The smoking gun - do survivors lie?

[Shadyacres]

  Do you know why people on fornits use kidnapping, Gulag etc. to describe things and events where no one else does?




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Because we, unlike you, have all had the opportunity to examine at least one of these places up close and personally from the inside.  These places that you advocate for so tirelessly.  You say our accounts are "fantasies that do not exist in the real world", but that is wrong.  They do not exist TO the real world and that is what we want to change.

[RobertBruce]

John why dont you instead of just making vauge blanket accusations, provide a specific post of something you believe a survivor said that was either a lie or an exaggeration.

Your generalizations accomplish nothing.

[Ursus]

It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.

Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.

[Deprogrammed]

Whooter,
Find one post where you think I embellished and lied. Bring it on! Let's examine it.
-DP

[Watchful Yeoman]

I dismiss the premise of this thread based on the OP's credibility problems.

I fabricated a son

Statements like the one above make me dismiss this thread out of hand.  Now, if some credible poster wants to start a credible topic, I'd be glad to weigh in with my thoughts.  This thread is desperate attention-whoring and deflection from Whooter's really bad week that culminated in his confession that he made up his fake family which he does not have.  Where do you go from there, really?

"Survivors lying" hasn't been established by any credible person, so the rest of this thread is fluff.

[Anne Bonney]

I was kidnapped and held captive in a Gulag where I was abused 24/7. The place should be shut down. Every program is abusive and performs brainwashing on people. Not one child has ever benefited from a program. If they tell you this then they must be brainwashed themselves.

Citation please.  I don't recall seeing that post.  Who posted it?

[Whooter]

I was kidnapped and held captive in a Gulag where I was abused 24/7. The place should be shut down. Every program is abusive and performs brainwashing on people. Not one child has ever benefited from a program. If they tell you this then they must be brainwashed themselves.

Citation please.  I don't recall seeing that post.  Who posted it?

Its an example of the language used here on fornits, Anne.  I am trying to make a point about the descriptive words used on fornits... i.e Gulag, Kidnapping,Brainwashing etc.



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[Dysfunction Junction]

Correction, Anne, it's a bunch of BS made up by Whooter that was never posted here.  Another fabricated story from the congenital liar Whooter.

[Dysfunction Junction]

I fabricated a son

Fucking liar.

I admit that

Glad we got to the bottom of it.

[Whooter]

Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.

I think yours is a good example, Ursus.  Imagine a kid writing or talking to an edcon or anyone after returning from a program.  The child says:

Response “A”
My time at XYZ Program was terrible.  The intake process was humiliating because I was required to disrobe and change into the schools uniforms in front of another staff member.  Most of the staff were nice but this one guy Robert Newly would scream at me and forced me to miss several meals.  He made me uncomfortable with some of his contacts which I felt were inappropriate. The school wasn’t bad overall and I managed to move ahead with my studies.  The food wasn’t great.......

Response “B”
After I was kidnapped and transported to the Gulag where I was incarcerated for 16 months I was systematically tortured and abused by the prison guards, starved and held in isolation.  I underwent extensive brainwashing and now have PTSD.

Response “A” would raise a concern and the person hearing this would call immediately to inquire about this Robert Newly and report the findings.  Response “A” was communicated well enough to be believed as credible.

Response “B” would be treated as a sarcastic immature response indicating that the child never bothered to apply themselves and still seeking attention.  I think we can agree that the abuse allegations would not be taken seriously for good reason.

I don’t think you should blame the Edcon for pooh-poohing the credibility of Responder “B”.  A big part of the reason some survivors are not believed is because of the way they communicate in my opinion.  I think listening to many posters speak here on fornits confirms that this language is used very often.  If survivors really were concerned about credibility they would address this issue or at least be open to the possibilities.



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[Froderik]

I fabricated a son

Fucking liar.

I admit that

Glad we got to the bottom of it.

 :roflmao:  :rofl:  :rocker:

[Dysfunction Junction]

I wonder if there are any documented instances of survivors creating fake families so they can share the fake family "program success" with potential marks?  I know this has happened with a program "parent" (not sure if Whooter really is a parent to any non"fabricated" children) here, but I have never heard anyone accusing a survivor of such blatant, self-serving lies used to push an agenda.

