The smoking gun - do survivors lie?

[Whooter]

Who has established this? I guarantee I can find more kids that would testify that the truth is kidnapping, abuse, brainwashing, etc... Than you could find saying they were liars. Or are we just going to take the word of staff that these kids are liars? The people who have everything to lose if the allegations are true. Of course, if they had actually been abusive they would just admit it, right? They wouldn't try to discredit the accusers by hiring somebody to sit and babysit forums twisting words and making incredibly broad unfounded allegations of lies. I think I should call them up and let them know they are over-paying you. You are a miserable failure at discrediting anything.

I never brought up staff you did.  It doesn’t matter whether or not you are paid to come on here to lie about programs or not.  That doesn’t matter to me.  The fact remains that you are trying to make the readers believe that kids are kidnapped every day, held for years, brainwashed and then re-released into the general population and not one has ever gone to the police to report the kidnappings.  

In the state of Massachusetts if a child is kidnapped it would make national news and various people like Nancy Grace of CNN would hunt these people down.  But this hasn’t happened because these stories are all in your mind, Gonzo.

Go ahead and try telling people in your neighborhood that thousands of kids are being kidnapped, tortured and brainwashed in Gulags dispersed around the United States.  Go to your local police station or FBI and ask them to investigate all these kidnappings.  Then come back and tell us what type of reaction you got.



...

[Gonzotherapy]

Ummm... There is a 100,000,000 lawsuit that is proceeding forward. Charges include kidnapping. Plaintiffs number 250+. The reason they have gotten away with it is because government officials are some of the ones who have profited from these scams. As far as what I am trying to get people believe, I don't think anyone is reading this but you. I am certainly not being paid, I'm sorry you are not astute enough to understand what I wrote. You are obviously the one who is getting paid to be here. Overpaid in my opinion. If you are the best they can do they are in a sad state of affairs. The facts are that they have gotten away with it all because they can afford to, for the time being.

If they wanted to discredit these lies and avoid the lawsuit, they can videotape all of their "escorts" and their methods. That doesn't happen because they will prove that the survivors are TELLING THE TRUTH!!! I was totally on board with survivors not lying. I agree that this discredits and hurts those who tell the truth. But I have not seen one instance of a complete fabrication, only embellishing on true abuse. You sidestep every truth you are faced with. This bores me. Who can you possibly be to accuse others of lying?

[Whooter]

Ummm... There is a 100,000,000 lawsuit that is proceeding forward. Charges include kidnapping. Plaintiffs number 250+. The reason they have gotten away with it is because government officials are some of the ones who have profited from these scams. As far as what I am trying to get people believe, I don't think anyone is reading this but you. I am certainly not being paid, I'm sorry you are not astute enough to understand what I wrote. You are obviously the one who is getting paid to be here. Overpaid in my opinion. If you are the best they can do they are in a sad state of affairs. The facts are that they have gotten away with it all because they can afford to, for the time being.

Do you have a link to a lawsuit in-which a program was found guilty of kidnapping?  How about an escort agency?  How about a pending kidnapping case that is in court?  Anything?

If they wanted to discredit these lies and avoid the lawsuit, they can videotape all of their "escorts" and their methods. That doesn't happen because they will prove that the survivors are TELLING THE TRUTH!!!

If there was a reason to defend themselves then I am sure they would.  Why should the programs worry about the escort agencies?  The program isnt responsible for what the escort agencies do.  You have failed to support your argument.

I was totally on board with survivors not lying. I agree that this discredits and hurts those who tell the truth. But I have not seen one instance of a complete fabrication, only embellishing on true abuse. You sidestep every truth you are faced with. This bores me. Who can you possibly be to accuse others of lying?

You have actually been sidestepping, Gonzo, I have provided you with evidence and each time you come back saying you cannot find it.  Tell you what... show the readers one completed investigation for kidnapping where the child was found and recovered from a program or show us a pending one.  This stuff is all in your mind.



...

