The smoking gun - do survivors lie?

[psy]

On the other hand, Gonzotherapy, when I exposed certain anti-program people of pretending to be survivors of different programs, making up stories and asked why they posted them these individuals ran off and started deleting their posts and/or changed their user name.

Now was the person who did that a survivor, Whooter?  Tell the truth now.  No.  He was STAFF.  The only other person I know who did that (Sue Scheff) was a parent.  We're discussing survivor's lies here, Whooter.  On topic, too. So put up or shut up. Where is an example.

[Anne Bonney]

On the other hand, Gonzotherapy, when I exposed certain anti-program people of pretending to be survivors of different programs, making up stories and asked why they posted them these individuals ran off and started deleting their posts and/or changed their user name.

Now was the person who did that a survivor, Whooter?  Tell the truth now.  No.  He was STAFF.  The only other person I know who did that (Sue Scheff) was a parent.  We're discussing survivor's lies here, Whooter.  On topic, too. So put up or shut up. Where is an example.

He's accused me of lying and "embellishing" and that I even said that "Straight helped me" and I've asked him numerous times for a citation and never got a response.

[psy]

I f I may here (and I can't believe this is still going on)
Just when is the smallest exageration equal to a bald face lie?
I know the treatment I recieved was real. Now if I in some way compare my expieinces with those of a Korean pow or Russian gulog survivor, does that make me a liar?

Senator Sam Ervin didn't think so.  In fact, he directly compared what we went thru in Straight to what our Korean war POWs went thru.

And Gregory Kutz of the GAO used the term Brainwashing to describe what programs do too. The term is accurate.  It may sound sensational but it is accurate, as are the comparisons to Korean and Chinese brainwashing techniques, especially considering how such techniques aren't as physical as people might think -- mostly comprised of encounter groups.

[Anne Bonney]

I f I may here (and I can't believe this is still going on)
Just when is the smallest exageration equal to a bald face lie?
I know the treatment I recieved was real. Now if I in some way compare my expieinces with those of a Korean pow or Russian gulog survivor, does that make me a liar?

Senator Sam Ervin didn't think so.  In fact, he directly compared what we went thru in Straight to what our Korean war POWs went thru.

And Gregory Kutz of the GAO used the term Brainwashing to describe what programs do too. The term is accurate.  It may sound sensational but it is accurate, as are the comparisons to Korean and Chinese brainwashing techniques, especially considering how such techniques aren't as physical as people might think -- mostly comprised of encounter groups.

Just for clarification purposes.....

I f I may here (and I can't believe this is still going on)
Just when is the smallest exageration equal to a bald face lie?
I know the treatment I recieved was real. Now if I in some way compare my expieinces with those of a Korean pow or Russian gulog survivor, does that make me a liar?

Senator Sam Ervin didn't think so.  In fact, he directly compared what kids went thru in Seed to what our Korean war POWs went thru.

Edited to replace Straight with the Seed.  And Straight was considered by many to be even more abusive than the Seed.

especially considering how such techniques aren't as physical as people might think -- mostly comprised of encounter groups.

Abso-friggin-lutely

[Whooter]

On the other hand, Gonzotherapy, when I exposed certain anti-program people of pretending to be survivors of different programs, making up stories and asked why they posted them these individuals ran off and started deleting their posts and/or changed their user name.

Now was the person who did that a survivor, Whooter?  Tell the truth now.  No.  He was STAFF.  The only other person I know who did that (Sue Scheff) was a parent.  We're discussing survivor's lies here, Whooter.  On topic, too. So put up or shut up. Where is an example.

Psy I was responding to Gonzotherapys question about lies he has read that I have told (I am not a survivor either).  I was pointing out that I have exposed anti program people of lying and making up survivor stories of abuse.  We have seen lies on all sides of the issue I think we can agree.

On to some examples:


Link
My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.
Link
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.

Link
I am reaching the end of my teen years, but already, kids from that age range, look like babies. I can't understand the twisted thinking that goes into having a 13 year old-- this girl weighed about 70 lbs, and was 4 feet ten---kidnapped and institutionalized. Every time I see a kid I know is her age at the time of the abduction and torture, I get physically ill. not just sad, physically ill.

Link
Kids are kidnapped and forced into agrarian labor all the time.



...

[Shadyacres]

And I'm curious Whooter, where do you get off accusing anyone else of being a liar when you have admitted to being a liar yourself? The one instance I have seen in my limited readings of your posts is the fabricated son. So why don't you start a thread called "Why does Whooter need to lie?"

There have been several threads dedicated to pro-program people lying,  parents lying, Whooters lies.  When it was brought up about the fabricated son we reviewed the post and I explained why I wrote what I did.  I stand behind what I wrote.  On the other hand, Gonzotherapy, when I exposed certain anti-program people of pretending to be survivors of different programs, making up stories and asked why they posted them these individuals ran off and started deleting their posts and/or changed their user name.

