General Interest > Tacitus' Realm
In support of Obama -
Anne Bonney:
--- Quote from: "BuzzKill" ---I'm very serious.
Find me a tape of a crowd of people (or even a hand full) in tears at the site of Dubya, (or any conservative leader) speaking of thrills coursing along their body parts when he speaks, singing worshipful songs of praise to him, using Messianic titles to reference him and lifting up prayer to him, and I might think you have a point.
--- End quote ---
Well that was easy. I bring you the Bush Youth, unedited version and one of the scariest things I have ever seen....
http://http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2c7_1173547096
Fun Fact: the phrase "Under God" in the Pledge wasn't even added until 1954, under pressure from The Knights of Columbus (see below). It was not there in the original version, so no one is trying to "remove God" from the Pledge. Merely trying to restore it to as it was written and intended, by a dirty socialist by the way (see below).
Now, the admittedly slightly audio edited but (I maintain a more accurate depiction) here...
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbkjw__Phz4
That was a snippet. There was MUCH more.
--- Quote from: "BuzzKill" ---Colter is not one of my favorite commentators. I don't have the low opinion you do, but she is not a favorite. I have never before read anything she wrote. I wanted to read this one because of the history she was said to have included and how well research it was said to be. All true enough; She did make a number of very valid and interesting points. I simply don't enjoy her snarky sniping. I think it is more degrading to the overall message than in any way clever or witty. There is another book of similar theme I liked much better. It has a more scholarly tone with enough true wit to make it an enjoyable read: Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning by Jonah Goldberg
--- End quote ---
ugghhh.........Jonah Goldberg. You're right, he's not the attention whore that Coulter is, but he's just as off base in his assertions. And playing on the same fears.
http://http://oldtimeislands.org/pledge/pledge.htm
Emphasis and red comments, mine.
The Pledge of Allegiance
A Short History
by Dr. John W. Baer
Copyright 1992 by Dr. John W. Baer
Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).
Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex.
The Pledge was published in the September 8th issue of The Youth's Companion, the leading family magazine and the Reader's Digest of its day. Its owner and editor, Daniel Ford, had hired Francis in 1891 as his assistant when Francis was pressured into leaving his baptist church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. As a member of his congregation, Ford had enjoyed Francis's sermons. Ford later founded the liberal and often controversial Ford Hall Forum, located in downtown Boston.
In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'
His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. (the horror!!) [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]
Dr. Mortimer Adler, American philosopher and last living founder of the Great Books program at Saint John's College, has analyzed these ideas in his book, The Six Great Ideas. He argues that the three great ideas of the American political tradition are 'equality, liberty and justice for all.' 'Justice' mediates between the often conflicting goals of 'liberty' and 'equality.'
In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, 'my Flag,' to 'the Flag of the United States of America.' Bellamy disliked this change, but his protest was ignored.
In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer. (A no-no according to the Constitution)
Bellamy's granddaughter said he also would have resented this second change. He had been pressured into leaving his church in 1891 because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.
What follows is Bellamy's own account of some of the thoughts that went through his mind in August, 1892, as he picked the words of his Pledge:
"It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...
The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?
Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful (or in current terms too much "intellectialism", which really confounds me. Why is intelligence seen as something to be feared and derided now? Could it be that the more education and intelligence one gains, the more they see that the Emperor has no clothes?), too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all...
If the Pledge's historical pattern repeats, its words will be modified during this decade. Below are two possible changes.
Some prolife advocates recite the following slightly revised Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.'
A few liberals recite a slightly revised version of Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'
BuzzKill:
Anne - this is serious now - there is a huge and very important difference in praying For the president, and praying TO him!
Christians are instructed to pray for their national leaders (and their enemies too BTW) but to offer prayer to none but God in Jesus' name. Now, clearly those praying to Obama and using Messianic titles to refer to him are not Christian - but this is not the point. The point is, there are people who respond to him in a spiritual way - they cry and swoon at his public appearances; they sing anthems to him and pray to him; they not only fail to see any fault in him they become very agitated and even outraged if anyone else does . . . All this is very dangerous. And you can not find an example of conservative voters responding like this to even their most respected persons.
I have no idea why you have the pledge of aligence thing posted here - if it relates to the topic you'll need to school me on how so. I will say tho, that nothing in the US Constitution says there can be no public prayer. Clearly the prohibition against the establishment of a church state has nothing to do with prayer in public places or government offices as until very resent history (my own life time) prayer in school was common and congress had prayer before every session. In our early history school children were taught to read using the Holy Bible. What the Constitution forbids is establishing a state church - Congress can not pass a law declaring the United States a Catholic or a Protestant nation. It was never intended to strike God from the public discourse or reverence to Him from public life, but rather in recognition that Congress should never force a national religion on the states.
Froderik:
--- Quote from: "BuzzKill" ---Anne - this is serious now - there is a huge and very important difference in praying For the president, and praying TO him!
--- End quote ---
:notworthy: :tup:
Froderik:
--- Quote from: "BuzzKill" ---Christians are instructed to pray for their national leaders (and their enemies too BTW) but to offer prayer to none but God in Jesus' name. Now, clearly those praying to Obama and using Messianic titles to refer to him are not Christian - but this is not the point. The point is, there are people who respond to him in a spiritual way - they cry and swoon at his public appearances; they sing anthems to him and pray to him; they not only fail to see any fault in him they become very agitated and even outraged if anyone else does . . .
--- End quote ---
::puke::
Froderik:
--- Quote ---I have no idea why you have the pledge of aligence thing posted here - if it relates to the topic you'll need to school me on how so. I will say tho, that nothing in the US Constitution says there can be no public prayer. Clearly the prohibition against the establishment of a church state has nothing to do with prayer in public places or government offices as until very resent history (my own life time) prayer in school was common and congress had prayer before every session. In our early history school children were taught to read using the Holy Bible. What the Constitution forbids is establishing a state church - Congress can not pass a law declaring the United States a Catholic or a Protestant nation. It was never intended to strike God from the public discourse or reverence to Him from public life, but rather in recognition that Congress should never force a national religion on the states.
--- End quote ---
I didn't want to say the pledge when I was in public school (for what I saw as political reasons). They didn't throw me out of class for not saying it, but said I had to stand up. I kind of thought that was bullshit, but whatever...at least they didn't try and force me to say it.
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