Current Events

[Froderik]

:cheers:

[dragonfly]

[Whooter]

Dear Whooter,

Please keep in mind I am responding to your words and not you personally, I do not wish to insult anyone here.

You spoke about the notion that since some programs involve extracirricular activities, these programs are not engaged in brainwashing.

Firstly, I would be happy to speak to you directly if at any point you'd like to.

Secondly,  it's rather sickening for many of us to read any sort of defense of these programs.  When someone inflicts pain with the intention of causing "growth" it is sort of like playing God.  

Thirdly,  I recently watched the PBS series on the Jonestown Massacre.

Those folks were hysterical with joy the evening before Jim Jones began shooting the journalists and then ordered everyone to commit suicide.

These people of all ages were outwardly happy.

Jim ordered Parents to kill their children first.

Whooter, this is Documented.

You can watch it yourself, the cameras were rolling, you can hear the children crying from the cyanide pain in their stomachs.

My point is that this comunity was taking care of the elderly, raising happy kids, growing food, singing, playing games etc.

The Journalists were almost dupped.

You may have not been brainwashed, I hope for your sake that is true.

For those of us that struggle with the challenge of moving on,  your remarks could be interpreted as insensitive.

I am sorry that I appear insensitive.   You are not the first one to point out that I was insensitive with my posts and communicating my thoughts.   The presence of sports was only one aspect that would hamper an environment conducive to Brainwashing.  If you add in communication with the outside world via phone calls and family vists,  intense academics and preparation for the PSATS or SATs, the coming and going of new hires of staff,  weekly therapy sessions with an independent therapist who communicates with the childs therapist at home etc. makes it very unlikely that the child could undergo brainwashing.




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[Ursus]

The presence of sports was only one aspect that would hamper an environment conducive to Brainwashing.  If you add in communication with the outside world via phone calls and family vists,  intense academics and preparation for the PSATS or SATs, the coming and going of new hires of staff,  weekly therapy sessions with an independent therapist who communicates with the childs therapist at home etc. makes it very unlikely that the child could undergo brainwashing.

Pbbbffftttt. Please. Sports is just another means of indoctrination for the program; it's all part of the therapeutic milieu. Just 'cuz you play another team once a week or so ... does not in any significant way cut into that. It's not like you are gonna have any meaningful amount of time for socializing with them, eh? Besides, they're the other team. You're trying to beat them, right?

In fact, sports is a particularly important tool of indoctrination at Hyde. Your team is yet another encounter group which can eviscerate you publically on a moments notice for whatever whim may be.

Are you really putting out 125% effort every day? Do you play as a team member (concern for others), or are you trying to be a star, at the expense of others (excessive self interest)? What do you do for practice on your own time (commitment)? Are you keeping your weight within reasonable limits? Are you trying to carve out some slack time by complaining about minor injuries (integrity)? Did you pick the appropriate sport to challenge yourself where you need to be challenged, as opposed to what you'd like to play? Do you have a good attitude, or a BAD ATTITUDE?

As to all that other stuff you listed, Whooter, depending on the institution, some of it occurs right at the program. Not all that much occurs "outside," in the real world.

One has to keep in mind that, while you're in a program, that particular program is your psychological home base. It becomes the seat of your self concept, your means of defining your self. At least it does for enough kids so that the appearance of such is the status quo. Any excursions out, be they actual or just via phone calls, are always experienced in that context. You don't necessarily need physical walls when you can be convinced to erect them within your own mind.

[dragonfly]

[Whooter]

The presence of sports was only one aspect that would hamper an environment conducive to Brainwashing.  If you add in communication with the outside world via phone calls and family vists,  intense academics and preparation for the PSATS or SATs, the coming and going of new hires of staff,  weekly therapy sessions with an independent therapist who communicates with the childs therapist at home etc. makes it very unlikely that the child could undergo brainwashing.

