Author Topic: HR 911, uggh, again....  (Read 11683 times)

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Offline Xelebes

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2011, 02:50:40 PM »
Danny, knock it off.
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2011, 02:55:12 PM »
...
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 07:38:45 PM by DannyB II »
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Offline Xelebes

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2011, 02:59:44 PM »
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Xelebes"
Danny, knock it off.

Listen let me tell you something clown, I have only just started. if you want things to knock off then get honest, get fair and knock off the enabling and get Wayne (or whoever he is) off this site. He is not a survivor and never has been.
So I tell you and others get honest do your investigation of Wayne or as far as I go STFU.

Listen here Gozo, there are many clowns here who can trash the forum as much as we please.  Unless there are no issues to discuss, we can trash it all we want.  It would seem that there are more important issues to discuss than whether or not you committed something specific or not.  We are not here to finagle.  The pettiness has got to end - either bring out the axe or bury the hatchet.
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2011, 03:11:55 PM »
...
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 07:38:18 PM by DannyB II »
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Offline 325troll

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2011, 06:50:07 PM »
Danny calm down.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 07:22:26 PM by 325troll »

Offline Che Gookin

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #65 on: October 02, 2011, 07:21:19 PM »
Quote from: "blombrowski"
Just some other thoughts about the reality of licensing.  I say this as someone who works for a licensing agency and is involved in program oversight, but not the actual renewal of licenses (i.e. we take complaints and investigate and involve the certification team if need be, but are not the ones doing annual inspections).  And has seen first hand the practice of our own agency as well as other agencies in the state.

First of all, the relationship between provider and licensor tends to be cozy.  Not cozy in an illegal, money under the table kind of way, but in the going to the same church, kids go to the same school kind of way.  Licensors have more of a personal relationship with the providers than with the kids, so in the event of a he said, she said situation, who do you think they're going to be inclined to side with?

Second, and this is particularly true with child welfare agencies, but similar dynamics play out with the mental health and juvenile justice systems.  Licensing agencies rely on the capacity that bad programs provide.  For instance we have a private psychiatric hospital in a NYC suburb that has been under threat to be closed for at least the last 4 years, that seems to take almost exclusively foster care kids from NYC.  How is that?  Our foster care system can't find enough foster parents to take in kids who have special needs, so they need the hospital beds to keep them off the street or out of the shelters.  As long as they're in the hospital they're not the agency's problem.  The hospital does just enough to stay open, because an entire system has made the decision that it's better that a youth receive substandard care in a psychiatric hospital, then be left in the community to their own devices.  If something bad happens in the hospital, it'll be the hospital that gets blamed.  If something happens in the community, the foster care agency has liability.

Third, keeping in the foster care realm.  I've come to the conclusion that there's a subconscious calculus that plays in the mind of child protective workers - is this a child that's more likely to be killed or harder to place.  Meaning lots of minority infants who have parents who aren't necessarily abusive, but there are serious concerns they may neglect their child to death, who they feel like they can find foster placements for get placed, but teenagers getting beaten by their parents don't.  Assuming they meet that threshold, as the case worker is my liability higher if I remove the child or if I keep the child in the home.  Translation - (Rich white abusive parents sue when their child is taken away by CPS, poor black parents don't).  The threat of a lawsuit is enough to outweigh the worry of a front page story in the New York Post.

The MBA case perfectly illustrates these realities.  DHS took action that they probably wouldn't have in the first place because they didn't have any of their own youth in Mount Bachelor.  But when Aspen retaliated with a lawsuit, and when Aspen got parents to threaten to sue DHS as well, DHS got cold feet and settled.

Any state licensing regime will have those realities.  And there are in some cases ways to get around the lack of licensing by going to the local Protection and Advocacy organization in your state.  

The solution is to have a credible enough threat so that the licensing agencies fear the exposure that you can bring to bear on them over the exposure from the programs.  But to do that you have to be credible, believable, and organized, and have a very good answer for when those pro-program parents show up with their "success stories".

In my next installment I will provide specific program examples and how to structure your advocacy to be most effective.

Which given time the same chilling effect will take root with the new HR 911 efforts. Oklahoma and their lack of a give a damn over getting sued by the federal government for not taking the deaths of youths in Foster care seriously is an excellent example.

I see what your saying Brian, I think you make some valid points and have some great ideas, I just think you are going about it entirely backwards.

I'd rather empower youth to be able to defend themselves versus empowering yet another federal and state agency that overtime will fall to the same sense of complacency.

Youth will always be square in the spotlight of some sort of program in some form. As a person working for a licensing agency I'm surprised you haven't acknowledged the shuffling and morphing of programs right in front of you. Changing demands of the consumer and changing regulation will prompt changes of what is offered.

There is too much money for it not to happen.


And None-ya..

I'm only going to be happy if HR 911 opens the door to something more useful that works to directly serve the needs of kids.

If it's another case of the Republicans saying, "lol, no" and we all go home with our own toys again like we did next time and wait for Pappa Miller to introduce another HR 911 clone I'm going to be pretty damn depressed about it all, LIKE I was last time it happened.

