The abuse you brought on us,the shame is yours.

[Antigen]

On 2003-10-22 16:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Why are you so angry at me, Dee? I am just stating how elan is today.  I wasn't around in the 70s and im sure it was different.  I know Elan saved my life.  I would not be the successful, strong, independant woman I am today if it wasn't for Marty, Clare, and the other staff and directors who gave me the opportunity to be successful.  I have nothing to do with the staff and directors.  Personally I disagreed with some things they said and did, but thats life.  I feel sorry for you that your experience in Elan was so negative, and hope that one day you can move past it."

I can't speak for Dee. But I can tell you why I used to practically lose my grip whenever I came accross people saying about Straight just about exactly what you're saying about Elan.

For one thing, there was a time when I was saying the same things. Abuse? What abuse? I never saw any kind of abuse. Everyone who got humiliated or hurt in some way brought it on themselves. And, of course, there's this spoken or unspoken rule of confidentiality taken to extremes that prevents people who want to remain in good standing from discussing any of it among themselves or, especially, with outlanders in any but glowing terms.

Imagine you used to belong to the the Manson Family, maybe against your will, maybe not. Years later, the memory of what this guy did to the inside of your mind and the outside of your body and other people in front of you still freak you the fuck out at times. Now, imagine if, instead of serving natural life w/o parole, Charles Manson were mayor of some small town somewhere. Still with access to little kids, getting paid big bucks and smiling for the cameras like a hero.

Now do you understand why some people might find it infuriating and frightening that these particular people have a following of young kids?

Girl, Elan didn't save your life. You have no way of knowing what would have happened without Elan because it didn't happen. No one knows or can say. I can tell you that an awful lot of people subjected to essentially the same behavior modification methods have come out of it a bit twitchy.

A democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

A republic is where the sheep get to pick which wolves vote on what to have for dinner.

But in a constitutional republic, voting on dinner is strictly
forbidden.

--A Patriot

[Dee Verry]

LMAO Why are you in here?telling us how wonderful Elan made your life.you sick fuckin bitch.your not even a resident or a graduate.



                NICE TRY MARTYYYYYY your so sweat and will you honor me,PLEASE I AM SOOOOOOOOO GOOD MARTYYYYYY TAKE ME FOR A WALK

  what the FUCK IS THIS SHIT?

[Paul St. John]

On 2003-10-22 19:47:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Im sorry if you misunderstood me.  When I said I disagreed with some of the things at Elan, I meant petty things.  Like demotions that I disagreed with or something to that nature.  As a whole I agree with the program.  I didn't have it easy there at all.  I was in the ring, I recieved countless general meetings, and more gi time than I wish to remember.  But all of those learning experiences were because of my own actions.  

Paul, you never went to Elan.  Elan does not save lives, you are right.  Elan offers people the tools to save their own lives.  I know I'd be either dead or in a psych ward right now had I not been sent to Elan.  Instead I am a successful college student who knows how to handle her feelings and move on from things.  I feel I owe my life to the staff and directors of Elan."

I just don't buy it, and I am also wonderring if you are the same person who keeps posting to Dee as me.  .. just wonderring is all..


But again...

On 2003-10-22 19:47:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Im sorry if you misunderstood me.

Are you sorry that I said " Fuck You! "

  When I said I disagreed with some of the things at Elan, I meant petty things.  Like demotions that I disagreed with or something to that nature.

You would have to be pretty petty to disagree with that, and have no problem with everything else that went on there
 As a whole I agree with the program.  I didn't have it easy there at all.  I was in the ring, I recieved countless general meetings, and more gi time than I wish to remember.  But all of those learning experiences were because of my own actions.  

Whoever you are.. don't you know by now that I am smarter then that.  

For any intelligent person, who is reading this check it...

You jump off a house, maybe you will get hurt as a result of your actions.  

The use of initiatory force on the other hand is unnatural and immoral, and we are not responsible for haqrm caused to us, because someone else sees it as fit  



Paul, you never went to Elan.

Yeah.. You guys bring that up a lot .. don't ya?

  Elan does not save lives, you are right.

even though I have never been there? lol


  Elan offers people the tools to save their own lives.


That's not the story I hear.. LMAO!


  I know I'd be either dead or in a psych ward right now had I not been sent to Elan.

Well, my gathering of facts has led me to the conclusion that there are a lot of people who are dead, or in a psych ward because they went to Elan.

 Instead I am a successful college student who knows how to handle her feelings and move on from things.

