Author Topic: Kids in Program Credible?  (Read 20064 times)

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Offline Whooter

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Re: Kids in Program Credible?
« Reply #165 on: November 28, 2010, 06:33:43 PM »
Quote from: "heretik"
Whooter, what is not commendable is your true intent in these conversations you have with sincere members here on this site. You, I believe get a perverse pleasure antagonizing them with your fake benign quotations. Your analogies today do no justice to the children who have suffered and are still suffering under the thumbs of programs misusing the label, "healthy treatment". You have no point at all, this has been established. Awake has presented countless articles and studies for you to comment on and you hesitate to answer. Why??? You have no answer intellectually or emotionally to come back with. "NO EXPERIENCE" professionally or personally.

Heretik, Why just step in and attack me like that? I think that it is possible it is because you may lack the bandwidth to understand and follow along in Awakes and my conversation.  I have made an honest effort in answering Awakes question and I think she has responded well to my requests without resorting to attacking me.  I have noticed that you struggle with conversations which involve critical thinking and as a result you resort to attacking and labeling people which is apparent in this post to me and that is why I have rarely engaged you in conversation here on fornits.

Quote
You are a comical buffoon playing a part that comes from some disturbed latent behavior.
Here is a example of a confused inexperienced comment you constantly make; "The total use of thought control or brainwashing is not acceptable in my opinion, but some of the techniques that are used may be I really dont know".
You really do not know what you want to say, better you say nothing. (Old saying; Better a fool say nothing then speak and leave no shadow of a doubt.)

If you could step back and open your mind a little what you will see that I am saying is that submerging an individual into brainwashing or mind control (as they are defined by the use of them on POW’s in North Korea)  is in my opinion abusive.  Using individual techniques which were developed during this process may not necessarily be abusive whatever they are.  For example Hypnosis is not abusive if the person chooses it.  If a person is removed from a harmful environment then this isolation from these people would not be considered abusive either.  Scare tactics is another technique that could be used and not be abusive.  So just to name a few it seems clear that there is room for discussion in an area in which you have closed your mind off to (too bad for you).

Heretik  if you look at your input in this thread you will notice that you  have avoided any discussion and as a result of your lack of knowledge you resort to an emotional argument among other strategies to protect your closed mind.  If this works for you then that is fine you can leave the discussion up to myself and Awake and if at any point you feel threatened again or feel the need to purge then feel free to jump in and attack me anytime you like,  I can take it because I care much more for the truth than I do about what people, like yourself, think about me.



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Offline heretik

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Re: Kids in Program Credible?
« Reply #166 on: November 28, 2010, 09:10:13 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "heretik"
Whooter, what is not commendable is your true intent in these conversations you have with sincere members here on this site. You, I believe get a perverse pleasure antagonizing them with your fake benign quotations. Your analogies today do no justice to the children who have suffered and are still suffering under the thumbs of programs misusing the label, "healthy treatment". You have no point at all, this has been established. Awake has presented countless articles and studies for you to comment on and you hesitate to answer. Why??? You have no answer intellectually or emotionally to come back with. "NO EXPERIENCE" professionally or personally.

Heretik,  I think that you may lack the bandwidth to understand Awakes and my conversation.  I have made an honest effort in answering Awakes question and I think she has responded well to my requests without resorting to attacking me.  I have noticed that you struggle with conversations which involve critical thinking and as a result resort to attacking and labeling people which is apparent in this post to me.

Quote
You are a comical buffoon playing a part that comes from some disturbed latent behavior.
Here is a example of a confused inexperienced comment you constantly make; "The total use of thought control or brainwashing is not acceptable in my opinion, but some of the techniques that are used may be I really dont know".
You really do not know what you want to say, better you say nothing. (Old saying; Better a fool say nothing then speak and leave no shadow of a doubt.)

If you could step back and open your mind a little what you will see that I am saying is that submerging an individual into brainwashing or mind control (as they are defined by the use of them on POW’s in North Korea)  is in my opinion abusive.  Using individual techniques which were developed during this process may not necessarily be abusive whatever they are.  For example Hypnosis is not abusive if the person chooses it.  If a person is removed from a harmful environment then this isolation from these people would not be considered abusive either.  Scare tactics is another technique that could be used and not be abusive.  So just to name a few it seems clear that there is room for discussion in an area in which you have closed your mind off to (too bad for you).