Pbbbffftttt. Please. Sports is just another means of indoctrination for the program; it's all part of the therapeutic milieu. Just 'cuz you play another team once a week or so ... does not in any significant way cut into that. It's not like you are gonna have any meaningful amount of time for socializing with them, eh? Besides, they're the other team. You're trying to beat them, right?

In fact, sports is a particularly important tool of indoctrination at Hyde. Your team is yet another encounter group which can eviscerate you publically on a moments notice for whatever whim may be.

Are you really putting out 125% effort every day? Do you play as a team member (concern for others), or are you trying to be a star, at the expense of others (excessive self interest)? What do you do for practice on your own time (commitment)? Are you keeping your weight within reasonable limits? Are you trying to carve out some slack time by complaining about minor injuries (integrity)? Did you pick the appropriate sport to challenge yourself where you need to be challenged, as opposed to what you'd like to play? Do you have a good attitude, or a BAD ATTITUDE?

As to all that other stuff you listed, Whooter, depending on the institution, some of it occurs right at the program. Not all that much occurs "outside," in the real world.

One has to keep in mind that, while you're in a program, that particular program is your psychological home base. It becomes the seat of your self concept, your means of defining your self. At least it does for enough kids so that the appearance of such is the status quo. Any excursions out, be they actual or just via phone calls, are always experienced in that context. You don't necessarily need physical walls when you can be convinced to erect them within your own mind.

I am not insinuating that the presence of sports negates the possibility of the presence of brain washing.  It is but one facet of many that points towards the improbability that thought reform could thrive in a program.  Kids who are participating in team sports, preparing for SATs, seeing an independent counselor, traveling to visit colleges, going to dances or dates into town, white water rafting etc.  If you look at all of these events it pretty much eliminates any chance of creating an environment conducive to supporting the necessary elements needed for brainwashing.  It may create a nauseating overzealous team spirit but not much more.



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[heretik]

The presence of sports was only one aspect that would hamper an environment conducive to Brainwashing.  If you add in communication with the outside world via phone calls and family vists,  intense academics and preparation for the PSATS or SATs, the coming and going of new hires of staff,  weekly therapy sessions with an independent therapist who communicates with the childs therapist at home etc. makes it very unlikely that the child could undergo brainwashing.

Pbbbffftttt. Please. Sports is just another means of indoctrination for the program; it's all part of the therapeutic milieu. Just 'cuz you play another team once a week or so ... does not in any significant way cut into that. It's not like you are gonna have any meaningful amount of time for socializing with them, eh? Besides, they're the other team. You're trying to beat them, right?

In fact, sports is a particularly important tool of indoctrination at Hyde. Your team is yet another encounter group which can eviscerate you publically on a moments notice for whatever whim may be.

Are you really putting out 125% effort every day? Do you play as a team member (concern for others), or are you trying to be a star, at the expense of others (excessive self interest)? What do you do for practice on your own time (commitment)? Are you keeping your weight within reasonable limits? Are you trying to carve out some slack time by complaining about minor injuries (integrity)? Did you pick the appropriate sport to challenge yourself where you need to be challenged, as opposed to what you'd like to play? Do you have a good attitude, or a BAD ATTITUDE?

As to all that other stuff you listed, Whooter, depending on the institution, some of it occurs right at the program. Not all that much occurs "outside," in the real world.

One has to keep in mind that, while you're in a program, that particular program is your psychological home base. It becomes the seat of your self concept, your means of defining your self. At least it does for enough kids so that the appearance of such is the status quo. Any excursions out, be they actual or just via phone calls, are always experienced in that context. You don't necessarily need physical walls when you can be convinced to erect them within your own mind.

I am not insinuating that the presence of sports negates the possibility of the presence of brain washing.  It is but one facet of many that points towards the improbability that thought reform could thrive in a program.  Kids who are participating in team sports, preparing for SATs, seeing an independent counselor, traveling to visit colleges, going to dances or dates into town, white water rafting etc.  If you look at all of these events it pretty much eliminates any chance of creating an environment conducive to supporting the necessary elements needed for brainwashing.  It may create a nauseating overzealous team spirit but not much more.