I think you are a bullshit artist.. I think you are staff.. I think you started the threads about me.. I think that you are fucking with Dee...  I think that you pretend to be me, and post to her, in an attempt to control her, and perhaps burn her out, before she gets all her truth out, and I think that when all else failed, you are now trying to play on our emotions.. because you know that we are actually decent people, unlike yourself.

 I feel I owe my life to the staff and directors of Elan."

and the Academy Award goes to....


Paul



P.S.  I am sorry to hear that you had to spend so much time in the ring, but I was under the impression that Elan didn't the ring too much anymore.. Didn't you say that you were of the recent, new and improved Elan?  

[Paul St. John]

On 2003-10-22 23:00:00, Paul St. John wrote:

"

On 2003-10-22 19:47:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Im sorry if you misunderstood me.  When I said I disagreed with some of the things at Elan, I meant petty things.  Like demotions that I disagreed with or something to that nature.  As a whole I agree with the program.  I didn't have it easy there at all.  I was in the ring, I recieved countless general meetings, and more gi time than I wish to remember.  But all of those learning experiences were because of my own actions.  


Paul, you never went to Elan.  Elan does not save lives, you are right.  Elan offers people the tools to save their own lives.  I know I'd be either dead or in a psych ward right now had I not been sent to Elan.  Instead I am a successful college student who knows how to handle her feelings and move on from things.  I feel I owe my life to the staff and directors of Elan."

I just don't buy it, and I am also wonderring if you are the same person who keeps posting to Dee as me.  .. just wonderring is all..





But again...

On 2003-10-22 19:47:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Im sorry if you misunderstood me.



Are you sorry that I said " Fuck You! "



  When I said I disagreed with some of the things at Elan, I meant petty things.  Like demotions that I disagreed with or something to that nature.



You would have to be pretty petty to disagree with that, and have no problem with everything else that went on there



 As a whole I agree with the program.  I didn't have it easy there at all.  I was in the ring, I recieved countless general meetings, and more gi time than I wish to remember.  But all of those learning experiences were because of my own actions.  



Whoever you are.. don't you know by now that I am smarter then that.  



For any intelligent person, who is reading this check it...



You jump off a house, maybe you will get hurt as a result of your actions.  



The use of initiatory force on the other hand is unnatural and immoral, and we are not responsible for haqrm caused to us, because someone else sees it as fit  






Paul, you never went to Elan.



Yeah.. You guys bring that up a lot .. don't ya?



  Elan does not save lives, you are right.



even though I have never been there? lol





  Elan offers people the tools to save their own lives.





That's not the story I hear.. LMAO!





  I know I'd be either dead or in a psych ward right now had I not been sent to Elan.



Well, my gathering of facts has led me to the conclusion that there are a lot of people who are dead, or in a psych ward because they went to Elan.



 Instead I am a successful college student who knows how to handle her feelings and move on from things.



I think you are a bullshit artist.. I think you are staff.. I think you started the threads about me.. I think that you are fucking with Dee...  I think that you pretend to be me, and post to her, in an attempt to control her, and perhaps burn her out, before she gets all her truth out, and I think that when all else failed, you are now trying to play on our emotions.. because you know that we are actually decent people, unlike yourself.



 I feel I owe my life to the staff and directors of Elan."



and the Academy Award goes to....





Paul







P.S.  I am sorry to hear that you had to spend so much time in the ring, but I was under the impression that Elan didn't the ring too much anymore.. Didn't you say that you were of the recent, new and improved Elan?  

"

[Anonymous]

hmm a recent graduate,, female,, went in the ring,, did they give u a chest protector?/

[Paul St. John]

Hmmm


I was wrong  :roll:


They do still use the ring, huh? LOL


Paul

[Anonymous]

They don't still use the ring.  That stopped about three years ago.

[Anonymous]

You are doing great Dee. Keep exposing all your feelings about what Elan did to you. It will set you free. I am proud of you.

Paul

[Antigen]

On 2003-10-23 04:05:00, Anonymous wrote:

"They don't still use the ring.  That stopped about three years ago."

You're welcome. :wink:

If only there were evil people somewhere, insidiously committing evil
deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060007761/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Alexandr Solzhenitsyn

[Dee Verry]

Please shut the fuck up!Elan saved my life and I ow so much,I felt like that once,too. thats why your out!can only  graduate once your brianwashed and thats what you are brainwashed.god help me I am a nice person but,I can't stand you,you make me so ill to my stomack.