Heretik  if you look at your input in this thread you will notice that you  have avoided any discussion and as a result of your lack of knowledge you resort to an emotional argument among other strategies to protect your closed mind.  If this works for you then that is fine you can leave the discussion up to myself and Awake and at any point you feel threatened again feel free to jump in and attack me anytime you like,  I can take it because I care much more for the truth than I do about what people think about me.  You, Heretik, on the other hand are so narrow-minded you can see through a keyhole with both eyes.



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Whooter, I can run through at least a hundred of your posts where you give the same response, when you are confronted with your integrity within your posts. We are always attacking you as you see it. No, Whooter I or we are not attacking you, just bringing the truth to light. Your conversations have little or no constructive value in regards to the subject matter that Awake has brought fourth. They are antagonistic attempts by you to interject nonsense  which demeans the experiences of survivors. Just because you come across in your written words as benign, please do not think for a second it is taken for anything more then what it is, fake.
Here is the reason you are a fake because you continue to talk as if everyone we are discussing is a adult. You refuse to address the victims for who they are children, all of your analogies are from the adult perspective. So it appears to me that some latent memory or pathology is happening here.  
So please do not tell me about being closed minded, lacking in knowledge and being emotional. The first two are simply false and the last I will not make excuses for.
BTW,  I don't need to add anymore comment to what Awake is posting because I concur, I have had these conversations with other survivors, psychiatrists and friends many times. I do not profess to know everything about this travesty we call the TTI and I am open minded to sincere debates.
I am sorry but your foolishness just bores me.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Kids in Program Credible?
« Reply #167 on: November 28, 2010, 09:46:28 PM »
Quote from: "heretik"


Whooter, I can run through at least a hundred of your posts where you give the same response, when you are confronted with your integrity within your posts. We are always attacking you as you see it. No, Whooter I or we are not attacking you, just bringing the truth to light. Your conversations have little or no constructive value in regards to the subject matter that Awake has brought fourth. They are antagonistic attempts by you to interject nonsense  which demeans the experiences of survivors. Just because you come across in your written words as benign, please do not think for a second it is taken for anything more then what it is, fake.
Here is the reason you are a fake because you continue to talk as if everyone we are discussing is a adult. You refuse to address the victims for who they are children, all of your analogies are from the adult perspective. So it appears to me that some latent memory or pathology is happening here.  
So please do not tell me about being closed minded, lacking in knowledge and being emotional. The first two are simply false and the last I will not make excuses for.
BTW,  I don't need to add anymore comment to what Awake is posting because I concur, I have had these conversations with other survivors, psychiatrists and friends many times. I do not profess to know everything about this travesty we call the TTI and I am open minded to sincere debates.
I am sorry but your foolishness just bores me.

Then run away and hide, Heretik, if my words threaten your beliefs.  If you feel I should be addressing the children or the adults then speak up, dont be afraid to give your opinion or challenge my thoughts.  If you feel left out because you dont fully understand the roots of where thought reform or brainwashing began then read the links that Awake provided as a start and try to catch up.  I am still a student of this industry myself and am still learning and hopefully will continue to learn new aspects about it every day from posters like awake and others.  Unlike you I dont pretend to know everything, predict people motives and have not closed myself off to other peoples perspective no matter how far fetched they seem to be.  

I am sorry this thread and my words bother you so much.  There is an ignore feature which fornits provides which works out quite well for some folk here which may serve you well also.  Good luck in your quest of judging and attacking those posts which you do not agree with lol.  They say alot about you.  But if at some point you want to shed your insecure attacking ways and share your opinions with the readers we will still be here and will treat your opinions equally and will not judge you as harshly as you judge others.



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Offline iamartsy

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Re: Kids in Program Credible?
« Reply #168 on: November 28, 2010, 10:24:29 PM »
I had no "history of lying and manipulation"! I was totally credible, and my parents knew it from the day I took them out to the ball field and told them the truth about the facility I was in. They started adding things up, and kept track of the lies. When the shit hit the fan, my parents knew who was telling the truth. It was not the facility. It was there lesbian daughter! I was simply sent away for being lesbian! I was discharged at patient's request, and rightfully so! Programs are NEVER credible. Get a grip.
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Offline Ursus

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free choice and informed consent
« Reply #169 on: November 28, 2010, 10:25:32 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"
You'd be correct that that theory is substantiated in the field of group dynamics an human relations training, however this would be in a completely democratic context in which all parties are there with complete informed consent as to the process, unlike the teen who is often forcefully taken into a program. I think that adds further risk of harm in using it. I would agree the human element of error by staff further increases the risk, as no one can truly know what another person is experiencing. I would identify the directions ofthe organization itself upon it's staff to be more important than that in producing a harmful effect.

