What is the economy anyway ??

[starry-eyed pirate]

I've studied them a bit. I have no quarrel with their ways, but I would not attempt to impose it on others. Actually, one of the coolest things, I think, about their culture, is that they actually let the teens leave, and go into the outside world for a bit, once they reach a certain. They are allowed to abandon every Amish rule, for a time period, and then they get the opportunity to choose which ways they will embrace. It's kinda fucked up , taht if the youths choose the outside, their family disowns them, but at least they give them a choice.

Yeah, I live near the Amish and sometimes see their buggies parked up at my corner grocery, so I have come to know them somewhat, even though I don't know any personally.  I have some close friends who are organizing an intentional community in central America, and one of their guidelines is no electricity.  There is already an established Amish order down there, and my friends have been socializing and learning some of the ways of their Amish neighbors and telling me about it.

[starry-eyed pirate]

What we have now is corporate feudalism.

What we have now is whatever you want. You want to be a corporate serf, you can be. But to tell others that they have no choice is incorrect and to be honest, just a plain old downer.

I am not the type to make anybody do anything.  I'm the type who wonders aloud and asks what's goin on and hopes to gain some insight or knowledge.  I pretty much fully expect people to continue to be morons, but I do what I can anyway.   I guess I do come off a little reactionary.  It's not really a downer, once you let go of your shallow, physical and mental attachments to society, and the enrichment of the individual and family life could be well worth the sacrifice,m depending upon individual circumstances.  Unless you mean being forced to behave a certain way is a downer, then yeah I know.  Anyway, I never meant to imply that we should force everyone to comply with my ideals.  I'm not an authoritarian, just wondering what other people thought about it...you know...and hopin to learn somethin along the way.

That said, sometimes there aint no choice anyway and it's better to take control than be dictated to.

[starry-eyed pirate]

I'll have to get back later...

[Samara]

So who is jumping up to join your friends in the international, no electricity, no toilet community?

Man being man will fuck up any system. Whether primitive or corporate. Utopia becomes dystopia. There will always be a minority concentration of power. There will always be threats to power.  There will always be over-reactive nimwits.

But it is wayyyyy to easy to let "The Program Matrix Theory" become the end all-be all excuse for individual shortcomings.

[Froderik]

But it is wayyyyy to easy to let "The Program Matrix Theory" become the end all-be all excuse for individual shortcomings.

Come again?

[heretik]

The Greco-Roman world was the matrix for Western civilization.

We know how that ended.

[heretik]

Well...le's see...I don't know anyone who leads a just and moral life.  If you drive a car, and import your food and other goods, like tools and  clothes and furniture from halfway around the world you're not living justly.  In fact, if that is the case, then you are stealing the worlds health and robbing future generations of their chance to lead a good and healthy life.  I have a good friend who once told me, "Justice is not using anybody for anything, ever, period ".   In other words, justice has no ego.  The moral and the just are mostly invisible people, few and far between.  I don't know a whole lot about the Amish, though I nearly finished a book about their history once.  It seems to me though, that they do a pretty good job of living sustainable on the Earth.  They don't use electricity and they don't drive cars(although they take rides) and they grow most of their own food.  I know that they have some participation in the economy but I think it's minimal and I suggest that an Amish way of life or something akin to it, is the answer, sans religion.

What we have now is corporate feudalism.  The schools main purposes are not true education, but social conditioning.  Students learn the skills that will enable them to become part of the corporate power structure, instead of how to truly support themselves.  They learn dependence not independence.  Where are the schools that teach gardening and farming, leather work, metal smithing, hunting and fishing, and tailoring and carpentry, in addition to the 3 "R"s.  The schools homogenize the population and make the people dependent on the economy and therefore submissive and easy to control.  

I didn't mean to give the impression that I was proud of my hypocrisy, In fact I'm ashamed, but my shame doesn't prevent my honesty or my search for answers.  I think that most Americans, if they're honest with themselves, will realize that they frequently trade justice for convenience.

I think the idea that one has to be free of hypocrisy in order to point out an injustice is just silly and immature and frankly egotistical.

I am not sure why I am being accused of assuming all the liberties of immorality, hypocrisy and injustice.  You think I'm some kind of a nihilist or something ??  Far from it. My life is a work in progress and I do my best to live a conscientious life or as you put it, Samara, to live fair and just regardless of the matrix.

I love what you wrote here my man. Thanks!!!

[starry-eyed pirate]

They are called trade schools, and if you need to find them, look around. Usually though, these things are taught through an apprentice type environment. ( on the job) because there just isn t enough people who get excited about these fields and are interested in them to fill schools, and make them profitable.. - supply/demand

I'm not taliking about trade schools which are geared toward serving the current economic system.  I'm asking why don't the schools teach their students real life skills to empower the individual to true independence... ??    

...Because that doesn't make the system any money.

I think that community run schools should teach general homesteading techniques as a requirement, starting about 6th grade or so...

[starry-eyed pirate]

Dependent on the economy? You talk about the economy as is it is some big monster.