In my ideal vision:

HR 911 goes crashing down in flames.. but opens the door to people getting serious about fighting for a Youth Bill of Rights.

Actually with the way Brian describes it I'm semi-convinced that HR 911 does have limited short term utility  of bringing programs like Salem under some sort of scrutiny even If I'm not convinced it'll have a lasting effect. So even with HR 911 passing I hope it opens to the door for people getting serious about a Youth Bill of Rights.

So that's my ideal vision.. NO Matter what outcome we get serious about pushing a Youth Bill of Rights. I just don't have enough faith in the government to believe that HR 911 is an answer. I do have faith that children can make their own minds up about where they go to school and what sort of medical treatment they are getting.
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2011, 07:26:21 PM »
And Danny have some respect..

You'll notice I'm one of the few who hasn't commented on these Rape allegations... I'm not siding with anyone of you either, but I'm going to need way more than a he said she said on something like this.

Though I'd personally rather see something like this end up in court. Even if criminal charges can't be brought about.. Civil court is an option.

So yeah.. please take this elsewhere. Like back to PM or something.
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #67 on: October 02, 2011, 07:59:37 PM »
Quote from: "Che Gookin"
And Danny have some respect..

You'll notice I'm one of the few who hasn't commented on these Rape allegations... I'm not siding with anyone of you either, but I'm going to need way more than a he said she said on something like this.

Though I'd personally rather see something like this end up in court. Even if criminal charges can't be brought about.. Civil court is an option.

So yeah.. please take this elsewhere. Like back to PM or something.

Why would you say something like this. Is this really a topic within a survivor community we just bandy around like it is a raffle were talking about.
What!!! Is there to side about, from what he has presented you think for one fucking nano second I raped someone. Really!!!
Is this where we have reduced this site to in regards to me. "Oh I am not taking sides" on a rape.
What the fuck has happened to you people concerning me. Is your denial of your participation in the fights of a year ago that thick within your rationalizing minds.
Does this density in your minds somehow warped your mind into thinking it is OK to fuck with a women who isn't even here to defend herself and say she was raped and abused
by me. When you know this person was important to me. This game of vindictiveness is OK because it is Danny.
I got rid of my posts because it wrong to post in this thread. I like many would love to see HR 911 pass. It is a start.
Che bury the past I have no more with you to quarrel about and really never did. Verbal shrapnel was flying in all directions back then.
This shit Wayne is doing is wrong you know it and everybody else knows it, don't enable it because it is me.
I too am a survivor of 11 years.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #68 on: October 02, 2011, 08:12:10 PM »
Look retard.. Let me break this down for you very carefully..

Take your fucking pity party for Danny b somewhere else.

I don't give a rusty codfuck about you or Wayne. Both of you are incredibly dramatic people who annoy the fuck out of me. Don't be spamming up my threads with your drama.

I WILL NOT side on these allegations of rape..

Because it's not for me to decide upon who did what on an internet drama of this nature. If there is a case to be made here it can be made in court. If not.. STFU both of you.


I will note I find find a few things very interesting..

The state of Maine has no statute of limitations for abuse for under the age of 16. I'm pretty sure Wayne knows this also.

The other stuff about the situation that I find very interesting comes across as coincidental in the timing and would only serve to strengthen your position.

Which I won't do.

Because I dislike you intensely and I wish you'd fuck off.

NOW please show some respect.. stop spamming up my thread with your drama.
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #69 on: October 02, 2011, 08:13:11 PM »
As for the rest of this discussion it can be held over at TTI.com where Danny has been banned since about the 3rd day the forum opened up for business.
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Offline blombrowski

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #70 on: October 02, 2011, 08:17:12 PM »
Thanks for the feedback Che,

In the long run programs will adapt, I think you've started to see that already with a number of Aspen castoffs going after the young adult market, which is even more poorly regulated than youth programs.  It just takes money, time, and effort to make those adaptations.  So, yeah most of the residential treatment industry is either against H.R. 911 or ambivalent (with AACRC being the one notable supporter - though if you privately polled all of their members probably more than half of them would be against it), but it doesn't mean that they wouldn't eventually adapt.

Clearly most of the programs in Utah have successfully adapted to the new regulatory regime.  Has the Utah Office of Licensing actually revoked a single program's license?  Does anyone actually think that every program in Utah is squeaky clean?  So yes, I agree that there are a number of particularly atrocious places that won't be able to adapt to survive, a number of them will.
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #71 on: October 02, 2011, 08:24:29 PM »
Quote from: "blombrowski"
Thanks for the feedback Che,

In the long run programs will adapt, I think you've started to see that already with a number of Aspen castoffs going after the young adult market, which is even more poorly regulated than youth programs.  It just takes money, time, and effort to make those adaptations.  So, yeah most of the residential treatment industry is either against H.R. 911 or ambivalent (with AACRC being the one notable supporter - though if you privately polled all of their members probably more than half of them would be against it), but it doesn't mean that they wouldn't eventually adapt.