The vast majority of programs are going to be based on a peer pressure system to change behavior and induce conformity.  There is no law that dictates when programs can’t abuse that control method. So if manipulation of peer pressure by staff is harmful and abusive if misapplied, isn’t every kid that goes to a program at risk of being abused?

BTW I know you haven’t looked into it much but what I hear you saying is that you might actually believe thought reform, mind control and coercive persuasion are justified forms of therapy as behavior modification. Peer pressure based behavior motivation is intrinsic to programs and thought reform. It may be worth looking into.

viewtopic.php?f=81&t=31447
viewtopic.php?f=81&t=30423
Exactly, awake, there is nothing intrinsic to the programs design which would unnecessarily expose the child to abuse.  I can agree that there are levels of risk associated with, and dependent upon, the training of the staff members involved in overseeing a peer pressure system.  But the use of peer pressure isn’t abusive in and of itself nor by design and to answer your question as to whether there is a risk involved in sending a child to a program.  The answer is “Yes”, definitely.  But before a child is sent to a program the parents and professionals need to weigh the risk of  “not” sending the child to a program.

As far as thought reform and mind control I have read up on these and do not consider them an acceptable form of therapy.  In fact I don’t consider them therapy at all.
The intrinsic flaw you have missed is the element of free choice on the part of the teen. That is the design flaw that is in denial of an individuals’ existential qualities. So with that in mind do you think techniques that are used to coerce, from thought reform, mind control are acceptable forms of behavior modification for programs to use in any way that fits the business model by troubled teen programs?
I never understood this argument that kids entering into programs should be given all this free choice and adult status. It should be just the opposite in my opinion. The child was making poor choices when they were outside of the program and therefore their choices should be further restricted not opened up more. Wouldn’t you agree with this?
This beckons back to the concept of INFORMED CONSENT. What do you feel about the necessity of, let alone feasibility of providing, "informed consent," Whooter? Aren't kids basically incapable of providing fully informed consent given that they are still minors by definition?
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Kids in Program Credible?
« Reply #170 on: November 29, 2010, 04:21:03 AM »
Quote from: "iamartsy"
I had no "history of lying and manipulation"! I was totally credible, and my parents knew it from the day I took them out to the ball field and told them the truth about the facility I was in. They started adding things up, and kept track of the lies. When the shit hit the fan, my parents knew who was telling the truth. It was not the facility. It was there lesbian daughter! I was simply sent away for being lesbian! I was discharged at patient's request, and rightfully so! Programs are NEVER credible. Get a grip.

So the program is not the one who determines the childs credibility.  If a child was lying to their parents prior to being placed then they would probably have a difficult time convincing their parents that the program was not a very good fit for them or the the program was abusive.  Whereas in the cases like yours where you had a strong trusting bond with your family when push came to shove your parents believed you.
This was the case with my daughter, I knew her well enough, on certain levels, that if she were having a problem she could tell me and I would believe her.



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Offline Whooter

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Re: free choice and informed consent
« Reply #171 on: November 29, 2010, 04:31:17 AM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
This beckons back to the concept of INFORMED CONSENT. What do you feel about the necessity of, let alone feasibility of providing, "informed consent," Whooter? Aren't kids basically incapable of providing fully informed consent given that they are still minors by definition?

This is always the gray area to me.  Some kids are mature enough to be left alone in the house after school at age 10 and seem mature enough to vote and have an adult conversation, others couldn't be trusted alone at age 18.  Each child is different and the law states that the parents need to handle the "Consent" until age 18.

Many processes require consent in order for them to be successful.  Therapy is one of them.  But if we waited around for the child to ask for therapy then there wouldnt be a need for child therapists because most kids just don't ask .  Its up to the parents to recognize the child's need and get them set up with a therapist with the hopes that the child will open up to it down the road.  They may resist at first or be uncomfortable but in many cases the bond takes hold and the therapy becomes effective.