[Gonzotherapy]

So, because Bin Laden has not been caught yet he must not be a terrorist? How am I side-stepping. You accuse people of lying, you accuse me of lying. You are obviously paid by programs to help alleviate the wounds forums like this are inflicting. Heres a fact for you. Robert Lichfield, the head of the WWASPS organization was FIRED by Mitt Romney from his finance division, because of allegations of abuse. The lid is coming off, I'm sure you won't be around for me to say I told you so when it does.

Fact, program after program has been closed because of allegations of abuse. Fact, look up the pending lawsuit against WWASPS, they have shown that many of the escort services used were in fact owned by the same people who owned the programs.

Fact- your allegations of lies have less backing than the allegations of abuse do.

[Gonzotherapy]

Link
My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.
Link
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.

Link
I am reaching the end of my teen years, but already, kids from that age range, look like babies. I can't understand the twisted thinking that goes into having a 13 year old-- this girl weighed about 70 lbs, and was 4 feet ten---kidnapped and institutionalized. Every time I see a kid I know is her age at the time of the abduction and torture, I get physically ill. not just sad, physically ill.

Link
Kids are kidnapped and forced into agrarian labor all the time.



...

I have looked at all of these links. Why are they lies? Because you said so?  :ftard:
Really? You didn't excell in debate class did you?

[Whooter]

So, because Bin Laden has not been caught yet he must not be a terrorist? How am I side-stepping. You accuse people of lying, you accuse me of lying. You are obviously paid by programs to help alleviate the wounds forums like this are inflicting. Heres a fact for you. Robert Lichfield, the head of the WWASPS organization was FIRED by Mitt Romney from his finance division, because of allegations of abuse. The lid is coming off, I'm sure you won't be around for me to say I told you so when it does.

Fact, program after program has been closed because of allegations of abuse. Fact, look up the pending lawsuit against WWASPS, they have shown that many of the escort services used were in fact owned by the same people who owned the programs.

Fact- your allegations of lies have less backing than the allegations of abuse do.

I understand WWASP programs, they are on their way out and there are only a few left.  They dont represent the industry in my opinion.  There are over 300 programs today.

All I am saying, Gonzo, is that you are obviously lying because you use the word "Fact" a lot but fail every time to bring evidence to the table.  I am not sure who or what is motivating you to lie here on the forum but I can tell you that it will not work. Maybe you are desperate or something but eventually even the most extreme program haters will require you to provide a link to all these facts you claim to have.



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[Gonzotherapy]

http://www.caica.org/Mitt_Romney_Robert_Lichfield.htm
Feel free to explore the site, everything you claim that I have lied about is right here. FACT.

[Whooter]

http://www.caica.org/Mitt_Romney_Robert_Lichfield.htm
Feel free to explore the site, everything you claim that I have lied about is right here. FACT.

So you concede that you have no evidence of kids being kidnapped or people being prosecuted or convicted for kidnapping.  I didnt think so but I wanted you to realize this in your own time.  A single newspaper article of the kidnappers being apprehended would be a good start.

I am familiar with caica and their articles.



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[Gonzotherapy]

http://www.wturley.com/Recent-Filings/2 ... Claims.pdf
Keep shoveling. You're doing a fine job.

[Whooter]

http://www.wturley.com/Recent-Filings/20090115_Wood_PL_5th_Amd_Complaint_Without_Claims.pdf
Keep shoveling. You're doing a fine job.

Try searching for kidnap or kidnapping.  no mention in your link.



...

[Whooter]

If programs are truly abusive and posters here on fornits believe that then why lie? Why not just write that you were abused in a program and explain what happened and by whom? Why make up stories of being kidnapped and held in a prison, placed in isolation in a Gulag and brainwashed? It is really easy to check the credibility of this. I don’t think one amber alert resulted in the capture of a teenager being located at a program nor a link to a report of a child being kidnapped. Yet we read on fornits that this occurs everyday.

So why the lies? Just curious.



...

