Author Topic: Kids in Program Credible?  (Read 18208 times)

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Offline psy

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Kids in Program Credible?
« on: November 20, 2010, 12:31:35 AM »
Quote from: "wwasprapedmymind"
The reason there are more graduates on anti-program sites is that they saw more.  Most graduates faked their way through the program because they realized they had no other way out.  When you've been lying to your parents for years, who are they going to believe?  You or the "responsible adults" holding you captive?  And when the captors have a $5000/month incentive to keep you, to what lengths will they go to keep you?
Especially when they already know you wont be believed.  You become the perfect victim, and your parents the perfect marks.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Brainwashed
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2010, 07:36:50 AM »
If a particular child has a history of lying and manipulation then it will be difficult for the parents to believe the child over the program staff.  So when those rare instances occur when a child really does get abused then the parents or other staff members may not believe them.

This is why the child needs to re-establish themselves as “credible” as quickly as they can.  If they continue to lie and manipulate throughout the program they make themselves a bigger target to be taken advantage of in this area.



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Offline RobertBruce

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Re: Brainwashed
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2010, 09:32:44 AM »
Even if the child in question does, these programmies have much longer records of not only lying and manipulating (both kids and parents) but abusing kids in order to get their way. Are they anymore credible because they lie and abuse kids for money?
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Brainwashed
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2010, 09:53:32 AM »
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
Even if the child in question does, these programmies have much longer records of not only lying and manipulating (both kids and parents) but abusing kids in order to get their way. Are they anymore credible because they lie and abuse kids for money?

If a program has a widely known history of lying to the parents and their son has a history of never lying then the parents would naturally believe their own child over the program.  I think we can all agree here.

If the child had a history of lying prior to entering the program and the parents had no reason to suspect that the program staff was lying or had any motivation to lie to them then the parents would believe the staff person every-time.  This is the position the child placed him/herself in when they engaged in this activity prior to being sent to a program.
The child needs to quickly turn around their behavior and gain credibility again in the programs' and parents' eyes.  Its not an easy situation to be in I agree.



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Offline RobertBruce

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Re: Brainwashed
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2010, 10:00:56 AM »
Quote
If a program has a widely known history of lying to the parents and their son has a history of never lying then the parents would naturally believe their own child over the program. I think we can all agree here.

If the child had a history of lying prior to entering the program and the parents had no reason to suspect that the program staff was lying or had any motivation to lie to them then the parents would believe the staff person every-time. This is the position the child placed him/herself in when they engaged in this activity prior to being sent to a program.
The child needs to quickly turn around their behavior and gain credibility again in the programs' and parents' eyes. Its not an easy situation to be in I agree.


Are you saying that a child who has a history of lying deserves to be physically tortured and abused? Why wouldnt the parents in question do their homework before sending their child to an abusive program? How or why should a child care about gaining credibility with an abusive program? I know I didn't.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Brainwashed
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2010, 10:11:22 AM »
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
Quote
If a program has a widely known history of lying to the parents and their son has a history of never lying then the parents would naturally believe their own child over the program. I think we can all agree here.

If the child had a history of lying prior to entering the program and the parents had no reason to suspect that the program staff was lying or had any motivation to lie to them then the parents would believe the staff person every-time. This is the position the child placed him/herself in when they engaged in this activity prior to being sent to a program.
The child needs to quickly turn around their behavior and gain credibility again in the programs' and parents' eyes. Its not an easy situation to be in I agree.


Are you saying that a child who has a history of lying deserves to be physically tortured and abused? Why wouldnt the parents in question do their homework before sending their child to an abusive program? How or why should a child care about gaining credibility with an abusive program? I know I didn't.

No one deserves to be abused.  Most parents do what they feel is appropriate research or hire an ed consultant prior to placing their child.  If the child ends up in an abusive program then they are pretty much screwed, but for the vast majority of them if they turn around their behavior then they will start seeing their credibility increase and get back on a healthy path.



