Author Topic: HR 911, uggh, again....  (Read 8786 times)

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Offline wdtony

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2011, 01:23:50 AM »
So many factors...so many things could change before the bill goes in front of the House or the Senate. Part of me thinks it is premature to draw conclusions about this legislation....Nevertheless, another part of me thinks that it is vital to dissect this old bill and be prepared so that we don't have a reinactment of last time.

One thing I think is important to mention is the fact that due to the bill being generated an investigation was conducted resulting in the legitimacy of the troubled teen phenomena. In essence, the government recognized and brought forth proof that this issue is in fact real. This has been an effective tool in convincing parents as well as the public at large that this issue is real and our experiences aren't some delusion.

but, yes Che, I absolutely see what you are saying, you are speaking realistically. I think it might be another thwarted attempt to regulate this industry that may not be very effective even if it is passed. But, this is the way the laws are in this country and if this is our best shot, then we must take it. I do not see any of this resulting in a complete "fix" but to continue the fight is a great way to raise awareness.

Bottom line, the bill needs some serious amending but I think it could be a huge step in the right direction.

I am choosing to be optimistic rather than realistic.
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2011, 12:46:40 PM »
Tony, I'm gonna make a bet with you.

It'll cost you nothing. In fact, its only going to cost me no matter whether I win or lose.

If I win, I pay 50 dollars, If I lose I pay 100 dollars to the charity of my choice. I say my choice because I have a few favorite that I've looked into and have seen the good work they do. I donate money to a few groups here in Asia, about time I opened up my wallet again anyway.

I bet that not only will this bill be bumrushed into congress it's going to be bumrushed more or less intact as it was. From what I'm gathering the window of opportunity to make changes is rather small.

So let's say 25 percent change of the original legislation. I'll let you be the judge of it as well.

There is not bet on if it passes or not. 250 million or whatever millions of dollars ensures it won't be passed. As soon as the Republicans latch onto this they'll go into a frenzy. There isn't a democrat out there that will go out on life or limb for this legislation when they are staring down the twin barrels of a pissed off voting public shotgun.

To be honest, I object to the idea of throwing a huge wad of money at the problem. It seems to me that the only people standing to benefit are Advocaidiots and lawyers. Both of which I think are parasites. Do I really want a bunch of barely trained Matlock Wannabe advocaidiots running around representing kids in programs? The only reason the CASA program works, Court Appointed Special Advocate, is because the Advocates belong to a seasoned organization that provides support and training.

BOTH of which are massively lacking in the the current advocate groups. I like most of you survivor types, there are a few I really do think are morons, but over all most survivors of the older generation have struck me as pretty solid people.  I like most of you all, I really do, but I'm not sure I follow the logic of having survivors out policing programs. I'd personally rather have trained law enforcement officials doing that. At least they can shoot people and get away with it.

Survivors as advocates for kids on the other hands makes sense to me. But that's a function already provided by a current organization, aka CASA. Has anyone gotten with CASA and popped the question about a possible expansion into this market?

Of course not, because they won't do it. Why would they when rarely ever do any of these kids ever see the light of day in a court room.

Now if this bill was about pushing the Washington state law that allows 13 year olds to say fuck off to unwanted therapy I'd be jumping up and down and wetting my pants with joy. At least that wouldn't cost the taxpayers anything beyond having the electric bill at congress run up during all the speeches for and against it.

It's a powerful law that MOST definitely without question is in the right direction. It forces the situation from the home and program and into the courts. The same courts where CASA and thousands of pro-bono lawyers. Other organizations are out there as well. Loads of them. All sort of them that are looking for volunteers.

Here is a question for you specifically Tony. I hear a fair bit about this Levine fellow. Has anyone ever asked him what he thinks about this Washington State law?

Why are we being so set on an unproven piece of legislation when we've already seen the baaawing from parents in Washington State?

My take on the comparison of HR 911 and the WA. STate law, HR 911 provides too many questions regarding it's effectiveness and a huge amount of speculation as to whether it'll make things worst or not and the other already has a track record of protecting the rights of young men and women.

Sorry, gotta say on a realistic point of view here I think the movement is settling for waaaaaaaaaay too fucking little and hoping for waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much out of a few talking head pundits and politicians. All of them who either are badly informed or have alternate agendas. You ever wonder why some of the usual suspect advocaidiots are so hot for this bill?

I have myself, best answer I have... Money.. lots of it.. keeping them in lots of money through government grants.

To do what?

Beats the fuck out of me, I don't see a single advocaidiot organization out there capable of doing much of anything even if they had the money. Not sure why they'd even need money if this was pushed into the courts as well given that there are already numerous experienced organizations out there for us to join with.

