Author Topic: Charter school 'Character Virus' now in Florida  (Read 7923 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ursus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8989
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Comments: "Red Wings sign multi-year deal with Amway..."
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2011, 11:42:10 AM »
K, so here are some of those great comments. :D

Unfortunately, at least one of the initial ones in the below discussion appears to have been deleted...

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

Comments left for the above article, "Red Wings sign multi-year deal with Amway as its presenting sponsor" (by Ansar Khan; September 01, 2011; MLive.com), #s 1-20:


    CottageCheesecake · September 01, 2011 at 9:34PM
      And here are some facts for you, David. Amway (or one of its subsidiaries) has been charged with illegal business practices not just in 1979, but in 1983, 1986, 1995, 1996, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 (two that year), and now in 2011. While one case is still pending (2006, oddly enough in India), you are correct that they rarely are ever found to have done anything wrong...but that is only because they choose to settle out of court in virtually every case. While doing so prevents tham from having to admit guilt, it certainly does not exonerate them. And given the frequency with which they find themselves charged with wrongdoing, there is little room for doubt as to what is actually going on.

      BTW, just because Nutrilite sells well doesn't mean that it is good for anything. Remember, 8 million people watched the season finale of Jersey Shore last year. Does that make it a good show?

      Go Pyramids!!
    David_724 · September 02, 2011 at 6:25AM
      @CottageCheeseCake - was it your intention to point out that Amway has been "charged with illegal business practices" less often than, for example, Google, Microsoft, or Wal-Mart? It's par for the course for multi-billion dollar multi-nationals to be sued. And Amway (apart from the Canadian tax fight) didn't settle the serious ones - and has won every time, in multiple countries.

      If frequency of being sued is your barometer of wrongdoing, then Amway is one of the cleanest companies of it size around.
    [/list]
    tombearse · September 01, 2011 at 12:34PM
      Why not just put on the front of the jersey during games if you're that easy a lay?
      dtroitfan · September 02, 2011 at 10:21PM
        Did you even read the article? Obviously not....because it would be against NHL rules to put it on their 'official' game sweaters.
      [/list]
      mjbauer · September 01, 2011 at 12:43PM
        Do season ticket holders get a box of detergent?
      zeeba · September 01, 2011 at 12:59PM
        I am hugely disappointed in Mike Illitch and the Red Wings. Amway represents the worst of American corporate culture. They're a bunch of con artists who do not make their money by selling products to consumers, but by selling sales kits and motivational materials to the poor saps they recruit.

        Think about it: How many people do you know who actually use Amway products? The only place I've ever seen them was in the homes of people who'd tried selling them - and I used to live in Western Michigan.
        AirCurly80 · September 01, 2011 at 2:35PM
          Agree with ya about Amway.
        CitizenXGen · September 01, 2011 at 5:31PM
          Well, I guess it’s better than Wal-Mart. Maybe The NHL will adopt a policy to allow advertisers to don the jerseys like they do in European leagues. Some of these players’ jerseys in Scandinavia look like the bodies of NASCAR’s with all the logos and insignias. It could boost revenue and exposure, in theory.
        damndog · September 01, 2011 at 11:46PM
          Right on and well said!
        Group W Bench · September 02, 2011 at 12:43PM
          Exactly what I was thinking. To take an organization such as the Red Wings and partner with the corporate king of pyramid schemes does nothing but cheapen the view myself, and I'd imagine many others, will have for Olympia now. What's next, sponsor ads that pop up across the glass when the pucks not actually in play, or Enron's Joe Louis Arena?
        [/list]
        loo65 · September 01, 2011 at 1:12PM
          Oh how I love the Wings and dislike the politics of this family. Remember the rat faced guy who tried to buy the governorship with $50 million of his own money and lost? Sadly, I predict the downfall of the mighty Wings.
          watchcaltwp · September 01, 2011 at 4:47PM
            Ah they are sponsors not players untill I see devos and his sons suit up I'm not worried about the wings downfall.
          [/list]
          drbpor · September 01, 2011 at 1:14PM
            1-800-Call -Devos !!!
            drbpor · September 01, 2011 at 1:17PM
              1-800-Call-Dick
            zoo2 · September 01, 2011 at 1:33PM
              1-800-not-even-remotely-funny-so-stop-trying
            [/list]
            Daniel · September 01, 2011 at 1:23PM
              Sickening. Of all the companies this organization could have chosen, many of them based in this great state, they choose these slime balls. May as well bring aboard walmart and BP while you're at it.
            acdawg93 · September 01, 2011 at 1:23PM
              Amway...didn't they run into some trouble a while back? And to add to zeeba's point, I had some friends of mine approach me about joining one of these "investment teams" a while back. And yes, motivational materials (which didn't explain ANYTHING) and sales kits were involved. I politely declined the offer. If it does take off, awesome and good for the people. But it sounded like a pyramid scheme to me.