I fabricated a son

Personally, I'd have to see something that rises to this level even to give this topic any thought.

[Anne Bonney]

I was kidnapped and held captive in a Gulag where I was abused 24/7. The place should be shut down. Every program is abusive and performs brainwashing on people. Not one child has ever benefited from a program. If they tell you this then they must be brainwashed themselves.

Citation please.  I don't recall seeing that post.  Who posted it?

Its an example of the language used here on fornits, Anne.  I am trying to make a point about the descriptive words used on fornits... i.e Gulag, Kidnapping,Brainwashing etc.

So, no such post exists.  Got it.  Thanks.

[Shadyacres]

Has it been established? Where? Please cite your source or proof for that presumption!

The only source *I've* come across for that kind of statement has been from EdCons and program proponents trying to pooh-pooh the credibility of abuse accounts. And those folk have a pretty compelling incentive to protect their profits.

I think yours is a good example, Ursus.  Imagine a kid writing or talking to an edcon or anyone after returning from a program.  The child says:

Response “A”
My time at XYZ Program was terrible.  The intake process was humiliating because I was required to disrobe and change into the schools uniforms in front of another staff member.  Most of the staff were nice but this one guy Robert Newly would scream at me and forced me to miss several meals.  He made me uncomfortable with some of his contacts which I felt were inappropriate. The school wasn’t bad overall and I managed to move ahead with my studies.  The food wasn’t great.......

Response “B”
After I was kidnapped and transported to the Gulag where I was incarcerated for 16 months I was systematically tortured and abused by the prison guards, starved and held in isolation.  I underwent extensive brainwashing and now have PTSD.

Response “A” would raise a concern and the person hearing this would call immediately to inquire about this Robert Newly and report the findings.  Response “A” was communicated well enough to be believed as credible.

Response “B” would be treated as a sarcastic immature response indicating that the child never bothered to apply themselves and still seeking attention.  I think we can agree that the abuse allegations would not be taken seriously for good reason.

I don’t think you should blame the Edcon for pooh-poohing the credibility of Responder “B”.  A big part of the reason some survivors are not believed is because of the way they communicate in my opinion.  I think listening to many posters speak here on fornits confirms that this language is used very often.  If survivors really were concerned about credibility they would address this issue or at least be open to the possibilities.



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Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?
You have no basis for discounting our accounts except that they seem unlikely to you.  We do not care what seems unlikely to you because we all believe that you make your money off of these places and therefore have solid financial reasons for attempting to discredit us.  The whole LGAT treatment model is abusive.  In the program I was in, ALL of the staff was abusive, because that is what they were trained to be.  We were always hungry, always scared.  Only one way out, become one with those who are abusing me.  How is this different from brainwashing?

[Whooter]

Gulag is the best word the english language has to describe these places.  All of us have been through one of these places Whooter, unlike you, so why do you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge our inside perspective?
You have no basis for discounting our accounts except that they seem unlikely to you.  We do not care what seems unlikely to you because we all believe that you make your money off of these places and therefore have solid financial reasons for attempting to discredit us.  The whole LGAT treatment model is abusive.  In the program I was in, ALL of the staff was abusive, because that is what they were trained to be.  We were always hungry, always scared.  Only one way out, become one with those who are abusing me.  How is this different from brainwashing?

If you speak to fellow survivors or, as Ursus pointed out to edcons or parents, survivor stories are tossed aside as not being very credible.  This isnt my fault (I know you would like to blame me).  I am trying to take a look at why survivor stories are not credible and as I pointed out I think it is at least partially due to the way people here communicate.  It comes across as exaggerated or fantasy of some sort.  

You really think a police officer is going to take you seriously when you speak of Gulags, kidnappings and brainwashing.  If a person were truly abused they would try their best to communicate this to the authorities not use fantasy mixed with reality.  The police can easily check to see if there have been any kids kidnapped recently and conclude you are lying. So why blame the edcons and police for not believing you?



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