FDA warning on SSRIs

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry, I meant 15 years when she would be 22.

[Anonymous]

When the disease is debilitating enough, the benefits outweigh the risks.

Especially since the disease itself is known to cause progressive brain damage.

[Anonymous]

On 2003-11-20 18:01:00, Anonymous wrote:

"What will this girl's brain be like in 5 years, when she is 12?  10 years when she is 22? Doesn't it bother you that there are no long term studies on the use of these drugs on children?  Your daughter is NOT a guinea pig!!!



 :eek: "

Her *doctor* is licensed to practice medicine.

Are you?  Didn't think so.

[Anonymous]

Oh, for more information, the mental illness I have, and her paternal grandmother has, is the mental illness that is statistically most likely to end in suicide if left untreated.  The hard numbers statistical risks are...high.

The programs lie and tell you if you didn't do the program you'd be dead.

I've got hard numbers for *my* risk of death without the right treatment.

And my daughter's illness is more likely than not the initial stages of the same thing.

If there were long term studies being run right now, she'd be a very solid candidate for being on the list.  Because the risks of *not* medicating are horrible and the *certain* damage of not medicating is serious on a significant life-damaging level.

If your kid has cancer, you don't deny chemo just because it has risks.  If your kid had frequent recurring tonsillitis, you don't not have the surgery just because there's a statistical risk of dying from the anesthesia.

When you have a serious illness, you have to make serious cost-benefit decisions, and leaving the illness untreated would be the most cruel and neglectful decision of all.

[Deborah]

http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/Prozac-Backlash.htm

I spent whole weekend days in the bowels of the Harvard Medical School Library poring through esoteric psychiatric journals. I was amazed to find reports estimating thousands of cases of four different side effects involving loss of motor control. The first is tics like Maura's. The second is neurologically driven agitation ranging from mild leg tapping to severe panic. The third is muscle spasms, which, when they are mild, can cause tension in the neck, shoulder, or jaw, but can lock body parts in bizarre positions when severe. The fourth is drug-induced parkinsonism, with symptoms similar to those seen in Parkinson's disease. In this chapter, I refer to this cluster of four, closely related syndromes ? tics, agitation, muscle spasms, and parkinsonism ? as the neurological side effects of the drugs. I found reports that they were occurring with all of the serotonin boosters: Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, and Luvox. These neurological side effects represent abnormalities in the involuntary motor system, which is a large group of nerves found deep in the older part of the brain. Normally, these nerves influence automatic functions like eye-blinking, facial expression, and posture. When the brain attempts to compensate for the effects of a drug, it can lead to disorganized, chaotic activity in the involuntary motor system and loss of motor control ? an example of Prozac backlash. In my experience, patients with any one of these side effects are at increased risk to develop the others, including tics.

Many patients looking for information on these side effects have to turn to chat rooms on the Internet, support groups in cyberspace for people on the drugs, because so little official information is available. In this Internet correspondence, people post notices or questions to which others can then respond. A number of patients have brought me representative printouts from chat rooms with names like alt.support.depression, alt.support.anxiety-panic, and alt.support.ocd at Web sites with names like http://www.dejanews.com. Reading the Internet correspondence, I was struck by the similarities between what people are reporting on the Web and what I have seen in my office.

Patients should not have to turn to the Internet in hopes of finding information that ought to be readily available from their doctors.

Unfortunately, the history of delayed reaction to these side effects with major tranquilizers appears to be repeating itself with serotonin boosters. In spite of reports estimating thousands of cases of neurological side effects, the reaction is again slow, marked by hesitancy to inform the public. The spontaneous reports by clinicians are considered to represent a small fraction of the total number of cases, which only more systematic monitoring would expose.
***********************

http://www.jeffersonhospital.org/news/s ... durki=7423

Jefferson Scientists Show Several Serotonin-Boosting Drugs Cause Changes in Some Brain Cells
Some cells shriveled, while others took on corkscrew shapes

Researchers from Jefferson Medical College in Philadelphia have found changes in brain cells in rats treated with large doses of several anti-depressant or anti-obesity drugs. In some cases, the cells shriveled or took on abnormal corkscrew shapes. While the clinical significance of the findings isn?t known, the scientists say, they may raise new concerns about the prolonged use of such commonly prescribed drugs as fluoxetine (Prozac) and sertraline (Zoloft). The work also highlights the need for similar studies on other classes of drugs that act on the central nervous system.