Clearly most of the programs in Utah have successfully adapted to the new regulatory regime.  Has the Utah Office of Licensing actually revoked a single program's license?  Does anyone actually think that every program in Utah is squeaky clean?  So yes, I agree that there are a number of particularly atrocious places that won't be able to adapt to survive, a number of them will.

This is the sort of thing I wish people like Miller would be told. And remember how long it took for Utah to put Whitmore out of business? Finally it came down to a Nolo contendre plea and the agreement to never work with kids in Utah again to shut that place down, IN UTAH.

They still have 49 other states to throw kids down stairs and put on a shelf.

Like I said, I think you have a good point about the bringing of some sort of oversight to places like Salem House, I just question the long term effectiveness of it. Still... I can't help but hope that in the short term some poor kid in Salem House and programs like it get something out of it.

How do you feel about a Youth Bill of Rights? I don't believe a YBoR will bring down the industry.. it'll still be there, but I do think a YBoR would serve a huge number of kids in a huge range of situations. Given the multi-faceted nature of child abuse and the plethora of situations it rears its ugly head I can't help support the idea of empowering the younger members of our society with the rights to make decisions regarding their schooling and treatment.
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Offline blombrowski

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2011, 09:56:41 PM »
I think that a Federal Youth Bill of Rights is a non-starter.  I think our best bet is to try to exert influence on Senator Harkin's office and to work with the Senate to develop an alternative to H.R. 911.  NYRA has already done some work in that area.  Part of that could be specifying what "reasonable access" actually is, to allay the fears of programs who think it really does mean private phone calls to everybody, and to allay the fears of advocates who think it could mean what it already means in a lot of states - two fifteen semi-monitored calls a week.

The other strategy is to work through the network of Protection and Advocacy agencies that are members of the National Disability Rights Network (i.e. Disability Law Center, Disability Rights Oregon, Commission of Quality of Care and Advocacy for Persons with Disabilities).  A simple and elegant change in law would be to extend the jurisdiction that they already have to "mental hygiene" facilities to the "covered programs" in H.R. 911.  As of now, they need probable cause to investigate private facilities, but I believe have broader jurisdiction to investigate mental health and developmental disability programs (Kat would know the specifics on that).

As of now, the P & A's are already a resource and have been involved in investigations of Penrith Farms in Washington, Mount Bachelor in Oregon, and the Family Foundation School in New York.  I know the offices in Kansas and North Carolina are aware of this issue, but haven't been able to establish probable cause to investigate "parent-choice" facilities in their state.

That might be the next experiment, to see if the Disability Law Center of Utah is up for taking on the Office of Licensing.
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Offline none-ya

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2011, 10:06:03 PM »
A youth bill of rights? Dream on. Hell in most states juvenilles have no legal rights (of an adult) whatsoever.Here in Fl. a juvenille doesn't even have to be marandised(sp?),or given a phone call when arrested.They won't either until there are lobbyists on capitol hill handing out checks to "save the children."
Good luck with that......
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: HR 911, uggh, again....
« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2011, 10:46:07 PM »
Quote from: "blombrowski"
I think that a Federal Youth Bill of Rights is a non-starter.  I think our best bet is to try to exert influence on Senator Harkin's office and to work with the Senate to develop an alternative to H.R. 911.  NYRA has already done some work in that area.  Part of that could be specifying what "reasonable access" actually is, to allay the fears of programs who think it really does mean private phone calls to everybody, and to allay the fears of advocates who think it could mean what it already means in a lot of states - two fifteen semi-monitored calls a week.

Tell me more about this. I like where you are going. I'd be willing to assist with this sort of project.. particularly if you include restraints into the mix somewhere.


Quote
The other strategy is to work through the network of Protection and Advocacy agencies that are members of the National Disability Rights Network (i.e. Disability Law Center, Disability Rights Oregon, Commission of Quality of Care and Advocacy for Persons with Disabilities).  A simple and elegant change in law would be to extend the jurisdiction that they already have to "mental hygiene" facilities to the "covered programs" in H.R. 911.  As of now, they need probable cause to investigate private facilities, but I believe have broader jurisdiction to investigate mental health and developmental disability programs (Kat would know the specifics on that).

True.. I loathe to create a new federal agency due to the Fed's track record with this sort of thing. TSA anyone? LBJ's Great Society much? Etc? I'd be more inclined to just see an existing agency with some experience in these matters expanded. I still don't have much hopes that it will do much over the long run though.

Quote
As of now, the P & A's are already a resource and have been involved in investigations of Penrith Farms in Washington, Mount Bachelor in Oregon, and the Family Foundation School in New York.  I know the offices in Kansas and North Carolina are aware of this issue, but haven't been able to establish probable cause to investigate "parent-choice" facilities in their state.

P&A?

Quote
That might be the next experiment, to see if the Disability Law Center of Utah is up for taking on the Office of Licensing.

Got my popcorn ready..

I disagree with you though that a YBoR is a nonstarter. It will take a very very very long time to realize something like this though.
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