Yeah, now you're gettin it!

[starry-eyed pirate]

Economies are amoral. No matter where go. No matter what you do, there will be some form of economy.

Are they really ??  Are economies built on exploitation and slavery amoral ??  

I'm not against the concept of an economy, and I've got no problem with a decentralized, localized form of a just capitalism.  My criticism is aimed toward the present indiscriminate capitalist/corporate beast.

[starry-eyed pirate]

However, you didn t come out and say. Look man.. let's get this shit out of the way.. I am an immoral person. I am a hypocrite. I am unjust. AKA I am not good. I am a bad person. I am an unfair person.... But look, I m still right about this one thing..

Well, I didn't come right out and say that, but I wasn't trying to hide it either and even as I typed those first posts on this thread I fully expected the hypocrisy argument. It's just not a legitimate counterpoint to call someone a hypocrite. If I'm a hypocrite that's a personal issue and might reveal some character flaw but it has nothing to do with the argument being made.

[starry-eyed pirate]

Personally, I think you re probably a pretty good guy, who hold himself to ridiculous ideals.

For what it s worth, if anything. I could be wrong too, but more often then not, I m right about this shit.


Paul

Paul, I've enjoyed this little exchange very much and I appreciate your humility.  I bet you're not such a bad guy either, if even somewhat misguided.

[starry-eyed pirate]

... I suggest that an Amish way of life or something akin to it, is the answer, sans religion.

... and with some source of renewable energy, like solar.

Where will these solar panels be created?  Who will make them?  Who will supply the numerous supplies necessary to make them?  Will they last forever or will they need repairs sometimes?  Who will run the wires from these panels to everybody's homes?  Who will produce the rubber around these wires?  Who will mine the copper for these wires?  How will all these things be transported?  Who will negotiate the prices?

Oh, and where did all the technology that made these solar panels come from to begin with?  Was it from a farmer, metalsmith, or fisherman?

Paul

Well, I don't really know.  Perhaps Necessity will mother us in that regard.  My point was that if a sustainable source of energy could be secured, then I am not against the use of electricity.

[starry-eyed pirate]

So who is jumping up to join your friends in the international, no electricity, no toilet community?

Man being man will fuck up any system. Whether primitive or corporate. Utopia becomes dystopia. There will always be a minority concentration of power. There will always be threats to power.  There will always be over-reactive nimwits.

But it is wayyyyy to easy to let "The Program Matrix Theory" become the end all-be all excuse for individual shortcomings.

Well, they're still building their homestead in the jungle down there, amongst the Maya and the Amish.  They're only just getting started really.  They've had some folks come and stay and help them work the land for a while and then move on.  I've been invited but I'm not real hep on the jungle.  They are hard core though and have my respect.

Of course you are right about the limitations of any social system.  So what ??  We are constantly evolving and/or devolving...

I know what you mean about making excuses too and I think it's also wayyyyy to easy to just stick your head in the sand and go along with the program when everyone around you is motivating and trying to make the next phase.

[starry-eyed pirate]

Well...le's see...I don't know anyone who leads a just and moral life.  If you drive a car, and import your food and other goods, like tools and  clothes and furniture from halfway around the world you're not living justly.  In fact, if that is the case, then you are stealing the worlds health and robbing future generations of their chance to lead a good and healthy life.  I have a good friend who once told me, "Justice is not using anybody for anything, ever, period ".   In other words, justice has no ego.  The moral and the just are mostly invisible people, few and far between.  I don't know a whole lot about the Amish, though I nearly finished a book about their history once.  It seems to me though, that they do a pretty good job of living sustainable on the Earth.  They don't use electricity and they don't drive cars(although they take rides) and they grow most of their own food.  I know that they have some participation in the economy but I think it's minimal and I suggest that an Amish way of life or something akin to it, is the answer, sans religion.

What we have now is corporate feudalism.  The schools main purposes are not true education, but social conditioning.  Students learn the skills that will enable them to become part of the corporate power structure, instead of how to truly support themselves.  They learn dependence not independence.  Where are the schools that teach gardening and farming, leather work, metal smithing, hunting and fishing, and tailoring and carpentry, in addition to the 3 "R"s.  The schools homogenize the population and make the people dependent on the economy and therefore submissive and easy to control.  

I didn't mean to give the impression that I was proud of my hypocrisy, In fact I'm ashamed, but my shame doesn't prevent my honesty or my search for answers.  I think that most Americans, if they're honest with themselves, will realize that they frequently trade justice for convenience.

I think the idea that one has to be free of hypocrisy in order to point out an injustice is just silly and immature and frankly egotistical.

I am not sure why I am being accused of assuming all the liberties of immorality, hypocrisy and injustice.  You think I'm some kind of a nihilist or something ??  Far from it. My life is a work in progress and I do my best to live a conscientious life or as you put it, Samara, to live fair and just regardless of the matrix.

I love what you wrote here my man. Thanks!!!

My pleasure, glad you got something out of it.