[Deborah]

Many of the previous posts originated from this link which has a great stash of information:
http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/side-effects.htm

More on Utah and Antidepressants

http://www.drugawareness.org/Archives/M ... xtgen.html

Excerpts:
There are presently a million children ages 6 - 18 on these drugs.

Perhaps because of Utah's high use of these medications for several years, we could stand as a test laboratory for the FDA and spare others the agony of serving as guinea pigs. Since the release of these drugs on the market Utah has held the title of the "Prozac Capital" of the nation. Along with that we have had drastic increases in: suicide, unwed pregnancies, domestic violence, manic-depression, MS, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, hypoglycemia, diabetes, bankruptcies, and our divorce rate is now higher than the national average. Patients report all of these as side effects of these drugs and there is overwhelming scientific evidence spanning over three decades to support those reports. Our teen suicide rate coincides perfectly with our use of mind altering prescription medications - Utah's teen suicide rate is three times the national average while our use of these drugs is also three times the national average.

Just last week in Salt Lake I interviewed a school teacher who attempted to hire students to kill her principal while on Prozac. Then a 14 year old girl, now off Paxil, through tears confessed to her mother that, although she did not know why, while on the drug she attempted to hire someone to kill her mother. Larramie Huntzinger, under the influence of SSRIs, blacked out and ran his car into three young girls killing two. Last summer a 13 year old boy on Prozac put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger. The same month another 13 year old boy on Zoloft only six days hung himself. An 18 year old model student and LDS seminary president on Paxil for four days shocked his loved ones by shooting himself. And a 16 year old on Prozac 2 weeks hung himself. How many more have done the same over the last ten years? How long will it take us to count the dead and dying children in Utah alone?

[Deborah]

When the disease is debilitating enough, the benefits outweigh the risks. ***********

Sounds much like the justification for abusing kids in BM facilities, particularly wilderness programs... afterall, they are just different branches of the same fraudulent industry.
*************

Especially since the disease itself is known to cause progressive brain damage.*************

Are you refering to "depression" causing progressive brain damage? Any links to the research findings for that?

[Anonymous]

On 2003-11-20 20:46:00, Deborah wrote:

"When the disease is debilitating enough, the benefits outweigh the risks. ***********



Sounds much like the justification for abusing kids in BM facilities, particularly wilderness programs... afterall, they are just different branches of the same fraudulent industry.

*************



Especially since the disease itself is known to cause progressive brain damage.*************



Are you refering to "depression" causing progressive brain damage? Any links to the research findings for that?"

No.  Bipolar I and Bipolar II cause brain damage.  Before they had Lithium to treat them with, Bipolars used to die in about their fifties of acute mania in mental institutions (yes, acute mania can, in and of itself, be fatal---it's the end of a progressive disease if you don't at some point intervene and treat it).

People rarely die of acute mania any more because before they get that sick they either voluntarily take the medication because their lives are a shambles without it, or they get involuntarily committed and put on medication in whatever institution.

The difference between BM/WT programs and psychiatry is that one group is run by licensed, regulated, qualified MD's and one isn't.  It's about the difference between taking big spoonfuls of Lydia Pinkham's Patent Medicine for your laundry list of miscellaneous crap and taking precise doses of insulin for your diabetes.

If it "sounds like the justifications" etc., it's because the BM/WT quacks ape the specialized vocabulary of legitimate psychology and psychiatry to try to make their scams more believable to the gullible.