              Hopefully the Wings aren't turning into the new U of Miami, lol. Anyway just a couple more weeks and it's the preseason...time flies.
            hugeadummy · September 01, 2011 at 1:24PM
              ###

              OMG! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

              Great, the Wings will be the butt of every Amway joke and WILL LOSE RESPECT from around the US.

              ###
            hugeadummy · September 01, 2011 at 1:31PM
              ###

              The perception are rightly so is the Red Wings were always thought as a "Blue Color Team" in a Blue Color area....the opposite of greed.

              Now, the Red Wings will be associated with greed, shady sales practices, and pyramid schemes...exactly what Amway is!

              Dick Devos just took a d#mp on the legacy of the Red Wings...thanks..."Dick"! (eyes rolling)

              ###
            davidgr57 · September 01, 2011 at 1:32PM
              All the Amway haters hopefully are standing behind their convictions and boycotting anything that the company or the families have an interest in. That would include the arena, hospitals, and convention center. Also, check the sponsors for any local activity as well and I hope they didn't watch the fireworks downtown. They should just move out of Michigan as well, just to be safe.


            © 2010 Michigan Live LLC.
            « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
            -------------- • -------------- • --------------

            Offline Ursus

            • Newbie
            • *
            • Posts: 8989
            • Karma: +3/-0
              • View Profile
            Comments: "Red Wings sign multi-year deal with Amway..."
            « Reply #31 on: October 03, 2011, 11:49:11 AM »
            Comments left for the above article, "Red Wings sign multi-year deal with Amway as its presenting sponsor" (by Ansar Khan; September 01, 2011; MLive.com), #s 21-38:


              zeeba · September 01, 2011 at 2:44PM
                And I hope all you Scamway lovers are standing behind your convictions by buying their laundry soap and other products. In fact, you should just become distributors, just to be safe.
              [/list]
              onebigfan · September 01, 2011 at 1:33PM
                Just some quid pro quo.

                DeVos owns the Red Wings. I am surprised this hasn't happened sooner.
                Guess who just got a spot in line when the Illitch family decides to sell their major league sports teams.
              AirCurly80 · September 01, 2011 at 2:37PM
                Amway and it's sibling, Quixstar, blow.
              AirCurly80 · September 01, 2011 at 2:42PM
                Geez, the players n their families will be subjected to Amway's oh so weird sales pitch.

                Imagine Lidstrom, on the podium receiving the 2011-12 Stanley Cup, resorts to pitching an Amway stainless steel cleaner while demonstrating how to clean up the Cup at the same time.