...

Ok, I understand you are posting this just to be insolent or ornery. I can not see any other reason because first you are not qualified to make this statement and you have not done any study or investigation to support your comments. So, we have once again you just spouting off a backyard barbecue conversation you had maybe last Saturday.
In none of your posts to date have I read where you have given a intelligent articulate opinion on the effects of thought reform/brainwashing, the conditions and environments thought reform/brainwashing can incubate and prosper in. How brainwashing effects certain children as opposed to others and how brainwashing is systemic within programs. This whole conversation can go on. But your not looking for that, you just want to make short and sweet comments to inspire someone to play along with you.
If you had any idea how a program operates, well......you would not be making 99% of the comments you make.
Whooter, the children.

addendum: to my comment above. Ursus, said it correctly below (in his post) we are talking about "thought reform" within these programs.

[Whooter]

The isolation from outside ideas, the social isolation from people who are not indoctrinated just isn’t there in many of todays programs, Heretik.  Successful brainwashing requires full control over and uninterrupted attention of the subject which is to be brainwashed.  If the children are off playing sports with other kids outside the program, calling home to family, going into town for date night and attending dances, preparing to take SATs, attending school and seeing independent licensed ocunselors then the foundation for thought control just isn’t there.
There are many other facets to brainwashing like sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation etc.  but isolating the victim is primary in being successful and these kids are not isolated.  Do a little reading up on the subject and then compare the requirements to today's programs and you will see what I am saying.  I can point you to some reading if you are interested.



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[Ursus]

The presence of sports was only one aspect that would hamper an environment conducive to Brainwashing.  If you add in communication with the outside world via phone calls and family vists,  intense academics and preparation for the PSATS or SATs, the coming and going of new hires of staff,  weekly therapy sessions with an independent therapist who communicates with the childs therapist at home etc. makes it very unlikely that the child could undergo brainwashing.

Pbbbffftttt. Please. Sports is just another means of indoctrination for the program; it's all part of the therapeutic milieu. Just 'cuz you play another team once a week or so ... does not in any significant way cut into that. It's not like you are gonna have any meaningful amount of time for socializing with them, eh? Besides, they're the other team. You're trying to beat them, right?

In fact, sports is a particularly important tool of indoctrination at Hyde. Your team is yet another encounter group which can eviscerate you publically on a moments notice for whatever whim may be.

Are you really putting out 125% effort every day? Do you play as a team member (concern for others), or are you trying to be a star, at the expense of others (excessive self interest)? What do you do for practice on your own time (commitment)? Are you keeping your weight within reasonable limits? Are you trying to carve out some slack time by complaining about minor injuries (integrity)? Did you pick the appropriate sport to challenge yourself where you need to be challenged, as opposed to what you'd like to play? Do you have a good attitude, or a BAD ATTITUDE?

As to all that other stuff you listed, Whooter, depending on the institution, some of it occurs right at the program. Not all that much occurs "outside," in the real world.

One has to keep in mind that, while you're in a program, that particular program is your psychological home base. It becomes the seat of your self concept, your means of defining your self. At least it does for enough kids so that the appearance of such is the status quo. Any excursions out, be they actual or just via phone calls, are always experienced in that context. You don't necessarily need physical walls when you can be convinced to erect them within your own mind.

I am not insinuating that the presence of sports negates the possibility of the presence of brain washing.  It is but one facet of many that points towards the improbability that thought reform could thrive in a program.  Kids who are participating in team sports, preparing for SATs, seeing an independent counselor, traveling to visit colleges, going to dances or dates into town, white water rafting etc.  If you look at all of these events it pretty much eliminates any chance of creating an environment conducive to supporting the necessary elements needed for brainwashing.  It may create a nauseating overzealous team spirit but not much more.