Same thing happens in investment cons---the con-man apes the language and appearance of legitimate investments to lend verisimilitude to his con.

You abuse a kid in a BM/WT program, *if* you get caught you move to another state, change the name of your program, and set up all over again.  You abuse a kid as a licensed psychiatrist at *best* you get sued for malpractice, at worst (for you) you get your license to practice medicine yanked.

MD's may not be super terrific great about policing themselves, but if you're a serious quack you *can* lose your license and be out of the medicine business.

Repeat after me: "licensed to practice medicine."

It makes all the difference in the world.

[Anonymous]

On 2003-11-20 20:41:00, Deborah wrote:

"Many of the previous posts originated from this link which has a great stash of information:

http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/side-effects.htm



More on Utah and Antidepressants



http://www.drugawareness.org/Archives/M ... xtgen.html



Excerpts:

There are presently a million children ages 6 - 18 on these drugs.



Perhaps because of Utah's high use of these medications for several years, we could stand as a test laboratory for the FDA and spare others the agony of serving as guinea pigs. Since the release of these drugs on the market Utah has held the title of the "Prozac Capital" of the nation. Along with that we have had drastic increases in: suicide, unwed pregnancies, domestic violence, manic-depression, MS, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, hypoglycemia, diabetes, bankruptcies, and our divorce rate is now higher than the national average. Patients report all of these as side effects of these drugs and there is overwhelming scientific evidence spanning over three decades to support those reports. Our teen suicide rate coincides perfectly with our use of mind altering prescription medications - Utah's teen suicide rate is three times the national average while our use of these drugs is also three times the national average.



Just last week in Salt Lake I interviewed a school teacher who attempted to hire students to kill her principal while on Prozac. Then a 14 year old girl, now off Paxil, through tears confessed to her mother that, although she did not know why, while on the drug she attempted to hire someone to kill her mother. Larramie Huntzinger, under the influence of SSRIs, blacked out and ran his car into three young girls killing two. Last summer a 13 year old boy on Prozac put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger. The same month another 13 year old boy on Zoloft only six days hung himself. An 18 year old model student and LDS seminary president on Paxil for four days shocked his loved ones by shooting himself. And a 16 year old on Prozac 2 weeks hung himself. How many more have done the same over the last ten years? How long will it take us to count the dead and dying children in Utah alone?



"

SSRI's are not candy, and they're not aspirin.

If you have bipolar I or bipolar II disorder and are misdiagnosed as having major depression, your doctor (and family) may not be aware if your dose of antidepressants is too high, or you're on the wrong one for you, and it sends you into a manic phase.

Bipolars in a manic phase can become psychotic and violent.

It's not so much that the SSRI just randomly causes people to freak out as it is that psychiatrists have problems recognizing the difference between major depression and one of the bipolar disorders for several reasons---1) The bipolar disorders are rare, and major depression is common; 2) Patients tend not to recognize symptoms of mania as *symptoms* and tend not to report them to their doctors.  It's common for bipolars to go several years misdiagnosed as major depressives before being (finally) correctly diagnosed.

It's not actually that the SSRI makes the patient manic and/or psychotic as it is that, in some patients, the SSRI activates symptoms of a disease the psychiatrist was not aware he was looking at.

The solution to this is not to quit prescribing SSRI's, it's to more closely monitor patients starting on SSRI's for symptoms of mania.

If the patient is sent manic by SSRI's, the solution may not be to discontinue the SSRI--if you can't find one that doesn't send the patient manic, the medically appropriate solution may be to put the patient on the SSRI *and* a mood stabilizer like Lithium.  No mania, no violence.  The reason for the SSRI is you don't want the patient depressed *either*.

Suicide is a little different issue---that *can* be caused by a major depressive who intended to suicide but didn't have the energy suddenly having enough energy to act.  Or it can be caused by someone suddenly and unpredictably stopping his medication.

Psychiatric medications are not candy.

