Author Topic: Survey for class  (Read 4344 times)

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Offline Samara

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Survey for class
« on: December 01, 2010, 11:10:58 AM »
I am taking a class for post grad work on interaction.  This week's topic is trite, trivial, and banal, but I am supposed to talk about cross-sex (m-f) friendships and survey various people if it really works. Get a candid perspective, esp from guys. We're not talking FWB's, but true m-f friendships.  I already talked about it to my RL amigos, but I am hoping for more candid info here.

I always thought m-f friendships were possible until I got married and all my close male friends I've had over the years stopped calling.

So: Cross Sex Friendship - Can men and women be friends (real friends, hang out friends, w/o the s-xcomponent)

What are the impediments to cross-sex friendship after 30?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Whooter

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Re: Survey for class
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2010, 05:08:39 PM »
You may not be interested in my opinion but I have actually thought about this over the years and find it to be very interesting question.  I had decided a long time ago to let a friendship go because the girl got married and I felt it wasn’t fair to the husband to continue to sustain or pursue the friendship and because it got too complicated.  I have also had a woman not want to be friends anymore with me after I got married and felt maybe the reason was that she had feelings for me that she kept hidden.

If we see two people together all the time and say :”Hey, you guys are spending a lot of time together, whats going on?”… they may respond “We are only good friends”.  This implies that they are not sleeping together.  So we can define friendship as being able to share everything with another person except sex which is how I define it.  If we accept that definition that means two people  can spend lots of time together having fun, sharing stories of each other’s lives asking for advice, talking about intimate details of each others sex lives, supporting each other emotionally and generally becoming close to one another.  Each day that the two people spend together they become closer whether they realize it or not.

To me friendship is an ever evolving and growing relationship between two people with each day growing more intimate and closer to one another.  It never stops even if it moves slowly.  If it is between two men then over the decades they learn each other’s vulnerabilities and things their wives don’t know about them and things they would never want another guy to know about them.  If they are heterosexual there is very little chance of them getting drunk on a hunting trip and sleeping together.  That physical attraction is just not naturally there.  So there is a natural barrier there which will protect the marriage and commitment to your partner.

If the friendship is between a man and a woman and one or both of the people are married then there needs to be a conscious effort to establish limits on the friendship because there is no natural barrier.   Marriage is man made and is therefore unnatural and doesn’t necessarily fit well in nature.  If friendship is ever evolving (which I think it is) and brings people closer over time then eventually the male and female will become attracted to each other and they will want to spend more and more of their time together and eventually sleep together because that is what we do and how we are designed to share ourselves physically.
So if two people have to constantly be holding each other at arms length, being careful and limiting the natural growth of their friendship..i.e. not drinking too much together, no staying overnight at each others house, no sex, no holding hands, no calling each other in the middle of the night during marital strife  then can a non sexual relationship over a long period time between a man and a woman ever be considered natural?  I think the answer is no.  Limiting the natural growth of friendship will eventually end it.



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Offline Samara

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Re: Survey for class
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2010, 06:47:38 PM »
You are right about limiting the natural growth of friendship - new boundaries after marriage kills many cross sex friendships.

But can men and women be platonic friends w/o one wanting more. I mean, men are different. Women are  sensual creatures, but we aren't as easily attracted. We can have close, close friendships with guys and not have any inclination to be fuckbuddies. I don't know if guys can really do that. I mean every guy I have enjoyed close friendships with eventually wanted something more and that complicated things.  If If I was attracted to one of my male friends enough to reap "benefits" then he is either a bf or things get really murky.

It sucks 'cause I love men and miss my old friendships.

What most guys have told me is that men want sex even if they really value the friendship, and once you get married and the hope is gone, then they kind of drift off.  And most wives I know won't tolerate a close friendship between her husband and a female.
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Offline Gonzotherapy

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Re: Survey for class
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2010, 07:01:56 PM »
Guys are sex driven. They are the product of evolution. I have never had a friendship with a girl that did not turn sexual at one time or another. Girls want to bitch about it, but it is what it is. A girl can be friends with a guy without having sexual thoughts, but men are incapable of this. We may have advanced mentally above the rest of the animal kingdom, but we are still animals.

I don't care what any girl says, if she has a friend who's a guy, he has wanted to fuck her. He may not have tried anything, but I guarantee you the thought has crossed his mind. When you get married not having friends of the opposite sex is a matter of respect. Men are whores, blame Darwin.
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Offline Samara

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Re: Survey for class
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2010, 07:35:49 PM »
this is basically what the guys I know tell me EXCEPT in the class. In the class itself, the general consensus is, yes, they can be friends without sex entering into the equation. Well,I am a wee bit older than most of them, and I was one of the few who said no. I think women in their 20s don't want to believe it, because it offends the ego to think that their bf is thinking of his/her female friends that way. We don't always think in those terms so it is hard for us to accept.  A women with more life experience can accept it without threat.  As you indicated, it is what it is. If I knew what I know now -that my friendships with men would not last forever (especially once I got married) - I probabally would have "enjoyed" one or two of them a bit more.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Survey for class
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2010, 07:56:01 PM »
Quote from: "Samara"
You are right about limiting the natural growth of friendship - new boundaries after marriage kills many cross sex friendships.