HEAL?

Dude... seriously.. do I need to even say anything? I've gotten to the point where I can say Angela's name with out spitting or swearing. I doubt she'd even bother with taking Federal money anyway.

CAFETY?

Hur... lol, right.. I think they mean well, try hard, and have the occasional good idea, but really...

SIA?

Ain't they the folks doing a survivor reunion on the Queen fucking Mary? That's nice of them, I'm sure they'll get a huge turn out.....

 :nods:

ISAC..

They went under..

TAUSA..

Don't even know if Barbe Stampe is even still alive. I suspect zombies ate her brains years ago.

FICA..

uhhh.. I think Kathy Moya is a great person, but my impression of FICA has always been that it is Kathy Moya.. and well that's about it.. Just Kathy.


I'd mention the YLF, but that bad boy got shoved down a garbage disposer by yours truly. Not a bad thing either... somethings just need to go away till a better time. Like when I grow up past my current mental age of 13.

Good luck with all of this though. I think maybe I need to go back to not caring for awhile or focusing on other efforts. I've always been a soft one for orphans. Possibly coz I'm one myself. Mebbe it's time for me to spend some more time on that for awhile. This entire HR 911 thing is really pissing me off and I don't want to sit here and watch what is probably going to be a repeat of the last fiasco.
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Offline BuzzKill

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2011, 01:40:39 PM »
The organized efforts to inform have not been without numerous challenges - trauma and drama and petty bickering over minor differences -  who gets credit, or who is a fuk-tard, excetera. I grant you this has been frustrating and disappointing. But at least they are doing Something real - something requiring time and effort; a lot of emotional pain for only very occasional glimpses of victory.  I feel a bit vexed that you so casually dismiss all this  - that you are so disrespectful of these people who in some cases have sacrificed at heroic levels.  And even if the victories are few, they are very real - and there is no reason to demean effort to see greater victories yet.
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Offline wdtony

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2011, 04:56:26 PM »
Che,

It is difficult to speak about all of this because I have differing pewrspectives in my own mind about this bill and the future of it.

I will say that I think all of your concerns are valid. Most of which I have pondered at one time.

I have not asked Mwrk Levine about the Washington law. He is a busy person and I doubt any good would come from asking him about it. I think he is sold on the idea that federal regulation is needed. Of course, I am assuming, I can't read minds.

Yes, I agree the bill in its current text would never pass due to the expenditures included. I am hoping to see that number diminish greatly. Even then, John Boehner (Big KHK supporter) and the Republicans who voted against this bill in the house last time probably won't let it through unless some of those politicos are voted out.

At any rate, I am a spectator and I will hope for the best. I look at it like this: we gotta root for our team even though they might suck this year. Even if the bill doesn't pass, we still win in some ways in legitimizing the issue in the top echelons of our government. This bill puts the issue squarely in their face and we are recognized.....the kids being tortured presently are recognized and acknowledged.

I am like you in that I am impatient. And your frustrration is shared by many. The same fiasco may happen again.....but it may be entirely different. It's not like I have to put a lot of time into it.

I don't understand the laws very well and I am sure that no law is worth it's weight in salt if there is no enforcement. so I do think that we already have law enforcement and the FBI..... I don't see why we need appropriations in the bill at all. Let's just change how programs are classified ( Ummm.... the Bush white house did this by changing language in the law, eg. enemy combatants, insurgents, detainees, instead of POW's) and voila, you can now walk into programs and investigate 3rd party complaints of abuse and fine them, investigate or close them.

And require all programs that work with children put the name of their program on a list so we know how many of them that there are.....with a hefty fine and closure if you fail to go on the list.

So, I guess I think the bill needs to be overhauled in a way, but that's only because I am not intelligent enough to see what future ramifications the current bill would produce or how (or if) it will be enforced.

Programs do not want this bill to pass....so they must know something I don't. Due to that, I am for it.

Feel free to give your money to whomever you like. I don't gamble, I receive no enjoyment from it. Peace-out.
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2011, 06:46:24 PM »
Quote from: "BuzzKill"
The organized efforts to inform have not been without numerous challenges - trauma and drama and petty bickering over minor differences -  who gets credit, or who is a fuk-tard, excetera. I grant you this has been frustrating and disappointing. But at least they are doing Something real - something requiring time and effort; a lot of emotional pain for only very occasional glimpses of victory.  I feel a bit vexed that you so casually dismiss all this  - that you are so disrespectful of these people who in some cases have sacrificed at heroic levels.  And even if the victories are few, they are very real - and there is no reason to demean effort to see greater victories yet.

