Ridge Creek "School" - Serious Safety Issues/ORS Violation

[Whooter]

Let me ask you a question, Heretik.  We hear stories of programs serving rotten food and locking kids in isolation boxes for weeks at a time.  We read about kids being isolated from their families without contact for months at a time and brainwashed.  We have read about kids not getting hardly any education at all, etc.  These were issues which defined these programs in many people minds.  I have shown (and kids who wrote here on fornits) that these conditions have changed.  Kids are receiving great meals, Vegetarian, Vegan etc., competing in sports against other highschools going white water rafting, going on dates into town, attending dances.  There are programs where kids are not locked in boxes or cages today and can write to their families and have unmonitored phone calls.  Kids are excelling at their academics and moving onto college after they graduate.

If it was okay to talk about how bad these conditions were then why are not the improvements recognized and applauded?  Why do people like yourself see this information as a threat or non issue?  If you are all about the kids( like you claim you are) why not be happy about these improvements and increases in quality of life for them?  From my perspective the amount of effort many here put in to discrediting and ignoring the facts shows that you really are not interested in anything except your own stories and the why programs were in the past.    Why does every discussion have to be about the negative aspects of the industry?  Why not a more healthy honest discussion about the facts (good and bad)?


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[Whooter]

Let me ask you a question, Heretik.  We hear stories of programs serving rotten food and locking kids in isolation boxes for weeks at a time.  We read about kids being isolated from their families without contact for months at a time and brainwashed.  We have read about kids not getting hardly any education at all, etc.  These were issues which defined these programs in many people minds.  I have shown (and kids who wrote here on fornits) that these conditions have changed.  Kids are receiving great meals, Vegetarian, Vegan etc., competing in sports against other highschools going white water rafting, going on dates into town, attending dances.  There are programs where kids are not locked in boxes or cages today and can write to their families and have unmonitored phone calls.  Kids are excelling at their academics and moving onto college after they graduate.

If it was okay to talk about how bad these conditions were then why are not the improvements recognized and applauded?  Why do people like yourself see this information as a threat or non issue?  If you are all about the kids( like you claim you are) why not be happy about these improvements and increases in quality of life for them?  From my perspective the amount of effort many here put in to discrediting and ignoring the facts shows that you really are not interested in anything except your own stories and the way programs were in the past.    Why does every discussion have to be about the negative aspects of the industry?  Why not a more healthy honest discussion about the facts (good and bad)?


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[RobertBruce]

I said the majority of issues seem to be paperwork, training issues.

So you still equate sexual assault, retaliation, and self mutilation as paperwork issues. Again, pretty sick, but pretty par for the course when it comes to the mentality of a programmie such as yourself. You people believe anything and everything should just be swept under the rug. Does that lead to a safe environment?

I never claimed that programs should not document everything. I think it is one of the strengths of the industry, especially the ones under regulation.

Then why did programmies like Buchi fight tooth and nail against even allowing agencies like the ORS onto the property? He operated for years without any oversite or regulation. Lied and claimed everything was above board until we forced regulation on him much to his chagrin. Since regulation leads to a safer program, why do so many programmies still fight against it?

I wish public schools detailed every event like program have to.

Can you cite some source showing what public schools are and are not required to report to state agencies? In the meantime public schools are kept in check by school boards, DOE's, PTO's, the media, and the students themselves. Programs seek to operate within a bubble while they self govern. Whooter, which do you believe of those two options is safer?

I was saying that the knee jerk reaction for most places would be to not report every event unless they had too or unless it would lead to helping the child or the profit margin.

Helping the profit margin is all these places ever care about. They don't report these types of events to state agencies or to parents for that exact reason. What parent is going to pay tens of thousands of dollars to leave their child in a place where their kid gets tea bagged at night?

[Whooter]

So you still equate sexual assault, retaliation, and self mutilation as paperwork issues.

Lets try it again.  Self mutilation, sexual assault, retaliation are not paperwork issues.  The failure to document them properly are paperwork issues.  If a child attacks another child and the program does not document the incident properly then this is a paperwork issue.  Many of the citings of the DHS has to do with Paper work issues.



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[Whooter]

Then why did programmies like Buchi fight tooth and nail against even allowing agencies like the ORS onto the property? He operated for years without any oversite or regulation. Lied and claimed everything was above board until we forced regulation on him much to his chagrin. Since regulation leads to a safer program, why do so many programmies still fight against it?

I would guess that many programs feel they can monitor the children themselves and don’t feel they need for regulation and inspections.  Most of us feel we are doing a good job raising our kids and would not want DHS visiting us all the time and telling us how we can discipline our children and how to report and document each event.  Its a pain in the ass.  How many of us would go get a driver’s license if we were not forced to get one.  If we didnt have one it would not mean we were poor drivers.



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[RobertBruce]

Lets try it again. Self mutilation, sexual assault, retaliation are not paperwork issues. The failure to document them properly are paperwork issues. If a child attacks another child and the program does not document the incident properly then this is a paperwork issue. Many of the citings of the DHS has to do with Paper work issues.

So now you're saying that they aren't safety issues. Still pretty sick Whooter. Since they aren't reporting these numerous incidents, there's way of of knowing what corrective action was taken, and what steps are being taken to ensure that the same problems don't occur again. What reasons would they have for not reporting the incidents? Again you are talking about something that a child in public school could be expelled for.

[Whooter]

Lets try it again. Self mutilation, sexual assault, retaliation are not paperwork issues. The failure to document them properly are paperwork issues. If a child attacks another child and the program does not document the incident properly then this is a paperwork issue. Many of the citings of the DHS has to do with Paper work issues.

So now you're saying that they aren't safety issues.

I read through the above post several times and did not see where I said anything about safety issues.  I said Many of the citings of the DHS has to do with Paper work issues.  I can see why you get so angry all the time.  You tend to read things that are not there,Bruce, that is why I am taking this a little piece at a time so that you understand what I am saying.



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[RobertBruce]

I would guess that many programs feel they can monitor the children themselves and don’t feel they need for regulation and inspections.

Oversite and regulation create a safer environment. Why would any programmie oppose this unless he simply didn't care?

Most of us feel we are doing a good job raising our kids and would not want DHS visiting us all the time and telling us how we can discipline our children and how to report and document each event. Its a pain in the ass.

The state assumes that a parent loves their child and will do what's right for them. It's only when a problem occurs they have to step in. A program owner is not raising his own kids, he's been paid by someone else to do it for them. Because he's running a business he's subject to a more watchful eye, and rightfully so.

How many of us would go get a driver’s license if we were not forced to get one. If we didnt have one it would not mean we were poor drivers.

And if we weren't required to get a drivers license it would mean anyone would be free to operate a car, making the roads that much more dangerous. Regulation and oversite lead to control and safety. Something I would imagine most parents would be in support of when it comes to their children.

So then again, if we know that oversite leads to a safer program, why do programmies like Buchi oppose it unless they simply don't care?

[RobertBruce]

I read through the above post several times and did not see where I said anything about safety issues. I said Many of the citings of the DHS has to do with Paper work issues.

The fact that you didn't say it is the problem. These are safety issues, and you're attempting to downplay by claiming they are merely paperwork issues. No different then your earlier attempts to define sexual assault as flirting. Again, typical programmie mindset.

I can see why you get so angry all the time.

Over what? I'm winning the argument while you're fumbling for excuses.

You tend to read things that are not there,Bruce, that is why I am taking this a little piece at a time so that you understand what I am saying.

Oh is that why you need to pick and choose what you can and cannot respond to? I just assumed it was because you don't have an answer to give. I'll look forward to you going back and responding to the remainder of my earlier questions and comments.

[Whooter]

I agree with oversight  (and sometimes am on the fence regarding it), it can lead to a safer industry,  just like forcing people to get a drivers’ license leads to safer roads.  But the license and tests dont necessarily make me a better driver so if they didn’t force me to take the test then I would probably opt out of it.  If the DHS wanted to inspect my home and interview my kids on a monthly basis I would probably fight against it.  Overall it may make kids safer in the state but I feel I do a good job and therefore would fight against it and not document every time my kid fell down the stairs or I had to spank him etc.

So I do see the value in oversight but I also see why schools and programs fight against it.  They don’t feel the DHS is making the kids safer in their particular school.

[Whooter]

The fact that you didn't say it is the problem. These are safety issues, and you're attempting to downplay by claiming they are merely paperwork issues.