But can men and women be platonic friends w/o one wanting more. I mean, men are different. Women are  sensual creatures, but we aren't as easily attracted. We can have close, close friendships with guys and not have any inclination to be fuckbuddies. I don't know if guys can really do that. I mean every guy I have enjoyed close friendships with eventually wanted something more and that complicated things.  If If I was attracted to one of my male friends enough to reap "benefits" then he is either a bf or things get really murky.

It sucks 'cause I love men and miss my old friendships.

What most guys have told me is that men want sex even if they really value the friendship, and once you get married and the hope is gone, then they kind of drift off.  And most wives I know won't tolerate a close friendship between her husband and a female.

What your male friends have told you is correct for the most part in my opinion, Samara.

A lot of woman told me that they think men just like to conquer or claim a woman by having sex with them and it was just in their nature, maybe boost mens fragile ego.  I thought this made sense and believed this to be true for many years and thought maybe that is why woman can maintain a very close relationship with men without wanting sex while men cannot.  But over time I have come to realize it is not a conquering thing or a power position that men seek or crave.  

Woman seek out intimacy/companionship with a man (which doesnt need to be sexual).  Men basically seek companionship/sex with a woman (which doesnt need to be intimate).  But if a woman provides and/or sends signals to a man that she wants to be intimate with them then the man is going to read that as she is wanting to have sex.  Once this appearing "false" (or misinterpreted) signal is received the guy will screw up the friendship by thinking the woman wants sex (which is something most guys find difficult to resist) making a move resulting in breaking the rules of friendship.

I don’t see this as a defect or being weak minded.  It is a natural occurrence in nature.  It has happened to me several times.  I loved being around woman my whole life and would go on a vacation with them with full intentions of just being friends, but signals get misinterpreted or sent the wrong way and many times it ended up awkward because I screwed up the signals or wasn’t thinking.

Looking back I truly  believe these were not mistakes, screw ups due to lack of character or morals.  It was the result of getting too close to someone you cared about and expressing that caring in a way that was not acceptable by our rules of society but was dictated by the rules of nature.

If you place two magnets in a room they will be fine being there but as they come closer together the positive magnet sets up a magnetic field affecting the negative magnet.  They can maintain a relationship with one another without touching as long as they don’t get too close.  The moment one of them crosses into the gray zone the negative magnet will be pulled (or the positive magnet will jump) towards the other one and form a union which will satisfy and neutralize their energy.

We can pass all the laws we want concerning these magnets but it will not effect how they react to each other.



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Offline justonemore

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Re: Survey for class
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2010, 12:40:33 PM »
Samarra, and whomever wrote the "magnets" analogy. Loved the anaolgy, great stuff, very accurate in a metaphoric kind of way. Samarra.. two books..(well, three, actually) The territorial imperative, robt. Ardrey, On Agression, Karl what's his name, and Beyond Freedom and Dignity, Skinner, (yeah , that skinner, man got a bad rap, real bad)
In my opinion... as follows... Men are posessive of territory, ie: land, women, machines, power and the machinery of power. it's a biological imperative, just as men are confrontational and physically competitive. Ai'nt a a hell of a lot more complex than you'd see on those T.V.animal shows.... Women, however, are competitive for the males that posess the means to their end, the maximal sucesss of their get ( progeny)  I think women are less hierarchical than men, and therefore necessarily more competitive. ( Just my opinion, and what the hell do I know, I'll dig road- rock for money, or to get the job done.) Men can and often do, punch each other out, and then go have some beers, no hard feelings. I've done it myself.
That may have seemed a ramble, and so it was but in summation, here's what I think. A) platonic friendship between man and woman is possible (I've experienced it) but very, very rare and circumscribed by careful rules. ( Elsewise there'd be total war every day, all the time. consider very primitive societies, like the Yanamamao.) B) society as we have it, is not an accident, but a careful evolution. Many years older than we care to admit. C) The man is never far from the the animal, we forget that to our peril.
J.O.M.
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Offline Froderik

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S.C.U.M. Manifesto (Society for Cutting Up Men)
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2010, 12:48:07 PM »
A link for extreme feminists:

Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation and destroy the male sex.

It is now technically feasible to reproduce without the aid of males (or, for that matter, females) and to produce only females. We must begin immediately to do so. Retaining the male has not even the dubious purpose of reproduction. The male is a biological accident: the Y (male) gene is an incomplete X (female) gene, that is, it has an incomplete set of chromosomes. In other words, the male is an incomplete female, a walking abortion, aborted at the gene stage. To be male is to be deficient, emotionally limited; maleness is a deficiency disease and males are emotional cripples.