Definitely heroic, in the tragic classical Greek sense.
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2011, 06:53:52 PM »
Quote
Even if the bill doesn't pass, we still win in some ways in legitimizing the issue in the top echelons of our government. This bill puts the issue squarely in their face and we are recognized.....the kids being tortured presently are recognized and acknowledged.

This we can agree on. I've always felt this is the only real potential gain. Air time on cable news and recognition. I just wish people were on track for the aftermath of this that will be coming along when this bill gets binned. Perhaps this would be the time to strike when the iron is hot.  Unlike last time where everyone went home and played with their toys I'm hoping to see a real effort put into place for pushing a federal WA state like law.

I think it is awesome you are being optimistic on this Tony. Not everyone should be like me... cynical and joyously offensive, but bear with me on the notion that the defeat of this bill opens the window for the ushering in of something better.
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2011, 09:12:40 PM »
http://www.parent.net/facts/archive/youthrights.shtml

This is what I'm talking about regarding a youth bill of rights, something in this tone.
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Offline Froderik

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2011, 09:51:16 PM »
Quote from: "Che Gookin"
http://www.parent.net/facts/archive/youthrights.shtml

This is what I'm talking about regarding a youth bill of rights, something in this tone.

 :tup:
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Offline Froderik

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2011, 10:22:10 PM »
This quote from one of my favorite novels comes to mind, concerning all of this:

"But to tear down a factory or to revolt against a government or to avoid repair of a motorcycle because it is a system is to attack effects rather than causes; and as long as the attack is upon effects only, no change is possible. The true system, the real system, is our present construction of systematic thought itself, rationality itself, and if a factory is torn down but the rationality which produced it is left standing, then that rationality will simply produce another factory. If a revolution destroys a systematic government, but the systematic patterns of thought that produced that government are left intact, then those patterns will repeat themselves in the succeeding government. There’s so much talk about the system. And so little understanding."

(italics added by me)
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Offline wdtony

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2011, 02:44:14 AM »
Che, I like the link. I agree with the sentiment. Now if you could widdle that into a bill utilizing our already existing law enforcement with only a small increase in funding, I'd be all for it.  We think about this HR 911 thing more than you realize. The biggest difference is between our attitudes ( how we choose to approach and think about this legislation)and not our examination of the circumstances.

Froderik, I agree with the statement about leaving old thought systems and people in place. That is why I must side with those who don't want to improve programs, but those who want to close them. Protesting PFC taught me most of what I need to know about negotiating with program owners. If any programs are to exist, I believe it should be with the right people with good intentions and proper regulation. An open door policy should not be an option, but it should be the law when dealing with teens and treatment.

I suppose the Nazi's are a good example of why there must be a regime change when it comes to troubled teen programs. You don't regulate the nazi's and hope the prison camps are regulated by peer review or self regulation. You take the nazi's to Nuremberg trials and hope they don't make it to South America.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2011, 03:46:39 AM »
.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 01:07:35 AM by Anonymous »

Offline wdtony

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2011, 04:08:33 AM »
Quote from: "Wayne Kernochan"
Why is this bill being rushed? No one is going to change their vote and rushing it prevents people from lobbying the congresspeople who voted against it the first time

It seems like a waste of time and money.

Where does the money go?


I am hoping the money will be taken out of the bill. I agree with Che, it doesn't stand a chance if it is the least bit expensive.

As for being rushed, I am not sure what you mean. It is only being reintroduced, so I've heard.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2011, 05:06:56 AM »
.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2011, 05:09:01 AM »
.
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Offline wdtony

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2011, 05:20:35 AM »
Quote from: "Wayne Kernochan"
The vote  http://www.opencongress.org/vote/2009/h/72

Seems republicans hate protecting kids in programs Fuckers

Funny thing, I was a registered Republican (I have no idea why because I didn't follow politics) all my life but after I found that almost all politicians supporting these programs were Republicans, well I just had to go and register as an Independent.

I think the bill could still pass in the house but I am unsure if the speaker of the house can change that. You see, Boehner supported KHK, the program I was successfully brainwashed in. And now he is in a position to impede any anti-child abuse bill. BTW, he voted against HR 911 last time.

The good news is that we have a decent Senate and if the senate help committee is made up of the right people we might have a chance at it passing in there. Of course, I have heard that it might have been a better idea to have a senator sponsor the bill and work it from the other direction. But i don't have enough smarts to know if that would be any better.

101 Republicans in the house voted against it last time, one dumbass Dem. from Idaho (HR 911). I would assume it will be higher this time but it still could squeak by. If the Boehner thing doesn't pose a problem.
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