                Amway, just go away and partner with some team like the Penguins or better yet, the Sharks!
              drbpor · September 01, 2011 at 2:53PM
                Eric Prince,al la Blackwater Mercenary Group, is Devos brother in law too
              Frangen · September 01, 2011 at 3:05PM
                i am so disappointed in the once-mighty Red Wings. Couldn't they have found a more honorable, more
              reputable sponsor than the Great Purveyor of the Christian American Way? Even Target would have been preferable.
              Wings, until you come to your senses, you are dead to me.[/list]
                watchcaltwp · September 01, 2011 at 4:49PM
                  Like 1-800-call Sam? Or Dr. rahmani?
                [/list]
                TheFanatic · September 01, 2011 at 3:13PM
                  The Devos curse is bout to strike the Wings.
                AirCurly80 · September 01, 2011 at 3:23PM
                  The season tix holders need to stage a revolt for the Wings to disassociate from Amway or Myway.
                Jon_Book_168 · September 01, 2011 at 3:26PM
                  Jeez people, calm down. In case you were under any delusion about this, the NHL is a business. They do this to make money. The Wings are a competitive team because they can afford to pay up to the salary cap for good talent (unlike the non-traditional markets, who have trouble just meeting the salary floor). Unless you've all been living under a rock for the past few years, you may have noticed the local economy isn't too hot. That's hurt ticket sales. A major sponsorship deal helps keep money in the bank for the organization, a damn solid team on ice, and one of the few bright spots in Detroit sports. Talk like "the Wings are dead to me" just reveals bandwagon fan stupidity. That's like calling yourself a hockey fan, but refusing to watch the NHL because they partnered with NBC and you refuse to support GE. You're obviously far more a fan of your own little self-important agendas than you are of the team.
                ------
                  AirCurly80 · September 01, 2011 at 4:17PM
                    Fellow Americans, let's revolt against Amway now!
                  [/list]
                  noital11 · September 01, 2011 at 3:50PM
                    The Amway people Own the wings Farm team Grand Rapids Griffins ! first class Owners !
                  CottageCheesecake · September 01, 2011 at 4:35PM
                    Jon_Book_168 : What you say about the NHL being a business is correct. It is also true what you say about the difficult economy. However, what makes sense if that is true would be to do what every other business in MI is doing...lay off staff, lower salaries, eliminate bonuses, cut spending, and avoid risk. Many sports teams (and indeed, entire leagues) seem to have enough money to ignore this common sense approach to business, but make no mistake...decisions like this are made 100% out of someone's self-importance and 0% out of financial prudence. Just because the Red Wings have a lot of money does not in itself make this a financially responsible decision. From a purely financial standpoint it is foolish. Workable, but foolish.

                    And be honest now...as ridiculous as it is to say something like "the Wings are dead to me", it is equally ridiculous to say that this won't have a negative effect on public perception of the Red Wings as an organization. I was at one website today where people are already referring to the team as the Detroit Pyramids. While that is clearly done in jest, the underlying feelings and associations beneath that humor are very real. People associate a long history of the highest integrity, quality, and pride with the Red Wings. Attaching a company with the exact opposite associations is going to be seen as demeaning to people, no matter what the reasons. It will be seen by fans of hockey (not just of the Wings), as cheapening, or detracting from that history and those associations.

                    Go Pyramids!![/list]
                    jimcarravall · September 01, 2011 at 8:12PM
                      It'd be much more honest if they would put logos the suits for the congressmen they've already bought like they do with NASCAR drivers.
                    silver_rush · September 01, 2011 at 8:27PM
                      are you guys really crying over this..? really? get a life
                    manistee49660 · September 02, 2011 at 12:27AM
                      Not thrilled with Amway being associated with the Wings.
                    petecasholi · September 02, 2011 at 1:15AM
                      This reminds of that Seinfeld episode where George's boss is brainwashed by that cult and ends up cleaning carpets.
                    msutaylorjay · September 02, 2011 at 1:19AM
                      So the Wings will come to the Columbus Blue Jackets and say "Hey Jackets, we got these great products that we want to share with you, but get profit as well! Now, all you have to do is find two more NHL teams and get them involve, and if they get more teams involved, you will get even more profits. What do you say?"


                    © 2010 Michigan Live LLC.
                    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
                    -------------- • -------------- • --------------

                    Offline Ursus

                    • Newbie
                    • *
                    • Posts: 8989
                    • Karma: +3/-0
                      • View Profile
                    Amway describes tangible, intangible benefits of ... sponsor
                    « Reply #32 on: October 05, 2011, 12:23:59 AM »
                    Okay, here's the second article, the one that Xelebes provided a link for earlier:

                    -------------- • -------------- • --------------

                    Amway describes tangible, intangible benefits of Detroit Red Wings sponsorship

                    Published: Friday, September 02, 2011, 7:54 AM
                    Updated: Friday, September 02, 2011, 3:18 PM
                    By Chris Knape | The Grand Rapids Press


                    DETROIT — Amway has sharpened its connection with the Detroit Red Wings, announcing it has agreed to become the first-ever "presenting sponsor" for the National Hockey League franchise.

