deleted September 8, 2011

[Judge Joe Brown]

deleted September 8, 2011

[Whooter]

Great thread!

I think we should start with what education levels are needed for the various positions.  I am sure that most of the people have at least a little education, highschool diploma GED etc. which may be fine for some positions but we should define the standard first in order to determine if the people they hire meet the minimal requirements for their job position.



...

[seamus]

UMMMM.....Lemme see 1.cause they work cheap
                                    2. cause they'll buy in,drink the cool-aid ,and not know any better.
                                    3. they cant be held accountable to any certifications or licences.

                                                                             Does that about cover it? :nods:

[Whooter]

UMMMM.....Lemme see 1.cause they work cheap
                                    2. cause they'll buy in,drink the cool-aid ,and not know any better.
                                    3. they cant be held accountable to any certifications or licences.

                                                                             Does that about cover it? :nods:

Not a bad idea, seamus, think of the profits they could reap if they could just do "on the job training" with high school drop outs lol.  Maybe that is the next generation of schools!



...

[seamus]

Where in the hell do you think straight got ITS staff? Though I sometimes say things in a thin( ok,ok not so thin) layer of sarcasm,that doesnt keep it form being true. Truly a trait of a fraudulent establishment. Caveat emptor and all that shit.
 Why is it Ive never seen any of the wilderness programs having  a trained/ certified First Responder/ W.E.M.T./E.M.T/or Paramedic out the backside of beyond with "troubled" youth? Even if the "therapy" end of it isnt bs,what good does it do a dead child? I fucking hate the Idea of some kid dying some where because profit was more important than life itself. Why do kids die in programs for horseshit reasons? Just to be the devils advocate lemme say this(with a grain of sarcasm)
 What a marketing gimmick from hell it would be to boast of a program actually having such staff. But alas, it might cut into somebodys profits,so ........Even you gotta admit governmental,stauatory reqirements for progams are shoddy as hell.
And that doesent get into the abuse/mindfuck end of it.
 If it were MY child,id want to see documentation for this "fully trained" staff. If memory serves, at straight they were called "para-pofessional", which in reality meant SQUAT.....I seriously doubt there ever could be a " good " program,just because of such issues. Just think of how fucking EXPENSIVE it would have to be to turn a fucking profit,and if it didnt turn a profit, it wouldnt exist( Where would the profit motive be?) at all.

[Whooter]

Where in the hell do you think straight got ITS staff? Though I sometimes say things in a thin( ok,ok not so thin) layer of sarcasm,that doesnt keep it form being true. Truly a trait of a fraudulent establishment. Caveat emptor and all that shit.
 Why is it Ive never seen any of the wilderness programs having  a trained/ certified First Responder/ W.E.M.T./E.M.T/or Paramedic out the backside of beyond with "troubled" youth? Even if the "therapy" end of it isnt bs,what good does it do a dead child? I fucking hate the Idea of some kid dying some where because profit was more important than life itself. Why do kids die in programs for horseshit reasons? Just to be the devils advocate lemme say this(with a grain of sarcasm)
 What a marketing gimmick from hell it would be to boast of a program actually having such staff. But alas, it might cut into somebodys profits,so ........Even you gotta admit governmental,stauatory reqirements for progams are shoddy as hell.
And that doesent get into the abuse/mindfuck end of it.
 If it were MY child,id want to see documentation for this "fully trained" staff. If memory serves, at straight they were called "para-pofessional", which in reality meant SQUAT.....I seriously doubt there ever could be a " good " program,just because of such issues. Just think of how fucking EXPENSIVE it would have to be to turn a fucking profit,and if it didnt turn a profit, it wouldnt exist( Where would the profit motive be?) at all.

It has gotten much better since then, Seamus.  Most of the wilderness programs have licensed personnel which are with the kids and are backed up with Board certified counselors.  I am with you and I also wish they had more requirements around getting these people better trained as first responders or at least getting more trained people into the field.
The wilderness programs are a hell of a lot safer than they were 10, 20 30 years ago and a lot more effective.



...

[psy]

Note:

when a program representative says: "we've changed" or "we don't do that anymore".

he/she really means "we're calling it something else, but it's pretty much the exact same thing."

I have no doubt that programs today are hiring people with records, or at the very least with very little qualification.  WWASP being a good example.  There are countless others, including "reputable" programs, who have been caught employing under-qualified personnel.

[Che Gookin]

They measure it with the body count.

CONFIRM tHE KILL.

[Whooter]

Note:

when a program representative says: "we've changed" or "we don't do that anymore".

he/she really means "we're calling it something else, but it's pretty much the exact same thing."

I have no doubt that programs today are hiring people with records, or at the very least with very little qualification.  WWASP being a good example.  There are countless others, including "reputable" programs, who have been caught employing under-qualified personnel.

Thats why it is important for parents to check themselves.  Qualifications can be verified and parents can ask to speak with other parents who who have had kids go thru the process.  They can ask to see if studies have been done.  etc.