BUT for people with major mental illnesses, psychiatric medications are *necessary*.  The trick is the right medicines, in the right doses, and the patient having the right diagnosis.

But, if you don't know psychiatry/psychology from a hole in the ground, it can *look like* "Gee, these bad and dangerous medicines are making people crazy!!!"

Wrong.

These people were crazy to start with.  If you give a crazy person the wrong medications for his/her illness because you've misdiagnosed that illness, Bad Things Happen.  Surprise, surprise.

These strong medications with associated risks and side effects are dangerous unless the patient is properly diagnosed and his/her condition is properly monitored by a *competent*, qualified, licensed psychiatrist.

It is *necessary* for patients with a major mental illness to be seen regularly by, and correctly diagnosed by, and treated with the right medications in the right doses by *competent*, qualified, licensed psychiatrists.

Oh, and, by the way, there is no way in hell bipolar disorders can be caused by taking SSRI's, or aspirin, or candy, or not brushing your teeth twice a day, or not saying your prayers like a good little boy/girl, or whatever.

The Bipolar Disorders Are Genetic.  Period.

There is more Bipolar Disorder in the statistics than there used to be for two reasons:

1) The Bipolar Disorders are being recognized and correctly diagnosed more often now that psychiatry understands this disorder much better than it did, say, 20 years ago.

2) Bipolar Disorders Are Genetic.  More bipolars are being helped by psychiatric medication to live normal lives, to NOT suicide, and to have children.  Duh.  If more of us live to have kids, you're going to have more bipolar kids next generation.  (I happen to think it's worth it.)

[Antigen]

You guys are not really arguing from mutually exclusive positions.

Deborah's showing some pretty damned compelling evidence that there might be some politicking going on between the FDA and the drug industry lobbyists. Will wonders never cease!

Anon's arguing that, for some conditions, the benefit is worth the risks.

The other anon argued that it's not the kids who are crazy, they're normal. It's the world that's fucked up and so we feed them Prozac to make them feel like it's normal.

All of the above, in my opinion, are true.

A good head and good heart are always a formidable combination. But when you add to that a literate tongue or pen, then you have something very special

--Nelson Mandela

[Anonymous]

Mom Anon - What other options, short of giving a 7 year old powerful, mind-altering drugs, are available to treat bi-polar in pediatric patients?

Second, has anyone checked out the http://www.conductdisorders.com website?  How many of these parents are drugging their kids as the answer to controlling unwanted behavior at home, in school or the community?  Far too many, IMHO, thanks in large part to special interest groups like C.H.A.D.D.  Public Enemy #1.

[Anonymous]

Of course you are not going to believe that mental illness is caused from repressed horrible emotions.  Of course you don't believe we operate mostly from unconscious motives. That we really don't know who we are.  The father of Psychiatry "Freud" believed this, but its just to simple.  80% of people have a neurosis. We don't know as humans how to be conscious,guiding, use common sense, intuition. We don't know what we are doing to our children. Maybe if just one person can get anything out of this and say hmmmmm,  but no, the majority as they vilify Freud won't.

[Anonymous]

On 2003-11-21 05:45:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Of course you are not going to believe that mental illness is caused from repressed horrible emotions.  Of course you don't believe we operate mostly from unconscious motives. That we really don't know who we are.  The father of Psychiatry "Freud" believed this, but its just to simple.  80% of people have a neurosis. We don't know as humans how to be conscious,guiding, use common sense, intuition. We don't know what we are doing to our children. Maybe if just one person can get anything out of this and say hmmmmm,  but no, the majority as they vilify Freud won't. "

Freud's model did a reasonably good job, for *initial* work in the field, of describing the maladies of his sample set----middle-aged Victorian housewives.

There are a whole hell of a lot of people in this world who are *not* middle-aged Victorian housewives.

I notice you *didn't* address general paresis.

You're like a program parent or a creationist---sold on faith, and impervious to evidence.