The male is completely egocentric, trapped inside himself, incapable of empathizing or identifying with others, or love, friendship, affection of tenderness. He is a completely isolated unit, incapable of rapport with anyone. His responses are entirely visceral, not cerebral; his intelligence is a mere tool in the services of his drives and needs; he is incapable of mental passion, mental interaction; he can't relate to anything other than his own physical sensations. He is a half-dead, unresponsive lump, incapable of giving or receiving pleasure or happiness; consequently, he is at best an utter bore, an inoffensive blob, since only those capable of absorption in others can be charming. He is trapped in a twilight zone halfway between humans and apes, and is far worse off than the apes because, unlike the apes, he is capable of a large array of negative feelings -- hate, jealousy, contempt, disgust, guilt, shame, doubt -- and moreover, he is aware of what he is and what he isn't.


http://www.womynkind.org/scum.htm
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Offline Samara

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Re: Survey for class
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2010, 01:01:35 PM »
yeah, Fro, I'm definitely not one of those extreme feminists. I love men. ;)

Also - any issue with gender parity/discrimination/violence can most effectively be addressed by cross sex dialogue and action.

But I'm just talking about men, women, and FWBs.
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Offline Samara

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Re: Survey for class
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2010, 01:14:42 PM »
isn't that scum manifesto from the chick who shot Warhol?
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Offline heretik

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Re: Survey for class
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2010, 01:32:38 PM »
I am married and I have 2 very good friends that are women. I have had them for about 25 years. I can't say that I ever had a serious sexual appeal for either (that may of helped) in our evolution. We are all married have kids and in some cases kids have kids. We don't talk everyday but I can bet a month doesn't go by that one or the other isn't calling or I am calling them. I get along great with their husbands as their wives get along with my wife. I was involved politically earlier in my life with one, we a supported a senator and campaigned heavily for him. Throughout this ordeal we spent a lot of time together at night after work and on the weekends. I learned a great deal from her. I know this sounds corny but she was just one of the coolest people I had ever met yet I felt no attraction to her and her none to me. It helped we were both married, I'm sure. It also helped that my wife never doubted me and was very supportive as I with her.
Now could I do this in every circumstance I don't know, have not had to test myself much. I am older today, love my wife to much to stray but I also could not image my life without those two in it.
Yes, I believe it is possible very much but you must ask yourself why is this person in my life. Some times it is nothing more then a business friendship (at work), sometimes a mentor relationship (yes women can mentor men on some things) friendships that came from growing up together (everyone's families) and just plain ole garden variety friendships that happen out of other circumstances.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Survey for class
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2010, 05:44:49 PM »
Quote from: "justonemore"
Samarra, and whomever wrote the "magnets" analogy. Loved the anaolgy, great stuff, very accurate in a metaphoric kind of way.

Thank you.



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Offline seamus

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Re: Survey for class
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2010, 06:12:24 PM »
OK Ive lived a shitty life on alot of levels,but ,oddly the one thing Ive NEVER done is cheat in a relationship.Never. It takes a lot for me to fall in love so that is mostly the reason. now I got divorced a year ago ,and just about any female friend iv had after that ive had some sort of sex with.Then Im kinda done with it. Dunno if this is some sort of latent anger coming thru or wtf,but I kinda dont care anymore. Ive been seeing somebody for a couple months,and my attitude is like I dont want you to go but if you do ,bye, ill just fuck somebody else, am I wrong? I just find it un-realistic anymore to believe in things like love or forever. Usta want that,used to think it was possible. Now im like whatever.....pfftt.
 used to be years ago I had  a female friend that I knew for like ten yrs .We always said there was no sexual thing there, until I slept with her best friend,then the shit hit the fan.I got this phone call that was from hell......peeled the paint off the wall,and killed my front lawn. So I geuss im sayin yeah,you can have cross sex friendships,but dont expect em to last... somebody always gets left behind,or becomes a third wheel(kinda like how threesomes work out). But then again if you think about it,one of the sad realities of life is that all relationships end, regardless. People change, people die, shit goes sideways, sad but true.  Aloneness and lonliness arent the same thing either. I can be alone but not lonley. I can be in a roomfull of people ,and at my most lonley. People never want to admit how jealous and territorial they REALLY are.
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It\'d be sad if it wernt so funny,It\'d be funny if it wernt so sad

Offline BuzzKill

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Re: Survey for class
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2010, 06:52:10 PM »
Have you not seen: When Harry met Sally?

I'd say such friendships are possible, with the understanding it won't last. Sex will eventually get in the way, one way or another. That said, I have reason to believe that such friendships can lead to very good relationships, with all the "Fringe benefits"  ;-)
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Offline Samara

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Re: Survey for class
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2010, 07:36:06 PM »
Yep... saw harry met Sally and used clips for my project. and like I said, I sure as hell wish I didn't abstain from some friends because I didn't want to ruin the friendship.  As Seamus said, eventually cross ex friendships end - for one reason or another.... often because one gets married (out of respect) or one was always hoping for more anyway. So, I guess the lesson is, if you have a good friend you'd like to f*ck, do it while you can.
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