                    The multiyear agreement with the Ada Township-based company builds upon last year's initial partnership, which featured the Amway logo on all Red Wings practice jerseys and pucks.

                    "We put our toe in the water the first year, and now we're all in," said Steve Lieberman, managing director for Amway North America. "They're a great organization. They're quality people, easy to deal with. We’ve had a lot of additional things we've worked with that weren't in our original deal."

                    The news follows the recent announcement that the Red Wings will play this year's intrasquad Red-White game Sept. 27 in Grand Rapids at Van Andel Arena. They haven't played that game here since the early 2000s.

                    Throughout the season, Amway's name will appear on the rinkside boards at Joe Louis Arena as well as elsewhere in the facility. Amway's logo also will appear on Red Wings tickets and other items.

                    Part of the deal also calls for Amway's Nutrilite brand to be named the official vitamin and nutritional supplement of the Red Wings.

                    "They're an iconic brand that we felt very much tied with our heritage," Lieberman said. "We're also both Michigan companies, privately owned."

                    The Red Wings are owned by the family of Little Caesar's Pizza founder Mike Ilitch.

                    "We're elated to have Amway as the first presenting sponsor in Red Wings history," Tom Wilson, president of Ilitch's Olympia Entertainment, said. "The unique similarities between our two companies make this a natural alliance that will enhance all areas of our operations, including player nutrition, fan experience and our dedication to the community."

                    Amway has dramatically stepped up its marketing efforts in recent years, securing endorsement deals with high-profile athletes and serving as presenting sponsor for Major League Soccer's San Jose Earthquakes and such events as Tina Turner's 2008 concert tour.

                    The company also has its name on the Amway Arena, home of the NBA's Orlando Magic, a team owned by the family of Amway co-founder Rich DeVos.

                    The Red Wings deal marks Amway's biggest sponsorship involving a mainline professional sports team in North America.

                    Some fans commenting Thursday on the initial report of the deal on Mlive.com were sharply critical of the Red Wings for partnering with Amway, which is a frequent lightning rod for critics. Others were supportive or pragmatic.

                    Bill Chipps, senior editor at Chicago-based IEG, a company that consults on sponsorship deals, said he expects any backlash over the deal to be short-lived, even though Amway can be controversial.

                    "I think the public has grown to accept and acknowledge the role of sponsorship," Chipps said. "Most people recognize that sponsorship dollars are vital to a team's existence if not a team's on-field performance."

                    As for the cost of a presenting sponsorship in the NHL, he expects the annual cost to Amway is likely in the high six figures, if not the low seven-figure range.

                    Amway and the Red Wings did not disclose financial terms of the deal.

                    Lieberman said Amway looks at the tangible benefits it gets from such deals — such as tickets for employees and distributors and consumer exposure to its brand — as well as intangibles — such as the goodwill that can be built from being associated with a quality organization.

                    "There's never a straight dollars-and-cents calculation, where you send X dollars you get Y benefits," Lieberman said.

                    Presenting sponsorships are common and even more overt in European and other international leagues. The National Basketball League's Detroit Pistons in June renewed a presenting sponsorship with PNC Bank. The practice also has been used in the National Football League and Major League Baseball, though the extent of the relationships vary from deal to deal.

                    Chipps expects the practice to spread.

                    "I think most sports organizations definitely want the right to sell presenting status or sell sponsorships to jerseys," Chipps said. "There are holdouts. But the trend is definitely gaining steam. At the same time, it still has to be done right."

                    — MLive.com's Ansar Khan contributed to this story.

                    E-mail Chris Knape: [email protected] and follow him on Twitter at twitter.com/Kcorner



                    Copyright 2011 MLive.com.
                    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
                    -------------- • -------------- • --------------

                    Offline Ursus

                    • Newbie
                    • *
                    • Posts: 8989
                    • Karma: +3/-0
                      • View Profile
                    Comments: "Amway describes tangible, intangible benefits..."
                    « Reply #33 on: October 08, 2011, 02:48:02 PM »
                    Comments left for the above article, "Amway describes tangible, intangible benefits of Detroit Red Wings sponsorship" (by Chris Knape;September 02, 2011; Grand Rapids Press/MLive.com):


                    chungasrevenge · September 02, 2011 at 8:22AM
                      this should generate enough revenues to pay off tha $56million fine.
                    legrep · September 02, 2011 at 8:56AM
                      I hope the Wings are happy with whatever paltry amount of money they received from our homegrown ponzi masters because one of the "intangibles", the goodwill of being associated with a quality organization, isn't going to be reciprocated.