Very good point. Like I put in one of my first posts on this thread. Whooter's question is loaded. The real question is "do survivors lie", and if they do, where's a good example.

I have provided several examples of people claiming they were kidnapped and as a result ended up in a program.  There are no recorded amber alerts, police reports or documented articles to support any child was ever kidnapped by a program or ended up in a program as a result of a kidnapping.  So why would a person lie about this?  The people taking them to the program would explain that they are paid escorts or as a minimum they could find out by asking their parents what happened.  Why lie about it and risk getting caught and damaging their credibility?


...

Kidnapping does not just have to be for ransom, Whooter, for the thousandth time.  In the cases you keep citing it is the parents themselves who hired the kidnappers, so obviously there would be no amber alerts.  That is why this is so scary, these places don't just brainwash the kids, they convince the parents that it is necessary to deny all human rights to their child, that their child doesn't deserve them right now, as if basic human rights must be earned.  The only obvious liar I have seen on this forum is you.

[Whooter]

Kidnapping does not just have to be for ransom, Whooter, for the thousandth time.  In the cases you keep citing it is the parents themselves who hired the kidnappers, so obviously there would be no amber alerts.  That is why this is so scary, these places don't just brainwash the kids, they convince the parents that it is necessary to deny all human rights to their child, that their child doesn't deserve them right now, as if basic human rights must be earned.  The only obvious liar I have seen on this forum is you.

Bottom line is these kids were transported to their school via an "Escort Service".  They all know that but they choose not to tell the truth.  Why is that?

If an escort Service becomes Kidnapping then does being forced to read become abuse?  Is a day in your room considered Isolation?  Does the program become a prison or gulag?  Do you become an inmate instead of a Resident?  Is being forced to sit in a class room Brainwashing?  Is cleaning the common hallway Agrarian Labor?  Is missing a meal starvation?

How does a person reading the stories interpret them?

Do you see what I mean?



...

[Anne Bonney]

Kidnapping does not just have to be for ransom, Whooter, for the thousandth time.  In the cases you keep citing it is the parents themselves who hired the kidnappers, so obviously there would be no amber alerts.  That is why this is so scary, these places don't just brainwash the kids, they convince the parents that it is necessary to deny all human rights to their child, that their child doesn't deserve them right now, as if basic human rights must be earned.  The only obvious liar I have seen on this forum is you.

A-fucking-men!

 :notworthy:

[Troll Control]

On the other hand, Gonzotherapy, when I exposed certain anti-program people of pretending to be survivors of different programs, making up stories and asked why they posted them these individuals ran off and started deleting their posts and/or changed their user name.

Now was the person who did that a survivor, Whooter?  Tell the truth now.  No.  He was STAFF.  The only other person I know who did that (Sue Scheff) was a parent.  We're discussing survivor's lies here, Whooter.  On topic, too. So put up or shut up. Where is an example.

To be fair, the "examples" Whooter "cited" were fabricated like his "son."  He never did provide any proof whatsoever of those accusations.  He just linked to any random post with an "edit stamp" and claimed that "before it was edited, it said ______."  Which, of course, was a complete fabrication.  

Other "examples" Whooter "cited" were actually posts he himself had written and tried to pin on others by phonying up "quotes" with no links to the OP's.

You have to keep in mind that Whooter is the ultimate prevaricator and lies about everything.  Now Psy appears willing to further perpetrate Whooter's lies without offering a shred of evidence either.  Pretty weak.

[Anne Bonney]

Now Psy appears willing to further perpetrate Whooter's lies without offering a shred of evidence either.  Pretty weak.

[Shadyacres]

Kidnapping does not just have to be for ransom, Whooter, for the thousandth time.  In the cases you keep citing it is the parents themselves who hired the kidnappers, so obviously there would be no amber alerts.  That is why this is so scary, these places don't just brainwash the kids, they convince the parents that it is necessary to deny all human rights to their child, that their child doesn't deserve them right now, as if basic human rights must be earned.  The only obvious liar I have seen on this forum is you.

Bottom line is these kids were transported to their school via an "Escort Service".  They all know that but they choose not to tell the truth.  Why is that?

The Nazi's shipped millions of Jews to death camps, but they called it "relocation".  Why is that?

If an escort Service becomes Kidnapping then does being forced to read become abuse?  Is a day in your room considered Isolation?  Does the program become a prison or gulag?  Do you become an inmate instead of a Resident?  Is being forced to sit in a class room Brainwashing?