What exactly do you mean by "...but one facet of many that points towards the improbability that thought reform could thrive in a program?"

These programs are completely BASED on thought reform. Why else do you think they even exist? Otherwise they wouldn't be programs, they'd be "boarding schools," and you wouldn't be hearing complaints of "cultiness," coercion, brainwashing, etc. Of course, this doesn't even begin to touch on the egregious physical abuses happening above and beyond that from time to time...

When this country started experimenting with the use of psychological coercion as a means of modifying kids' behavior back in the 1950s and 60s, they thought it was quite a progressive alternative to the physical brutality that was then the norm. It seemed like a kinder, gentler, more humane way to go about getting juvenile delinquents in line.

And they haven't stopped since. In fact, they've broadened the target population. Now, it's no longer just kids stuck in juvie or psych wards (where kids were sometimes placed when juvie was considered too rough). Any kind of so-called "maladjustment," minor drug use or the suspicion thereof, defiance and even mere unruly typical teenage behavior is, given sufficiently maleable or intolerant parents, quite enough to get a kid sent away.

[Ursus]

The isolation from outside ideas, the social isolation from people who are not indoctrinated just isn’t there in many of todays programs, Heretik.  Successful brainwashing requires full control over and uninterrupted attention of the subject which is to be brainwashed.  If the children are off playing sports with other kids outside the program, calling home to family, going into town for date night and attending dances, preparing to take SATs, attending school and seeing independent licensed ocunselors then the foundation for thought control just isn’t there.
There are many other facets to brainwashing like sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation etc.  but isolating the victim is primary in being successful and these kids are not isolated.  Do a little reading up on the subject and then compare the requirements to today's programs and you will see what I am saying.  I can point you to some reading if you are interested.

LOLOLOLLLL. I notice you switched to the more inflammatory term "brainwashing" for this part.

You don't need "full control over and uninterrupted attention of the subject" in order to effect thought reform. Ya don't even need to do a complete job! You just need to do enough of a job to effect enough of the group, in order to modify the status quo. The "positive peer culture," part and parcel of that thought reform, takes care of the rest.

It's far more sophisticated these days, not at all like it's depicted in The Manchurian Candidate, which is something a professional propagandist like yourself already knows all too well, Whooter!

[Whooter]

The presence of sports was only one aspect that would hamper an environment conducive to Brainwashing.  If you add in communication with the outside world via phone calls and family vists,  intense academics and preparation for the PSATS or SATs, the coming and going of new hires of staff,  weekly therapy sessions with an independent therapist who communicates with the childs therapist at home etc. makes it very unlikely that the child could undergo brainwashing.

Pbbbffftttt. Please. Sports is just another means of indoctrination for the program; it's all part of the therapeutic milieu. Just 'cuz you play another team once a week or so ... does not in any significant way cut into that. It's not like you are gonna have any meaningful amount of time for socializing with them, eh? Besides, they're the other team. You're trying to beat them, right?

In fact, sports is a particularly important tool of indoctrination at Hyde. Your team is yet another encounter group which can eviscerate you publically on a moments notice for whatever whim may be.

Are you really putting out 125% effort every day? Do you play as a team member (concern for others), or are you trying to be a star, at the expense of others (excessive self interest)? What do you do for practice on your own time (commitment)? Are you keeping your weight within reasonable limits? Are you trying to carve out some slack time by complaining about minor injuries (integrity)? Did you pick the appropriate sport to challenge yourself where you need to be challenged, as opposed to what you'd like to play? Do you have a good attitude, or a BAD ATTITUDE?

As to all that other stuff you listed, Whooter, depending on the institution, some of it occurs right at the program. Not all that much occurs "outside," in the real world.