                      Along with most everyone else, I've managed to live thirty-five years in W. Michigan without using an Amway product and hope to go at least thirty-five more.
                      redwing fan · September 02, 2011 at 9:16AM
                        Doen't mean a thing to me, I don't care, unless they change the name to the Amway RedWings. They are soon to announce that their first line will now be called the Nutrilite Line and the mvp for the season will win the new Vitamin of the Year Award. A new booth will be set up to recruit new distributers and will be manned by Mike Ilitch during the first period. Other than that no one will even notice the sponsorship by Amway,
                      tombearse · September 02, 2011 at 10:34AM
                        Low seven figures does not actually sound like the paltry amount you suggest. I'd say both parties put out for this transaction.
                      dtroitfan · September 02, 2011 at 10:25PM
                        Who cares? Really? If Amway wants to spend millions to show and sell their products at Joe Louis Arena and the Red Wings accept their offer....how is that any of our business? Anything to help generate revenue in this day and age is not a bad thing.
                      [/list]
                      Gordon Fall · September 02, 2011 at 9:18AM
                        Check out this article, that breaks EVERYTHING down as to why this is so terrible.

                      http://hockeyindependent.com/blog/gordon/38121/[/list]
                      yodaman · September 02, 2011 at 9:48AM
                        This is a black eye for the Red Wing organization. Scamway? Really? How about Aspartame? Devos is a jerk. The Wings will be karmically affected by this "marriage."
                      umcrazy · September 02, 2011 at 1:03PM
                        Great move Wings, you went from ambulance chaser to ponzi scheme.
                        Thought mr. I had more class than that!
                      powayslugger · September 02, 2011 at 3:32PM
                        Huh, what?

                        Does Amway make Geritol... Lol... just kidding... honest!
                      michabama · September 02, 2011 at 9:54PM
                        umcrazy seems as though you are just that. Get over it. ponzi scheme? Tell me you have not taken advantage of any of the perks that GR has been able to provide because of your alledged ponzi scheme. Like it or not GR would be Flint without what this company has provided. If you were lucky enough to personally benifit from it you would sing a different song
                        hankscorpio · September 03, 2011 at 11:47AM
                          I;m sure Bernie Madoff made charitable donations with his ill-gotten money as well. Doesn't chance the fact that he ripped off billions of dollars from folks. Amway is a rip-off company. And the Devos' are fundie zealots who "donate" to put a happy face on their political goals.
                        [/list]
                        hankscorpio · September 03, 2011 at 11:44AM
                          Amway is not a ponzi scheme, but more a pyramid scheme. The "Scamway" derision is well earned none-the-less. This is a terrible business decision by the Red Wings - sullies the hell out of their brand.
                        Dr.B · September 03, 2011 at 2:17PM
                          With ticket sales within a couple percent of capacity the last couple years, a nearly free lease for the old barn they play in, and a fresh infusion of a few million from the new TV deal, how could they possibly feel getting a million to pimp for the Dark Lord of Chaos is worth it? Tom Wilson got this greenlighted somehow. They could make about the same money buying out Hudler's contract for chrissakes.
                        cowboycoffee · September 03, 2011 at 3:43PM
                          will there be a stadium-wide prayer before games, now? will they take #1 out of retirement to put it on new jesus-themed jerseys? how about pews instead of seats!
                        tbeek65 · September 04, 2011 at 12:27PM
                          pozi right(red) WINGs want take over everything in Michigan. See the NEW multi colored wheel all it needs now is a wing thanks mike gone give Tom new deal like smokey & DD ?
                        phil336 · September 04, 2011 at 11:23PM
                          GO WINGS!
                        drbpor · September 05, 2011 at 1:54PM
                          1-800-call-DICK!! Eric Prince & Blackwater will now take over security at JLA !
                        shooter72 · September 05, 2011 at 10:08PM
                          This is a very disconcerting decision.
                          Hockey's classiest franchise succumbing to corporate greed and brainwashing.
                          I am disappointed in Mr. Ilitch...certainly he doesn't need the money that badly, does he?