...

[Dysfunction Junction]

Most of the wilderness programs have licensed personnel which are with the kids and are backed up with Board certified counselors.

That's an awfully big claim to make without citation.  You'll have to provide some evidence for this, Whooter.  I have never, ever seen a single "Board Certified Counselor" and here you're claiming most wilderness programs have them backing up "licensed personnel"?  I call bullshit.

[Whooter]

Most of the wilderness programs have licensed personnel which are with the kids and are backed up with Board certified counselors.

That's an awfully big claim to make without citation.  You'll have to provide some evidence for this, Whooter.  I have never, ever seen a single "Board Certified Counselor" and here you're claiming most wilderness programs have them backing up "licensed personnel"?  I call bullshit.

From my readings I was under the impression all Wilderness programs today hired licensed professionals.  

Here are the people from SUWS as an example:

Link

SUWS

Leah is a Certified Counselor with the National Board of Certified Counselors, has a Masters of Science Degree in Community Counseling,
 
Jesse Quam is the Clinical Director for SUWS of the Carolinas. Before earning his Masters of Clinical Social Work from Boston College (May, 2005), Jesse worked for Aspen Achievement Academy,

Clinical Team

4 LPC’s
2 LCSW’s
1 Phd



...

[Dysfunction Junction]

First this...

Most of the wilderness programs have licensed personnel which are with the kids and are backed up with Board certified counselors.

Presented as fact that at least 50% plus one wilderness programs fit this bill.  

From my readings I was under the impression all Wilderness programs today hired licensed professionals.  

Now presented as Whooter's impression based on one counselor from one program having a certification.

I didn't see anywhere even in the sole example you provided that any counselor was actually licensed to practice either.

So, of all wilderness programs in the US today, Whooter has shown that one has one certified counselor, but has failed in a miserable way to prove that the majority of wilderness programs have certified counselors and has not shown any counselors of any wilderness programs to be licensed to practice therapy.

You have to parse Whooter's statements carefully because what he presents as "facts" are actually just his uninformed opinions with no facts at all.

From my readings I was under the impression...

Don't you read Fornits, Whooter?  We have posted dozens of examples of wilderness programs hiring uneducated, unlicensed, uncertified "counselors."  This is usually posted in conjunction with an article describing how a kid in their care was maimed or killed by these very same unqualified people.  Let's knock off the lying, Whooter.  You know as well as the rest of us do that your premise is completely false.  You are now in retreat mode to distance yourself from your ridiculous and false assertion.

[Dysfunction Junction]

UMMMM.....Lemme see 1.cause they work cheap
                                    2. cause they'll buy in,drink the cool-aid ,and not know any better.
                                    3. they cant be held accountable to any certifications or licences.

                                                                             Does that about cover it? :nods:

Pretty much, yes.

[Whooter]

I have never, ever seen a single "Board Certified Counselor" and here you're claiming most wilderness programs have them backing up "licensed personnel"?  I call bullshit.

Lets see, DJ has never seen a Board Certified Counselor in Wilderness Programs.  The first program I looked at was SUWS of the Carolinas

Here are the people from SUWS as an example:

Link

SUWS

Leah is a Certified Counselor with the National Board of Certified Counselors, has a Masters of Science Degree in Community Counseling,
 
Jesse Quam is the Clinical Director for SUWS of the Carolinas. Before earning his Masters of Clinical Social Work from Boston College (May, 2005), Jesse worked for Aspen Achievement Academy,

Clinical Team

4 LPC’s
2 LCSW’s
1 Phd

So we can conclude that wilderness Programs Hire licensed and Board Certified employees.



...

[heretik]

Note:

when a program representative says: "we've changed" or "we don't do that anymore".

he/she really means "we're calling it something else, but it's pretty much the exact same thing."

I have no doubt that programs today are hiring people with records, or at the very least with very little qualification.  WWASP being a good example.  There are countless others, including "reputable" programs, who have been caught employing under-qualified personnel.

Thats why it is important for parents to check themselves.  Qualifications can be verified and parents can ask to speak with other parents who who have had kids go thru the process.  They can ask to see if studies have been done.  etc.



...

"including "reputable" programs"

Geesh, would these be Aspen programs.

Thats why it is important for parents to check themselves.  Qualifications can be verified and parents can ask to speak with other parents who who have had kids go thru the process.  They can ask to see if studies have been done.  etc.

This is just another classical asinine statement that just jumps from your brain to your fingers. Yeah every parent is just doing this Whooter.
OK, lets say the parents do try to investigate the qualifications of employees as you say. One would assume the said program Directors are fully aware of their staff qualifications and/or lack of. That being said, Whooter do you really think that the Director of said program is going to allow this information to be made readily available especially staff that barely made it through H.S.
Shit, the programs can't even find Directors with the proper schooling and we all know know that information was not made available until a program closing "outed" the info, (Bitz, in case you were wondering).
Whooter, all your foolishness is so stupid really. You could give a rats ass about children.