One has to keep in mind that, while you're in a program, that particular program is your psychological home base. It becomes the seat of your self concept, your means of defining your self. At least it does for enough kids so that the appearance of such is the status quo. Any excursions out, be they actual or just via phone calls, are always experienced in that context. You don't necessarily need physical walls when you can be convinced to erect them within your own mind.

I am not insinuating that the presence of sports negates the possibility of the presence of brain washing.  It is but one facet of many that points towards the improbability that thought reform could thrive in a program.  Kids who are participating in team sports, preparing for SATs, seeing an independent counselor, traveling to visit colleges, going to dances or dates into town, white water rafting etc.  If you look at all of these events it pretty much eliminates any chance of creating an environment conducive to supporting the necessary elements needed for brainwashing.  It may create a nauseating overzealous team spirit but not much more.

What exactly do you mean by "...but one facet of many that points towards the improbability that thought reform could thrive in a program?"

These programs are completely BASED on thought reform. Why else do you think they even exist? Otherwise they wouldn't be programs, they'd be "boarding schools," and you wouldn't be hearing complaints of "cultiness," coercion, brainwashing, etc. Of course, this doesn't even begin to touch on the egregious physical abuses happening above and beyond that from time to time...

When this country started experimenting with the use of psychological coercion as a means of modifying kids' behavior back in the 1950s and 60s, they thought it was quite a progressive alternative to the physical brutality that was then the norm. It seemed like a kinder, gentler, more humane way to go about getting juvenile delinquents in line.

And they haven't stopped since. In fact, they've broadened the target population. Now, it's no longer just kids stuck in juvie or psych wards (where kids were sometimes placed when juvie was considered too rough). Any kind of so-called "maladjustment," minor drug use or the suspicion thereof, defiance and even mere unruly typical teenage behavior is, given sufficiently maleable or intolerant parents, quite enough to get a kid sent away.

Its Behavior Modification, Ursus, not Brain washing.  Sure the average program kids are further isolated from society than public highschool kids are and they are subjected to a very structured environment.  But  if you look at all the elements that need to come together to successfully brainwash a person these programs do not even come close.  I will see if I can locate a link to the elements I am referring to.



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[Whooter]

Because brainwashing is such an invasive form of influence, it requires the complete isolation and dependency of the subject, which is why you mostly hear of brainwashing occurring in prison camps or totalist cults. The agent (the brainwasher) must have complete control over the target (the brainwashee) so that sleep patterns, eating, using the bathroom and the fulfillment of other basic human needs depend on the will of the agent. In the brainwashing process, the agent systematically breaks down the target's identity to the point that it doesn't work anymore. The agent then replaces it with another set of behaviors, attitudes and beliefs that work in the target's current environment.



...

[Shadyacres]

Because brainwashing is such an invasive form of influence, it requires the complete isolation and dependency of the subject, which is why you mostly hear of brainwashing occurring in prison camps or totalist cults. The agent (the brainwasher) must have complete control over the target (the brainwashee) so that sleep patterns, eating, using the bathroom and the fulfillment of other basic human needs depend on the will of the agent. In the brainwashing process, the agent systematically breaks down the target's identity to the point that it doesn't work anymore. The agent then replaces it with another set of behaviors, attitudes and beliefs that work in the target's current environment.

...

That is from Lifton's book, which is 50 years old.  I daresay that today they have refined and perfected it to the point that total control may be accomplished while still presenting the appearance of freedom.  The main target is always the parents anyway, once they brainwash them, then they have the child's entire world under their control.  And of course the parents came to these places looking for help because they were desperate, which made them perfect potential cult recruits.  The parents are the child's only recourse from an abusive or insane program, if they are program fanatics too, then it doesn't matter how many "date nights" they are allowed to EARN (and how do they earn them, I wonder?), you are still controlling their whole world and they have no escape from their tormentors.