                        Copyright 2011 MLive.com.
                        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
                        -------------- • -------------- • --------------

                        Offline Xelebes

                        • Newbie
                        • *
                        • Posts: 348
                        • Karma: +0/-0
                          • View Profile
                        Re: Charter school 'Character Virus' now in Florida
                        « Reply #34 on: October 08, 2011, 04:08:19 PM »
                        Following the link in the comment there. . .

                        How could you? How could you? The Red Wings and Amway.

                        Quote
                        They sold out. Not we sold out. They sold out.

                        Writers have always harped on how sports fans tend to refer to teams in the first person plural tense, complaining that the fans aren’t really part of the team. Today, the Red Wings proved those miserable old bastards right.

                        This year, there will be no Detroit Red Wings. There will, however, be the Detroit Red Wings presented by Amway.

                        The Red Wings have signed a contract with Amway, the Ada, Mich. based pyramid scheme, to let this company become the Red Wings’ “presenting sponsor”. That includes having Amway plastered all over every possible surface, right down to (in the words of the official team press release) “the Amway logo seen almost as prominently as the Winged Wheel in all team advertising, branding and marketing materials.”

                        Truly disgusting. In every sense of the word, this is a shot at the Red Wings’ fanbase. If you’re reading this, and care about the Red Wings, you should be outraged. If you don’t care about the Red Wings but still root for another team, you too should be outraged. Or if you merely care about morality in business, and where to draw the proverbial line, you must care about this story.

                        Allowing Amway, a pyramid scheme that preys upon the downtrodden and desperate, to graft themselves onto the Detroit Red Wings is astoundingly irresponsible.

                        ——

                        The Detroit Red Wings are a Detroit institution. I don’t need to explain that much to you. The amount of goodwill generated by the Red Wings’ brand and logo is immeasurable. The Winged Wheel is one of the most recognizable icons of Detroit, right alongside the automobile and Motown music.

                        Amway has long been thought of as a scam. For decades, the company has operated by having low-level suppliers attempt to sell products at a high mark-up, then having other suppliers supply them, and so on, and so forth. That is a pyramid scheme. Furthermore, the Amway culture typically relies upon these bottom-level sellers consuming hundreds of dollars worth of motivational materials, designed to get them even more caught up in the cult of Amway. Needless to say, since the Amway scheme has generated so much criticism over the years, the company tried to rebrand itself with the name “Quixtar” in 1999, ultimately reverting back to the original Amway name in 2007.

                        The Red Wings referred to this as a partnership. This is not a partnership. This is one truly great entity siding with a truly despicable entity, and in the process, bringing one side down to the other’s level.

                        In short, here are the basic facts about this whole thing, from the Red Wings themselves. After each blockquote, my thoughts on the afore-mentioned quote.

                            The new agreement will involve substantial in-arena branding initiatives, as well as an eclectic mix of innovative and interactive components designed to enhance the overall fan experience at Joe Louis Arena and in the community. Some key components of the announcement today were: that the Wings Red & White preseason scrimmage will return to Van Andel Arena in Grand Rapids on Sept. 29; and Nutrilite, Amway’s sports nutrition products, will be the official vitamin and supplement of the Red Wings.

                        None of this enhances the overall fan experience at the Joe, unless enhancing actually means smearing a ton of Amway logos everywhere. In-arena branding isn’t an enhancement.

                            “The 50 year history and global success of Amway along with the elite status of the Red Wings organization are a considerable source of pride for Michiganders,” says Steve Lieberman, Vice President and Managing Director for Amway North America.

                        To put it bluntly, no. Amway, you are not a considerable source of pride for Michiganders. You are actually a pretty big source of shame. The world knows Michigan for cars, timber, music, furniture, and thanks to you guys in Ada, cult-like pyramid schemes.

                        The Red Wings, though, are a considerable source of pride for Michiganders.

                        In the vein of Mr. Lieberman’s quote, I’d like to congratulate myself and Justin Verlander, for our combined 20 wins pitching for the Tigers this season, and we’d like to thank you all for the support. The two of us couldn’t have done it without you.

                        . . .
                        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »