deleted September 8, 2011

[Whooter]

This is just another classical asinine statement that just jumps from your brain to your fingers. Yeah every parent is just doing this Whooter.
OK, lets say the parents do try to investigate the qualifications of employees as you say. One would assume the said program Directors are fully aware of their staff qualifications and/or lack of. That being said, Whooter do you really think that the Director of said program is going to allow this information to be made readily available especially staff that barely made it through H.S.
Shit, the programs can't even find Directors with the proper schooling and we all know know that information was not made available until a program closing "outed" the info, (Bitz, in case you were wondering).
Whooter, all your foolishness is so stupid really. You could give a rats ass about children.

Many of the programs have the names and education right on their website.  We need to be aware that not all the sites are kept up to date.  But you should be able to get started here:

Link



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[Whooter]

Whooter wrote:

It has gotten much better since then, Seamus. Most of the wilderness programs have licensed personnel which are with the kids and are backed up with Board certified counselors. I am with you and I also wish they had more requirements around getting these people better trained as first responders or at least getting more trained people into the field.`

The wilderness programs are a hell of a lot safer than they were 10, 20 30 years ago and a lot more effective.

How would measure effectiveness?

I would measure it by assessing the child upon arrival, again at discharge and then again 6 months or a year out.  With a large enough population you could tell how successful the program has been.



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[Gonzotherapy]

Whooter wrote:


The wilderness programs are a hell of a lot safer than they were 10, 20 30 years ago and a lot more effective.

How would measure effectiveness?

I would measure it by assessing the child upon arrival, again at discharge and then again 6 months or a year out.  With a large enough population you could tell how successful the program has been.



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Don't you think that it would be more effective to assess them 3 or 4 years down the road. These programs are supposed to be life changing. A year out doesn't really show anything, I mean at 100 grand a person, don't you think there should be lifelong change and not just a years worth?

[Whooter]

Don't you think that it would be more effective to assess them 3 or 4 years down the road. These programs are supposed to be life changing. A year out doesn't really show anything, I mean at 100 grand a person, don't you think there should be lifelong change and not just a years worth?

I think that is a really good question.  The program should get the child back on track and then after graduation they should be heading down a healthy path for a reasonable period of time.  But for how long?

After the child graduates he will be outside the influences of the 24/7 care.   He can make choices on what friends to hang around with, where he lives, family influences, what he reads, who he listens too, what road models he chooses and the influences of the program will fade and be replaced by the influences of the environment the child chooses.

I think parents expectations may be until the child reaches adult age, is more mature and can better grasp the consequences of his/her actions.

We could think of it like taking antibiotics for an ear infection.  The doctor can get you all better again and educate you on the causes and then send you back into the world.



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[Whooter]

This is just another classical asinine statement that just jumps from your brain to your fingers. Yeah every parent is just doing this Whooter.
OK, lets say the parents do try to investigate the qualifications of employees as you say. One would assume the said program Directors are fully aware of their staff qualifications and/or lack of. That being said, Whooter do you really think that the Director of said program is going to allow this information to be made readily available especially staff that barely made it through H.S.

Of course they would, Heretik.  The information is available on the programs’ web site most of the time.  They post the names and backgrounds of their staff.  I am sure there are jobs for people who have their High school diploma.  I wouldn’t try to discredit them for that, practically every business has a need for the lower paid/qualified people.

Shit, the programs can't even find Directors with the proper schooling and we all know know that information was not made available until a program closing "outed" the info, (Bitz, in case you were wondering).

I am not sure what you mean?  Sharon Bitz’s education was available for people to view.  Where did you get this idea?
I do admit that it is difficult to find qualified people to relocate to these rural areas, but I don’t see them as under qualified.

Whooter, all your foolishness is so stupid really. You could give a rats ass about children.

Well, the way I see it you are the one who is selfish and couldn’t care about the kids.  You are willing to deny kids treatment because you happen to think all programs are the same.  You are worse than the guy who thinks all programs are great because he had a good experience.  You shouldn’t look at the world as black and white.  There are many shades of gray, Heretik, try to open your mind a little and step back and give the kids credit who worked hard to turn their lives around instead of crapping on them.



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[Dysfunction Junction]

UMMMM.....Lemme see 1.cause they work cheap
                                    2. cause they'll buy in,drink the cool-aid ,and not know any better.
                                    3. they cant be held accountable to any certifications or licences.

                                                                             Does that about cover it? :nods:

seamus knows the deal.  The rest of this thread is basically Whooter trying to avoid this axiom.

[heretik]

Whooter, please show us an example of a employee record/file of all employees (staff) and their qualifications/credentials. Use one of your Aspen favorites. I will guarantee you will not find the lower paid staff (who actually do most of the day to day functions) on your list, properly bio'd.

[Whooter]

Lets take another look:

Residential Program Example:

click  “Faculty & staff Bio’s”
Link
Even the guy who drives the van is listed.

Wilderness Program Example:

Link
Click at the bottom for "complete staff list"
Even the housekeeper is listed!

I have never, ever seen a single "Board Certified Counselor" and here you're claiming most wilderness programs have them backing up "licensed personnel"?  I call bullshit.

Read it and weep, DJ:

Link
Leah is a Certified Counselor with the National Board of Certified Counselors, has a Masters of Science Degree in Community Counseling,


Well what do ya know...."Board Certified Counselors"



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[seamus]

Shit.....Maybe I should be a feild instuctor, I can see my bio now:


                                                                       Seamus, Earl of Donnybrook
                                         I am a graduate and former staff member of Straight inc, I attended university of Florida,majoring in Pre-med. Was an E.M.T./ Paramedic and Firefighter for 14 years, and a Police officer for 2.
I hold current certification as a wilderness 1st responder. I raced dogsleds ,in both sprint,and mid-distance. Have competed in summer biathalon,and shot IPSC as well. In my free time I enjoy reading,writing short stories,climbing , kayaking,cross-country skiing, fishing hunting and winter camping.I play 6 instruments,and ride horses as well. :roflmao:  :ftard:

DISCLAIMER: while seamus is guilty of more than occasional sarcasm,and general asshattery, he has absolutly no desire to be involved in ANY sort of program EVER, on any level.....PERIOD.....Its just not in me. Its not who I am.                                

 I have a buddy, who lives in another state who does give a voluntary demonstration of blacksmithing at a program about every 6 mos or so.He truly does it out of kindness.He says if he ever saw a bruised or battered kid there he'd "rat 'em out" in a hot minute.He says most of the kids are un-happy somehow and just kinda "killing time".

[heretik]

Whooter, you really think we are that stupid and you are Oh, so smarrrrt. Most of those folks on that pretty brochure outside of academic teachers don't even work their full time, the mentors come and go often. Your wilderness program may have the storyteller or not and they may have the same staff or not. These jobs are notorious for turn over unless you are on the top where it pays. But you already knew this. I figured you would pick Swift. Nice try.
The children, Whooter.
Keep going Whooter, there are many more programs, not as pretty as Swift. You really have no morals at all.

[Whooter]

Whooter, you really think we are that stupid and you are Oh, so smarrrrt. Most of those folks on that pretty brochure outside of academic teachers don't even work their full time, the mentors come and go often. Your wilderness program may have the storyteller or not and they may have the same staff or not. These jobs are notorious for turn over unless you are on the top where it pays. But you already knew this. I figured you would pick Swift. Nice try.
The children, Whooter.
Keep going Whooter, there are many more programs, not as pretty as Swift. You really have no morals at all.

Here was you question again:

Whooter, please show us an example of a employee record/file of all employees (staff) and their qualifications/credentials. Use one of your Aspen favorites. I will guarantee you will not find the lower paid staff (who actually do most of the day to day functions) on your list, properly bio'd.

It is exactly what you asked for, Heretik.  The list right down to the housekeepers.  You can claim anything is fake if you like, but the ball is in your court.  If you feel those people dont work there then you need to prove it.  I think you are just a little pissed that I proved you wrong once again.  Your perception of the industry is unrealistic at best.  The facts always trip guys like you up.



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[heretik]

Whooter, stop trying to misdirect what you and I already know (maybe you don't know). Whooter are you trying to say all these clinical counselors work full time at Swift? Mon-Fri/ 52 weeks out of the year except vacation time.
Amato, Jordana    Clinical Counselor
Blackburn, Kathy    Clinical Counselor
Curtis, Richard    Clinical Counselor
Donahue, Elizabeth    Clinical Counselor
Everson, Audrey    Clinical Counselor
Nelson, Alix    Clinical Counselor

[Whooter]

Whooter, stop trying to misdirect what you and I already know (maybe you don't know). Whooter are you trying to say all these clinical counselors work full time at Swift? Mon-Fri/ 52 weeks out of the year except vacation time.
Amato, Jordana    Clinical Counselor
Blackburn, Kathy    Clinical Counselor
Curtis, Richard    Clinical Counselor
Donahue, Elizabeth    Clinical Counselor
Everson, Audrey    Clinical Counselor
Nelson, Alix    Clinical Counselor

Yes it is a snap shot of the employees whenever the last time the web site was updated.  Maybe Kathy Blackburn left and was replaced with a new person for example, but this is a list of their staff.  What did you think it was?



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[heretik]

Whooter, stop trying to misdirect what you and I already know (maybe you don't know). Whooter are you trying to say all these clinical counselors work full time at Swift? Mon-Fri/ 52 weeks out of the year except vacation time.
Amato, Jordana    Clinical Counselor
Blackburn, Kathy    Clinical Counselor
Curtis, Richard    Clinical Counselor
Donahue, Elizabeth    Clinical Counselor
Everson, Audrey    Clinical Counselor
Nelson, Alix    Clinical Counselor

Yes it is a snap shot of the employees whenever the last time the web site was updated.  Maybe Kathy Blackburn left and was replaced with a new person for example, but this is a list of their staff.  What did you think it was?



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So according to you all (6) clinical counselors work full time at Swift.

[Whooter]

Whooter, stop trying to misdirect what you and I already know (maybe you don't know). Whooter are you trying to say all these clinical counselors work full time at Swift? Mon-Fri/ 52 weeks out of the year except vacation time.
Amato, Jordana    Clinical Counselor
Blackburn, Kathy    Clinical Counselor
Curtis, Richard    Clinical Counselor
Donahue, Elizabeth    Clinical Counselor
Everson, Audrey    Clinical Counselor
Nelson, Alix    Clinical Counselor

Yes it is a snap shot of the employees whenever the last time the web site was updated.  Maybe Kathy Blackburn left and was replaced with a new person for example, but this is a list of their staff.  What did you think it was?



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So according to you all (6) clinical counselors work full time at Swift.

Yes, why not call them and ask if there website reflects their present employees.  It is probably very close.  If business drops off then they may reduce to 5 clinical counselors and then pick up another counselor when business picks up again.



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