[Ursus]

Its Behavior Modification, Ursus, not Brain washing. Sure the average program kids are further isolated from society than public highschool kids are and they are subjected to a very structured environment. But if you look at all the elements that need to come together to successfully brainwash a person these programs do not even come close. I will see if I can locate a link to the elements I am referring to.

Because brainwashing is such an invasive form of influence, it requires the complete isolation and dependency of the subject, which is why you mostly hear of brainwashing occurring in prison camps or totalist cults. The agent (the brainwasher) must have complete control over the target (the brainwashee) so that sleep patterns, eating, using the bathroom and the fulfillment of other basic human needs depend on the will of the agent. In the brainwashing process, the agent systematically breaks down the target's identity to the point that it doesn't work anymore. The agent then replaces it with another set of behaviors, attitudes and beliefs that work in the target's current environment.

Ya know... This all strikes me as yet another one of your derailments based on semantics and vocabulary choices, Whooter. Very similar to the hogwash you've posted in dozens of threads containing your BS arguments re. the "inappropriateness" of other commonly used survivor terminology.

Personally, I see all of these terms (and more) as residing on a continuum of persuasion, with more extreme forms on one end, and less extreme forms on the other. Not exactly like Margaret Singer saw them, but pretty similar. I think certain forms of advertising and propaganda have gotten a lot more aggressive since Singer came up with her chart, and I probably see them as a bit more coercive than she did.

And, while I personally tend to use the terms "thought reform" or "thought coercion" "used to effect behavior modification" (or some similar derivations thereof) ... 'cuz, in my opinion, these terms describe what *I* am talking about more accurately and with greater precision ... if someone uses the term "brainwashing," I'm not gonna flip out and attempt to derail the thread with a sidetrack on vocabulary choice, since I generally know just what the are refering to. This is fornits, after all.

Moreover, who am *I*, or anyone else, for that matter, to judge just how someone's program experience affected them? Seriously, I really think ya gotta let people communicate the way they want to communicate, Whooter. Is it REALLY that important that they use "Whooter-approved" terminology? Geezzz.

I might also reiterate my point earlier in this thread, and more effectively articulated by Shady in his post just above, that programs are a great deal more sophisticated these days about how they cram this stuff into people's craniums. As Mary Poppins perennially warbles, "A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down..."

 :dose:  :dose:  :dose:

[Whooter]

Because brainwashing is such an invasive form of influence, it requires the complete isolation and dependency of the subject, which is why you mostly hear of brainwashing occurring in prison camps or totalist cults. The agent (the brainwasher) must have complete control over the target (the brainwashee) so that sleep patterns, eating, using the bathroom and the fulfillment of other basic human needs depend on the will of the agent. In the brainwashing process, the agent systematically breaks down the target's identity to the point that it doesn't work anymore. The agent then replaces it with another set of behaviors, attitudes and beliefs that work in the target's current environment.

...

That is from Lifton's book, which is 50 years old.  I daresay that today they have refined and perfected it to the point that total control may be accomplished while still presenting the appearance of freedom.  The main target is always the parents anyway, once they brainwash them, then they have the child's entire world under their control.  And of course the parents came to these places looking for help because they were desperate, which made them perfect potential cult recruits.  The parents are the child's only recourse from an abusive or insane program, if they are program fanatics too, then it doesn't matter how many "date nights" they are allowed to EARN (and how do they earn them, I wonder?), you are still controlling their whole world and they have no escape from their tormentors.

Like Brainwashing "Lite".  It sounds a little like the whole kidnapping argument we had months ago.  The kids are not legally kidnapped but it sounds really awful when recounting their story thereby making the program seem bad and abusive.  I dont see how the parents can get brainwashed, the parents are barely involved in the program.  They work full time, attend a few meetings, speak on the phone and then bring the kid home.

From my readings on the subject I think a person is either brainwashed or they are not.  I dont think there is middle ground or shortcuts which can implemented that can be just as effective.  At least I have not read this anywhere, I could be wrong, but I have never seen any evidence of this.


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