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Offline heretik

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Re: Kids in Program Credible?
« Reply #172 on: November 29, 2010, 02:25:12 PM »
duplicate...
« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 02:30:12 PM by heretik »

Offline heretik

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Re: Kids in Program Credible?
« Reply #173 on: November 29, 2010, 02:28:30 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "heretik"


Whooter, I can run through at least a hundred of your posts where you give the same response, when you are confronted with your integrity within your posts. We are always attacking you as you see it. No, Whooter I or we are not attacking you, just bringing the truth to light. Your conversations have little or no constructive value in regards to the subject matter that Awake has brought fourth. They are antagonistic attempts by you to interject nonsense  which demeans the experiences of survivors. Just because you come across in your written words as benign, please do not think for a second it is taken for anything more then what it is, fake.
Here is the reason you are a fake because you continue to talk as if everyone we are discussing is a adult. You refuse to address the victims for who they are children, all of your analogies are from the adult perspective. So it appears to me that some latent memory or pathology is happening here.  
So please do not tell me about being closed minded, lacking in knowledge and being emotional. The first two are simply false and the last I will not make excuses for.
BTW,  I don't need to add anymore comment to what Awake is posting because I concur, I have had these conversations with other survivors, psychiatrists and friends many times. I do not profess to know everything about this travesty we call the TTI and I am open minded to sincere debates.
I am sorry but your foolishness just bores me.

Then run away and hide, Heretik, if my words threaten your beliefs.  If you feel I should be addressing the children or the adults then speak up, dont be afraid to give your opinion or challenge my thoughts.  If you feel left out because you dont fully understand the roots of where thought reform or brainwashing began then read the links that Awake provided as a start and try to catch up.  I am still a student of this industry myself and am still learning an.d hopefully will continue to learn new aspects about it every day from posters like awake and others. Unlike you I dont pretend to know everything, predict people motives and have not closed myself off to other peoples perspective no matter how far fetched they seem to be.

I am sorry this thread and my words bother you so much.  There is an ignore feature which fornits provides which works out quite well for some folk here which may serve you well also.  Good luck in your quest of judging and attacking those posts which you do not agree with lol.  They say alot about you.  But if at some point you want to shed your insecure attacking ways and share your opinions with the readers we will still be here and will treat your opinions equally and will not judge you as harshly as you judge others.



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Here is your typical patent answer above to any criticism you receive. Whooter, your words are not threatening to me, why would they be. I wish you would stop referring to my criticism of your intent as attacking you, it is not. Far from it. I amass my opinions through your postings, sorry your truth is hard to hear.

"Unlike you I dont pretend to know everything, predict people motives and have not closed myself off to other peoples perspective no matter how far fetched they seem to be".

This comment is interesting, I really think you should read your words again. Whooter you do exactly this everyday here.

As far as informed consent, it would be a pleasure to hear you speak for the children as everyone else has here. We have never been discussing adult situations.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Kids in Program Credible?
« Reply #174 on: November 29, 2010, 04:34:55 PM »
Quote from: "heretik"

As far as informed consent, it would be a pleasure to hear you speak for the children as everyone else has here. We have never been discussing adult situations.

You are fairly new here,Heretik and probably were never involved or exposed to any of the discussions of the adult situations after programs.  There have been many over the years.  I think if we can all also focus on the children ("In programs today"!!) it would go a long way in helping them.  Speaking about what occurred 3 or 4 decades ago is interesting and all but doesn't do much to help today's kids.
I believe the majority of the programs today are structured to help the kids build up their self esteem, build family bonds and get them set on a healthy track.  As we find programs to be abusive we need to identify them and expose them the best we can.



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Offline Gonzotherapy

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Re: Kids in Program Credible?
« Reply #175 on: November 29, 2010, 05:38:18 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
 Speaking about what occurred 3 or 4 decades ago is interesting and all but doesn't do much to help today's kids.
I believe the majority of the programs today are structured to help the kids build up their self esteem, build family bonds and get them set on a healthy track.  As we find programs to be abusive we need to identify them and expose them the best we can.

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I have provided numerous links showing that not only are the programs today run nearly identical to programs ten years ago, but that the same sick people are still running them under different names. I have provided enough links to prove my argument, you on the other hand haven't provided a single shred of evidence that proves yours. Advertisements by programs are not any evidence to prove they are not the horrible places they have always been. And the ONLY reports I have seen from independent psychiatrists warn of the dangers of programs.