(If I don't appear all that moved by "evidence" it's because I've spent *years* studying the human mind, formally, from experts, and the "evidence" in this case just isn't all that good---or, more particularly, the person providing it doesn't have a whole lot of understanding of human brain chemistry and the things that can and do go wrong with it to provide any context for the observations of the people she's quoting.)

[Anonymous]

On 2003-11-20 22:29:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Mom Anon - What other options, short of giving a 7 year old powerful, mind-altering drugs, are available to treat bi-polar in pediatric patients?



Second, has anyone checked out the http://www.conductdisorders.com website?  How many of these parents are drugging their kids as the answer to controlling unwanted behavior at home, in school or the community?  Far too many, IMHO, thanks in large part to special interest groups like C.H.A.D.D.  Public Enemy #1.

"

The *only* other option, short of drugs, is leaving her to suffer the symptoms---which are painful, causing adverse life consequences, will not go away, and likely to cause physical, medical damage.

For you people lucky enough to have *normal* brain chemistry, "mind altering" drugs are a "bad thing".

For people with major mental illnesses, the particular combination of "mind altering" drugs that alter a specific patient's brain chemistry to what everyone else has are a *good* thing.

You just don't get it.  For people with fucked up brain chemistry, from genetics, *life* is a mind altering drug---and not at all a safe one.

There *is no* effective alternate treatment for this particular problem.  It's just a question of this drug or that drug.  The risks are less, and the benefits greatest, with this one as opposed to that one, so you use this one.

We're not talking about "my parents are splitting up and I *feel bad*" or "my doggy died, and I need *counseling*".  We're talking about a serious problem where something is physically, medically wrong.  Would you expect a kid with appendicitis to explore "alternatives" to "dangerous" surgery?!  Of course not.

If you have a *behavioral* problem you have "alternatives."  If you have a serious *medical* problem, you treat it, or you don't, and the available treatments that work *all* have their dangers---in this case, the available treatments that work are *all* powerful mind-altering drugs---because mind-altering is exactly the medical result needed.  The only "alternative" is *which one you pick*---and they *all* have their own individual down sides, you just pick the one with the fewest problems for *this patient*.

The alternative is to sit in denial and neglect my child by failing to provide medical treatment, OR medication to treat the problem.  Which problem, as I said, is *painful*, seriously *life-damaging*, and *will* cause further medical problems of other varieties if left untreated.

Geez, you folks bitch at the programs for not getting a kid to the doctor for a broken arm, and then you're upset that someone else *won't* neglect a kid.

Your problem is you're absolutely convinced that you know better than licensed medical doctors, and never mind that *you* never went to and passed med school and went through and passed a medical internship.

And you can't see that you're being as bad as the people at Straight that wouldn't let a kid that had just had surgery have pain killers after because that would be *drugs* and *Drugs Baaaaaad*.

I have a degree in this crap.  *I'm* not an expert (that takes a PhD and license, IMO), but I sure as hell know enough to know my daughter's licensed medical doctor (approved of by my very good insurance company, btw) is a good, competent doctor who has properly diagnosed my daughter, is prescribing the best treatment option for her considering all aspects of her problem *including her age*, and is very carefully watching (as am I) for any of the signs that would indicate an adverse reaction to the particular medication, or an incorrect dosage.

The other thing you may not know is that there is a *very good* indicator of which patients will have adverse reactions or good results from which drugs, but it only works in *families* with mental illnesses---and that is that a medication that works well (few side effects) for a same sex close relative, works well (few side effects) for the patient.  My family has *ample* data on multiple psychiatric drugs in close same sex relatives---including the one my daughter is taking---one of her grandmothers takes it.

Not all parents are program parents.  Not all parents make ill-informed medical decisions for their children.

Usually, that the child's care provider is a *licensed* professional, in the right field, in private practice, approved of by the insurance company, is a pretty positive sign.

[Anonymous]

Ginger---if any of that sounded like it was directed at you, it wasn't.  You are showing your usual very good sense, IMO.