bit. This entire issue and the passive headlong charge for government misregulation is really freaking annoying the living hell out of me.

Hasn't anyone learned yet from the 200 plus years of US government mismanagement in just about everything it's touched?

Bah.. people need to be more critical of their elected officials and start demanding the following:

WHY
HOW
WHAT
HOW MUCH
WHEN
WHO
WHICH
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN..
WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY??

See one thing I think we need to do is stop thinking we are powerless. We really aren't powerless. Not by a longshot we are powerless. The very fact that survivors, advocaidiots, reporters, liars for hire, and scum like me have impacted programs and the harm they do is because we have power.

It might be hard to see at times, but our voices are our strength.

Well that and the ability to sue the shit out of programs. Which if I'm not mistaken might be seriously impaired under HR911.

Would love to know more about that.

[Ursus]

It might be hard to see at times, but our voices are our strength.

Well that and the ability to sue the shit out of programs. Which if I'm not mistaken might be seriously impaired under HR911.

Would love to know more about that.

I'd like to know more about that as well.

[Che Gookin]

http://http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hilden/20031015.html

So wait.. you mean to tell me the could have been using the Interstate Commerce Act to go after fraudulent programs all along?


To supporters of Federal Government Action, I salute you.

 :notworthy:

Your blind misplaced faith is stunning and staggering all at the same time.

 :suicide:

[blombrowski]

http://democrats.edworkforce.house.gov/ ... rams-teens

So the actual text of the legislation hasn't come out yet, but I sense an angle to the new version.  Simply put, even where states have licensing in place, they can't be trusted on their own to license residential programs in their state.  Using Five Oaks, Daystar, UHS/Pines, Sagewalk, and Cedar Ridge Academy as examples (all licensed programs), what this bill seems to be about is saying to the states, HHS needs to take over this responsibility since you seeming can't do it.

Interestingly, they got Child Welfare League and the American Association of Children's Residential Centers to sign on.  It's hard to tell if they're serious about getting this legislation through or not, but the bill as written would have real impact, depending on who actually staffs that office within HHS.

[N.O.S.O.B.]

[Che Gookin]

Interestingly, they got Child Welfare League and the American Association of Children's Residential Centers to sign on.  It's hard to tell if they're serious about getting this legislation through or not, but the bill as written would have real impact, depending on who actually staffs that office within HHS.

I doubt it will have a lasting effect, but the upfront ramifications certainly ought to be amusing to watch.

It occurs to me though the ignored possibility of actually suing the shit out of this new government organization for failing to do the job it is mandated to do exists. The Environmental liars for hire did to force the EPA to enforce carbon emissions laws.

So there is that for the long term.

[wdtony]

I have been thinkin' about your whole thing with HR 911.  I am going to lay out my whole cirlce of thought.  Mainly I am glad you care about closing programs, more on that later. Has to do with Teen Challenge and SAMHSA and "research" they are doing to prove thier effectiveness.....

The main thing is that here's Miller doin' all this politicking and I wonder why.  I mean I think the guy is really moved and alarmed and wants to help and he is in the system so he's doing what he can.  I don't like it when you call him names, I think he is doing as much as he can.

It's too bad there are no survivors in office who can figure out how to explain the reality of these places in the 30 second sound byte that you have to frame it in.

ANyway....it's sort of like voting...in a way if you vote you are agreeing to be governed, and the least we can do is not give consent to be governed by crooks at least.  So more and more I go back to my original stance of HR 911 gives validation to a methodology that is wrong no matter how you paint it.  and HR 911 is just going to enable the whole thing....

But then I think at least it will make the brainwashing more humane while we wait another 100 years for society to realize what the African American slaves and the Native Americans have known for hundreds of years....White Men in suits deal in evil and that is about all they are familiar with.

My questions are   1.  What do we have to do to get an hour to talk with Miller?  2. How come they have millions of dollars to regulate the torture when they don't have anything to help the victims of torture?  3. How come they don't have millions to figure out what the hell is going on that makes kids so demoralized to begin with?  4.  What is it going to take to change the whole professional community that sees brainwashing as therapeutic when it's done well?  5. How come the Assemblies of God gets a million bucks a year from the Federal Government to treat addiction with Jesus?  I heard that SAMHSA is currently trying to provide evidence that faith based addiction treatment is effective.  WHat is that an dwehre is Miller on that one?

WHy does the screen bounce so bad when I get to the bottom of the page?

There is very little JUSTICE to be found. Evil ones are not held accountable due to power and money and the complacency of the average citizen. Plus we are left with few choices...wait a hundred years for justice or take it into your own hands and get a life term in prison while accomplishing very little... I think that answers most of the questions. Things are a lot better than 4 years ago...a lot of progress has been made. one thing to remember though, evil will always exist in one form or another, and there is only so much good we can do. So do what you can and be content with knowing you've done your part.

[Froderik]

When I called Health and Human Services a couple weeks ago, they said they do not even take "quality of care complaints" meaning the whole of HHS, that is not even in the reality of HHS, it's totally up the states.  My point is, there is nothing in place.

That was the Human Rights Department, office of the Director.

It's going to be a giantic miraculous understaking to actually get this bill in place....it's a huge project....god help us all....