So enough of the hot air Whooter, show us a fact. Just one.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Kids in Program Credible?
« Reply #176 on: November 29, 2010, 05:53:51 PM »
Quote from: "Gonzotherapy"
Quote from: "Whooter"
 Speaking about what occurred 3 or 4 decades ago is interesting and all but doesn't do much to help today's kids.
I believe the majority of the programs today are structured to help the kids build up their self esteem, build family bonds and get them set on a healthy track.  As we find programs to be abusive we need to identify them and expose them the best we can.

...

I have provided numerous links showing that not only are the programs today run nearly identical to programs ten years ago, but that the same sick people are still running them under different names. I have provided enough links to prove my argument, you on the other hand haven't provided a single shred of evidence that proves yours. Advertisements by programs are not any evidence to prove they are not the horrible places they have always been. And the ONLY reports I have seen from independent psychiatrists warn of the dangers of programs.

So enough of the hot air Whooter, show us a fact. Just one.

10 years ago isnt that far off, Gonzo.  I presented a study which was conducted surveying 1,000 graduates and their parents covering various areas of many programs.  The results showed that the programs were up to 85% successful.  

There was a guy who spent 16 months in a program following a peer group, had full access and then wrote a book on it.  His description doesnt even compare to some of the stories were read bout here from 20 30 years ago.

Also if you take a look at the personal accounts of people in programs 20 or 30 years ago they describe the kids being held in these places with no predetermined time when they would get out.  If the kids ran away or broke the rules of the program they were still held there or brought back.  Kids would get almost no education and very few moved onto college.  Its much different today.



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Offline Awake

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Re: Kids in Program Credible?
« Reply #177 on: November 29, 2010, 06:08:36 PM »
Whooter, I have seen you making insinuations about others that they are narrow minded. And you’d be right in thinking that it’s not quite the case when you’re willing put yourself in the shoes of a troubled teen.  Do you think you yourself could open up a bit more to that? I had been asking you a question awhile ago,  maybe you are willing to answer it now.

I was wondering, why did you need to run from your therapy and not decide to stick with your program? Couldn’t opening up to it have helped you attain a bit of perspective?

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442&hilit=education+about+forced+therapy

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Offline Whooter

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Re: Kids in Program Credible?
« Reply #178 on: November 29, 2010, 09:25:13 PM »
Quote from: "Awake"
Whooter, I have seen you making insinuations about others that they are narrow minded. And you’d be right in thinking that it’s not quite the case when you’re willing put yourself in the shoes of a troubled teen.  Do you think you yourself could open up a bit more to that? I had been asking you a question awhile ago,  maybe you are willing to answer it now.

I was wondering, why did you need to run from your therapy and not decide to stick with your program? Couldn’t opening up to it have helped you attain a bit of perspective?

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442&hilit=education+about+forced+therapy

.

Granted, Initially the kids are forced into the therapeutic process but most of them eventually embrace it if they connect and get along with their therapist.  So it is consensual and the child benefits from it the same way an adult would.  The only difference is that the child doesn't consent at the onset.



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Offline Awake

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Re: Kids in Program Credible?
« Reply #179 on: November 29, 2010, 09:36:48 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"
Whooter, I have seen you making insinuations about others that they are narrow minded. And you’d be right in thinking that it’s not quite the case when you’re willing put yourself in the shoes of a troubled teen.  Do you think you yourself could open up a bit more to that? I had been asking you a question awhile ago,  maybe you are willing to answer it now.

I was wondering, why did you need to run from your therapy and not decide to stick with your program? Couldn’t opening up to it have helped you attain a bit of perspective?

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442&hilit=education+about+forced+therapy

.

Granted, Initially the kids are forced into the therapeutic process but most of them eventually embrace it if they connect and get along with their therapist.  So it is consensual and the child benefits from it the same way an adult would.  The only difference is that the child doesn't consent at the onset.
.


It sounds like you are saying you didn't open up enough to give this a chance. Do you think it's possible that some of the negative sentiment to you on this board has something to do with you being closed off to their experience? I hear your sentiment there, and see it as better for your awareness for you not to avoid it. Down deep I think you feel this experience would have been good for you if you were willing to open up a bit.



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