[Paul St. John]

On 2003-10-23 07:33:00, Anonymous wrote:

"You are doing great Dee. Keep exposing all your feelings about what Elan did to you. It will set you free. I am proud of you.



Paul"

Once again...

This asshole posting is not me.

Paul St. John

[Anonymous]

Dee, I am not brain washed. It is you who are.  Ginger, Matt Hoffman, Paul St. John and all these other people are manipulating you.  From what I understand you had a very positive experience in Elan after you switched houses.  Remeber the positive stuff.  If I chose remembered every degrading thing said to me in a General Meeting and not all the insight given to me, than I am only cheating myself.  I understand you have your issues with Marty to work out, and Dave is dead so you'll never get to resolve those with him.  But please remember all the positive things you got out of the program, and address your problems with the people who you need to, rather than just venting on this site.

[Paul St. John]

On 2003-10-23 15:45:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Dee, I am not brain washed. It is you who are.  Ginger, Matt Hoffman, Paul St. John and all these other people are manipulating you.  From what I understand you had a very positive experience in Elan after you switched houses.  Remeber the positive stuff.  If I chose remembered every degrading thing said to me in a General Meeting and not all the insight given to me, than I am only cheating myself.  I understand you have your issues with Marty to work out, and Dave is dead so you'll never get to resolve those with him.  But please remember all the positive things you got out of the program, and address your problems with the people who you need to, rather than just venting on this site."

What?  Do you monitor this site?  How do you always manage to post right after me?

" and at EAXACTLY MIDNIGHT, GOSH DARNIT"  :roll:  :wink:  :lol:


Now, let's take a look at what you said.. Dee, can no doubt take of herself, but I'd like a shot at you as well...

On 2003-10-23 15:45:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Dee, I am not brain washed. It is you who are.  Ginger, Matt Hoffman, Paul St. John and all these other people are manipulating you.






  From what I understand you had a very positive experience in Elan after you switched houses.

Look, I wasn't there, but my guess is that the experience was only positive when compared to the hell hole of a house, that she was in before it, and not against what one might consider an ideal life.  I am dying to know who you are


 Remeber the positive stuff.  If I chose remembered every degrading thing said to me in a General Meeting and not all the insight given to me, than I am only cheating myself.

There is of course value in taking the good that you can from any situation.  That's the rational thing to do... I haven t noticed anyone on this site speaking againts that.  I am certainly all for it...

But still the degradation was a part of the reality of the program and will be acknowledged by any honest person .. You may choose to ignore it, but it is still there.  You are attempting to instruct another human being to deny that she was degraded, or just treat it as not a big deal.  Apparently, being degraded is not a big deal to you.  To me that is disgusting. To the all the most valuable people in this world, that is also disgusting.


 I understand you have your issues with Marty to work out, and Dave is dead so you'll never get to resolve those with him.  But please remember all the positive things you got out of the program, and address your problems with the people who you need to, rather than just venting on this site."

I think that there is some value in what you said here, but people can vent wherever they want, and also, as I understand from my conversations with Dee, she finds happiness in the idea that she is letting the truth out.  These places still exist, and she is saying what they did to her.. not to the people who did it, but to everyone who is interested.  

Paul St. John

[Antigen]

Anon, straight up, serious question. How do you know you're not brainwashed? What does brainwashing mean when you say it? When I say it, I mean Dr. Robert J. Lifton's Criteria for Thought Reform, which you can read here
http://ncafe.com/northkorea/LiftonThoug ... iteria.htm

You should know that all of us have been through programs that use a lot of these basic techniques. For me, Matt, Dee and John, it's been years. Matt and Dee knew eachother years ago from Elan, but until a few days ago, never spoke in the mean time. I don't think any of us has ever met John except through these forums. And I've only met Matt once over breakfast with my kid and another adult at a busy conference. Aside from that I've never met Matt or Dee, only spoken on the phone a few times.

There is no way that any of us have enough control over eachothers lives or environments to carry it off if any of us wanted to. You, otoh, just got out of a long stay in an environment that's intentionally perfect for it.

Like I said. It takes on to know one.

If only there were evil people somewhere, insidiously committing evil
deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060007761/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Alexandr Solzhenitsyn

[Anonymous]

unfortunately,, it looks like concept still works.As with a/a,, if you buy the whole package deep enuf, to yourself and your peers,it appears to work.no matter what you wanna call it,brain washed is the word when talkin about elan. they learned there lessons well from the nazis,frued,skinner,, maybe even a  dash of charlie.buut ,, with no after care to keep you submerged,it aint gonna last.,,