[Gonzotherapy]

Well the definition of kidnapping is -- forcibly taking someone against their will. Whether the government recognizes this or not does not make the kidnapee a liar. Of course as we have seen anyone who is anti-program is a liar. You have continually called me a liar. Where is your proof of that? Right there along with your other opinions, I mean "proof".
Whooter
 :agree:

[psy]

On the other hand, Gonzotherapy, when I exposed certain anti-program people of pretending to be survivors of different programs, making up stories and asked why they posted them these individuals ran off and started deleting their posts and/or changed their user name.

Now was the person who did that a survivor, Whooter?  Tell the truth now.  No.  He was STAFF.  The only other person I know who did that (Sue Scheff) was a parent.  We're discussing survivor's lies here, Whooter.  On topic, too. So put up or shut up. Where is an example.

Psy I was responding to Gonzotherapys question about lies he has read that I have told (I am not a survivor either).  I was pointing out that I have exposed anti program people of lying and making up survivor stories of abuse.

Irrelevant.  The topic of the thread was survivor's lies, not the lies of generic anti-program people, which could be interpreted to be a very very wide set of people.  Where is the smoking gun of a lying survivor, Whooter?  You titled the thread "why do survivors need to lie?", implying they do.  Where is the proof for that loaded question?  Quit being evasive and answer the very very simple question.

[psy]

Link
My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.
Link
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.

Link
I am reaching the end of my teen years, but already, kids from that age range, look like babies. I can't understand the twisted thinking that goes into having a 13 year old-- this girl weighed about 70 lbs, and was 4 feet ten---kidnapped and institutionalized. Every time I see a kid I know is her age at the time of the abduction and torture, I get physically ill. not just sad, physically ill.

Link
Kids are kidnapped and forced into agrarian labor all the time.
...

I think that we've established that those are all statements of opinion, and very reasonable ones at that. I can cite case law (search for "evaluative opinion") if you really really want. Where is a false statement of fact (i.e. a lie), Whooter?

An evaluative opinion involves a value judgment based on true information disclosed to or known by the public. Evaluative opinions convey the publisher's judgment as to the quality of another's behavior and, as such, it is not a statement of fact. “Under the Restatement (Second) virtually all ‘evaluative only’ opinions would be nonactionable, since they are by definition based on disclosed facts.... The statement that ‘Jane Doe did not deserve the Oscar for her movie role because it was a shallow, two-bit, hack performance’ is not actionable even in the face of ironclad proof that every other living being who has ever seen the movie loved the performance.”*625 Rodney A. Smolla, Law of Defamation § 6.05 [2], page 6-20 (1988) (citations omitted). The divergent evaluative opinions expressed in the case now before us are subject to debate. Neither is “right” or “wrong.”

In the present case, everyone involved has seen the “movie”; and all the facts upon which opinions were based were “disclosed” in the videotape itself. Those who were of the opinion that Berosini was being abusive to the animals were making an evaluative judgment based on the facts portrayed in the video. All viewers of that video are free to express their opinion on the question of whether they think Berosini was being cruel to those animals, and no one can be successfully sued for expressing such an evaluative opinion-even if it is “wrong.” There is no such thing as a false idea or a wrong opinion. See **1276 Nevada Ind. Broadcasting Corp. v. Allen, 99 Nev. 404, 410, 664 P.2d 337, 341-42 (1983).

In other words, the known facts here are that kids are transported to programs by Escort Services.  When the word "kidnapping" is applied to these known facts it becomes qualitative...  It becomes opinion, even if it might otherwise be legally "false" (however in this case there is a good argument that what escort services do is also legally kidnapping.  Even if "kidnapping" were not evaluative opinion in this context, it could very well be a true statement of fact.

[psy]

be honest how are we to interpret the stories

Interpretations not facts. Interpretations are the facts...  well.. interpreted.  They are opinion.  They cannot be more or less honest or true or false any more than any other opinion can be.  Show me a false statement of fact coming from a survivor.  Example:

"John Doe Staffer punched me." would be a false statement of fact if John Doe never punched me.  On the other hand "the food at Happy Happy Ranch tasted like vomit" is a statement of opinion.