If you have to sit in that classroom for 12 hours every day, no moving your head or looking to the sides, no slouching, no bathroom breaks.  Endure endless LGAT sessions, be forced to reveal your deepest secrets so they can be used to manipulate you, then yes, it is brainwashing.

 Is cleaning the common hallway Agrarian Labor?  Is missing a meal starvation?

No, picking okra is agrarian labor though, which is what you would do in the program they sent you to if you hurt someone in my program.  Much like the way WWASP used Tranquility Bay.

How does a person reading the stories interpret them?

I think that survivors use the language they do specifically so they will not NEED an interpreter.

Do you see what I mean?

...

The Orwellian Newspeak you keep insisting we use lest we be thought dishonest was adopted by the programs deliberately to hide the truth of their "treatment model".

Do you see what I mean?

[Whooter]

The Nazi's shipped millions of Jews to death camps, but they called it "relocation". Why is that?

If you study the Nazi relocation program and systematic  extermination of the Jews you would read that these people were asked to pack up their personal belongings (what they could carry) and hop on a truck or train to be relocated.  They were not Kidnapped, they went willingly.

If you have to sit in that classroom for 12 hours every day, no moving your head or looking to the sides, no slouching, no bathroom breaks. Endure endless LGAT sessions, be forced to reveal your deepest secrets so they can be used to manipulate you, then yes, it is brainwashing.

Many people here are under the false impression that I dont accept that abuse occurs in programs.  I would consider this abuse and again I am not saying that abuse did not occur, I am saying that unless people are honest how are we to interpret the stories?  For example in your above description if you had started out by exaggerating that you were kidnapped first then we would have to interpret your quote this way:

“If you had to sit in a classroom for 6 hours every day, no getting up and walking around except for lunch and we had to ask permission to use the bathroom.  Were required to go to LGAT sessions which where designed to help us talk about our problems so that the staff could help us through the tough task of dealing with them."



...

[Shadyacres]

The Nazi's shipped millions of Jews to death camps, but they called it "relocation". Why is that?

If you study the Nazi relocation program and systematic  extermination of the Jews you would read that these people were asked to pack up their personal belongings (what they could carry) and hop on a truck or train to be relocated.  They were not Kidnapped, they went willingly.

...

EXACTLY!  Parents willingly hire "escort services" to take their kid away to a totalitarian thought reform camp.  Just like the jews who thought they were just being relocated, they are completely oblivious to reality until it is too late.

[Anne Bonney]

The Nazi's shipped millions of Jews to death camps, but they called it "relocation". Why is that?

If you study the Nazi relocation program and systematic  extermination of the Jews you would read that these people were asked to pack up their personal belongings (what they could carry) and hop on a truck or train to be relocated.  They were not Kidnapped, they went willingly.

      You've got to be kidding.

“If you had to sit in a classroom for 6 hours every day,

Jeeez, talk about exaggerating, Shady said 12 and you reduced it to 6.  It was actually 12 - 18 hours a day.

no getting up and walking around except for lunch

And even then we were walked by the higher phasers with their hands wrapped around our beltloops, very often so hard that there was actual physical damage done to our genitals.

 

and we had to ask permission to use the bathroom.

Not only that, if the higher phasers didn't feel like we needed to go, they'd deny us. Same thing if we asked for water.  If they did take us we were walked by higher phasers with their hands wrapped around our beltloops, very often so hard that there was actual physical damage done to the genitals and while being watched pissing or taking a shit.  The stall doors were either removed or forced to remain open.

 

Were required to go to LGAT sessions which where designed to help us talk about our problems so that the staff could help us through the tough task of dealing with them."

They were NOT designed to help us.....they were designed to reprogram and control us.  It was directly taken from the re-education/thought reform techniques used by the Koreans on U.S. POWs

[lifeboat]

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31368&start=0

CEDU lifeboat

The lifeboat experience was very hard for me.  I would never wish for anyone in my peer group to die.  This experience made me very sad.  I would never want to say goodbye to friends if I were dying.  I did not like to sort out in my head whether people should die or not.  I have a special compassion for people.  I don't believe that anyone should have to die.  When I had to say goodbye to people like my grandmothers, sister, brother, friends, and put a rose on my mother's grave and one on my father's grave, it shows how much  I love people.  I was also thinking about Shiela's little girl when I went around to her, I don't like thinking like that at all.  I began to think that when the boat was drowning it is was my turn to go to sleep and wonder if my mother felt this way when she died.  I now understand her, I think just from experiencing this exercise.  This exercise is a very important lesson because it teaches me that I have to tell people how much I love them.  I felt small when I was done sharing for one minute why I think I should live.  Because I kept on babbling the same thing over a few times.  There should have been more reasons why I should live - why I felt small.

If a person explains this to an outsider, people think they're crazy and lying.