So we can agree that I stated that many are paperwork issues.  I wanted to establish this first.  Now also there are safety issues, too.  These have been documented by the DHS and the school has time to impliment corrective action.  This is how the inspection process works.  There are also Training issues  which were found.



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[RobertBruce]

I agree with oversight  (and sometimes am on the fence regarding it), it can lead to a safer industry,  just like forcing people to get a drivers’ license leads to safer roads.  But the license and tests dont necessarily make me a better driver so if they didn’t force me to take the test then I would probably opt out of it.  If the DHS wanted to inspect my home and interview my kids on a monthly basis I would probably fight against it.  Overall it may make kids safer in the state but I feel I do a good job and therefore would fight against it and not document every time my kid fell down the stairs or I had to spank him etc.

So I do see the value in oversight but I also see why schools and programs fight against it.  They don’t feel the DHS is making the kids safer in their particular school.

So you feel that routine inspections and additional paperwork is not worth adding safety for a child.

You used these same bad analogies several years ago, they were no better then they are now. If you own a program you aren't raising your kids, you're being paid to raise someone elses, and thus are under closer scrutiny. Just as the health department isn't going to come into your kitchen and fine you for something they might fine a business owner for. A private home where a parent raises his own child is not the same as a program owner taking on respondsibility for other peoples children.

Are you having trouble understanding that?

Whether a programmie sees it a certain way or not does nothing to change the fact that oversite does make things safer, and even if routine inspections are a pain in the ass, the fact remains the same. If safety is a priority for these guys, why wouldnt they just grin and bear it? Why fight against it?

[Whooter]

I agree with oversight  (and sometimes am on the fence regarding it), it can lead to a safer industry,  just like forcing people to get a drivers’ license leads to safer roads.  But the license and tests dont necessarily make me a better driver so if they didn’t force me to take the test then I would probably opt out of it.  If the DHS wanted to inspect my home and interview my kids on a monthly basis I would probably fight against it.  Overall it may make kids safer in the state but I feel I do a good job and therefore would fight against it and not document every time my kid fell down the stairs or I had to spank him etc.

So I do see the value in oversight but I also see why schools and programs fight against it.  They don’t feel the DHS is making the kids safer in their particular school.

So you feel that routine inspections and additional paperwork is not worth adding safety for a child.

The inspections and paperwork will ultimately add to the safety of the kids from an industry perspective.  But from an individual viewpoint many times people feel that they are making the right decisions for the children and dont need the help of outside agencies to tell them what to do or micro manage them.  I feel IRS audits are greatly needed in the US and although I run a tight ship and value my accounting team I dont see the need to have them hovering around.  I dont call them if I think I violated a law I rely on my professional team, just like people dont call DHS on themselves if they have a problem.  They are all valued industries as a whole but most people dont want them around.



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[RobertBruce]

So we can agree that I stated that many are paperwork issues. I wanted to establish this first. Now also there are safety issues, too. These have been documented by the DHS and the school has time to impliment corrective action. This is how the inspection process works. There are also Training issues which were found.

The only thing we can agree on is that programmies like yourself aren't concerned about safety for kids whenever it affects the bottom line. You claim the program is implementing corrective action, yet how many times has this happened just at RC alone? You can't dismiss them all. As much as it burns Buchi up people from the state are going to keep coming, and we're going to keep posting these safety violations.

[RobertBruce]

The inspections and paperwork will ultimately add to the safety of the kids from an industry perspective. But from an individual viewpoint many times people feel that they are making the right decisions for the children and dont need the help of outside agencies to tell them what to do or micro manage them. I feel IRS audits are greatly needed in the US and although I run a tight ship and value my accounting team I dont see the need to have them hovering around. I dont call them if I think I violated a law I rely on my professional team, just like people dont call DHS on themselves if they have a problem. They are all valued industries as a whole but most people dont want them around.

The IRS has no reason to believe you when you claim you don't need an audit. The fact is if you didn't fear an audit you might not be so worried about making sure you were doing things correctly. So the same way the fear of the IRS insures that you will balance your books correctly, fear of the ORS and other similar state agencies keeps programmies from abusing kids and violating their rights.

In both instances enough violations means the respective agencies will eventually put you out of business.