I'm glad that it could possibly help, and I am concerned that the psychological manipulation will just be certified soft torture.

Why is Brainwashing legal?  I mean real captive brainwashing.re-indoctrination-re-education, coercive behavior-modification, thought reform....why is it legal on kids....

According to the Military report I read and I'll dig it up for you if you want....Brainwashing is illegal on adult terrorists at Guantanamo, why is it legal on American kids?

I don't see why we can put computers in a little thing like a cell phone and put survielance equipment in butterflys and have all this military technology and yet we have nothing better to off our demoralized teens than brainwashing.....that's the best we can do?

Why are we happy about the bill?  I mean I'm happy about it....but it makes no sense....why was the issue of brainwashing not addressed?

I guess I will see if I can ask Miller's office that question.

Important questions.

[Ursus]

Cross-post from the thread discussing Maia Szalavitz's recent article on this bill:

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

The legislation would prohibit sexual, physical and emotional abuse and would ban the use of deprivation — of food, sleep, clothing and shelter, for example — as punishment or for any other reason. The use of physical restraint would be permitted only for safety, and all programs would be required to provide residents with "reasonable" access to a telephone. It would require staff to be educated about what specifically counts as child abuse and how to report it, and mandate programs to disclose staff qualifications to parents.

My main problem with with this bill, at least with how it is summarized by Maia, is that it omits psychological coercion from the list of prohibited abuses. Also, that it leaves a wide open loophole for TBSs and other programs of that ilk to market themselves as being basically "schools," and hence not subject to the constraints of this bill.

In programs utilizing substantial degrees of psychological coercion, students have been convinced that physical abuse and sexual abuse that they've been subjected to is actually their own fault. These students may not even think to complain or make use of something like an easily accessed phone, let alone call a hotline. By the time they wake up to this fact, they are long past their time in program. Some folks never quite wake up to it.

This is not to say that the net effect of such coercion is minimal. Far from it. In some cases, the damage has been life-long. To subject someone to coercion is to regress them, which is hardly beneficial to anyone, let alone an adolescent in the process of determining his/her self identity. Although this has been known for several decades, for some reason the APA has been loathe to take a stand on it, at least as to how it pertains to programs intended to modify behavior.

[wdtony]

Cross-post from the thread discussing Maia Szalavitz's recent article on this bill:

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

The legislation would prohibit sexual, physical and emotional abuse and would ban the use of deprivation — of food, sleep, clothing and shelter, for example — as punishment or for any other reason. The use of physical restraint would be permitted only for safety, and all programs would be required to provide residents with "reasonable" access to a telephone. It would require staff to be educated about what specifically counts as child abuse and how to report it, and mandate programs to disclose staff qualifications to parents.

My main problem with with this bill, at least with how it is summarized by Maia, is that it omits psychological coercion from the list of prohibited abuses. Also, that it leaves a wide open loophole for TBSs and other programs of that ilk to market themselves as being basically "schools," and hence not subject to the constraints of this bill.

In programs utilizing substantial degrees of psychological coercion, students have been convinced that physical abuse and sexual abuse that they've been subjected to is actually their own fault. These students may not even think to complain or make use of something like an easily accessed phone, let alone call a hotline. By the time they wake up to this fact, they are long past their time in program. Some folks never quite wake up to it.

This is not to say that the net effect of such coercion is minimal. Far from it. In some cases, the damage has been life-long. To subject someone to coercion is to regress them, which is hardly beneficial to anyone, let alone an adolescent in the process of determining his/her self identity. Although this has been known for several decades, for some reason the APA has been loathe to take a stand on it, at least as to how it pertains to programs intended to modify behavior.

I haven't read the new bill yet but I agree that something prohibiting brainwashing should be included. funding for the SEED was pulled by the government primarily for this concern. That might be a good example to bring up to George Miller when requesting amendments to the bill.

But first, the appropriations have to be diminished greatly, otherwise this bill wouldn't have a chance. It's too expensive. This is why I suggest that investigators/regulators work with a network of survivors so that we can root out the brainwashing issues in programs. But maybe there is a simpler way.

[Xelebes]

The problem is that there is no clear method in how brainwashing is conducted.  It seems to be a loose bundle of practices, each of which may be unethical, unfounded or downright abusive.  What the legislation will have to do is define the practices that are detrimental and may have to avoid such terms as psychological coercion, thought reform or brainwashing.

Practices that might be defined under the legislation:

- group therapy whereby the patients administer the therapy with no or minimal intervention from the accredited professional overseeing
- use of isolation for sustained periods of time without substantial supervision (that is, you must be actively watching.)  
- use of physical force and invasion of boundary to administer therapy
- use of sustained deception to administer therapy
- use of false imprisonment (denying phonecalls to parents, lawyers, authorities)
- use of restraints for punishment instead of safety

[Che Gookin]

It's the fucking Federal government. They are funding Teen Challenge and the Phoenix House amongst other travesties.

Reform the fucking FED before you expect those douchenozzles to get serious about going after programs.

And I give it a week or so before the programs morph into the new Program Lite that will be duly sanctioned by good Mr. Spanky Miller's abortion of a bill.

But what you can't and won't ever be able to reform is the power that corrupts even the most purest of souls.

So fuck this stupid shit.