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Offline RobertBruce

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Re: Brainwashed
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2010, 10:44:28 AM »
Quote
No one deserves to be abused. Most parents do what they feel is appropriate research or hire an ed consultant prior to placing their child. If the child ends up in an abusive program then they are pretty much screwed, but for the vast majority of them if they turn around their behavior then they will start seeing their credibility increase and get back on a healthy path.


Most parents? Vast majority? Where are you getting this information Whooter? What are you basing it on?
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Offline Deprogrammed

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Re: Brainwashed
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2010, 10:57:53 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
If a particular child has a history of lying and manipulation then it will be difficult for the parents to believe the child over the program staff.  So when those rare instances occur when a child really does get abused then the parents or other staff members may not believe them.

This is why the child needs to re-establish themselves as “credible” as quickly as they can.  If they continue to lie and manipulate throughout the program they make themselves a bigger target to be taken advantage of in this area.



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So when those rare instances occur when a child really does get abused then the parents or other staff members may not believe them.
Rare incidents? My ass...look around the internet at all of the complaints againt many programs including this one from the original poster. Give me a break Whooter......Your "spin" has no validity here. Grow up! While ye are at it...GET REAL!

Hey Whooter...have ye ever been a kid in a program? If not have a seat!
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Brainwashed
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2010, 11:05:33 AM »
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
Quote
No one deserves to be abused. Most parents do what they feel is appropriate research or hire an ed consultant prior to placing their child. If the child ends up in an abusive program then they are pretty much screwed, but for the vast majority of them if they turn around their behavior then they will start seeing their credibility increase and get back on a healthy path.


Most parents? Vast majority? Where are you getting this information Whooter? What are you basing it on?

There is very little existing data on the TTI so we need to go with our experiences.  I base my post on what I have read here on fornits, outside of fornits and the people that I have met that have had children placed in programs and the children themselves.  Very few kids do not do well and the overwhelming majority of the kids benefit greatly from their stay at a program.
Fornits does not represent your average cross section of kids who were sent to programs.  This is an entirely different culture here which has its own language and definitions and is not representative of the majority of survivors.  You would know this if you ever speak to a child who went to a program whether they did good or poorly they speak about the pros as well as the cons (they dont use the terms gulags, incarceration, kidnapping, isolation etc.).  Here on fornits a reader rarely reads a post which speaks of nothing but the negative aspects of a program.
Do you see what I mean?



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Offline RobertBruce

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Re: Brainwashed
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2010, 11:09:23 AM »
Quote
the overwhelming majority of the kids benefit greatly from their stay at a program.

How can you with your admittedly limited experience make such a claim? What data have you seen that would suggest this is true?
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Brainwashed
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2010, 11:27:37 AM »
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
Quote
the overwhelming majority of the kids benefit greatly from their stay at a program.

How can you with your admittedly limited experience make such a claim? What data have you seen that would suggest this is true?


Robert, you need to get outside of fornits and read some of the alumni sites, speak to some of the parents and kids who have attended these programs to understand what I am talking about. I have a balanced view of the industry because I have seen kids who do well and those who have not done so well. I dont think you have ever had the opportunity to speak with parents and kids who did well in a program and benefited from their stay. Your experience is limited to only those kids who did poorly like those here on fornits. So naturally you would view the industry has mostly (or altogether) negative and I think we can all understand that.

If your father beat you and you had friends whose fathers beat them and then you joined a group of people brought together because they had this parental beatings in common than you would have a fairly dim view of fathers in general.  If someone like myself came along and started speaking about fathers who took their kids fishing on weekends and spent time with them and never hit them they would be treated the same way I am being treated.  Even though this person brought a fresh perspective on fatherhood and a more balanced view of family life you would be skeptical about his point of view.  I think this would be understandable also.

So I don’t expect you to embrace my outside information or anyone elses, but it doesn’t make it any less factual.



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Offline RobertBruce

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Re: Brainwashed
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2010, 11:36:07 AM »
So you haven't seen and cannot provide any actual data then?
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Brainwashed
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2010, 11:48:46 AM »
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
So you haven't seen and cannot provide any actual data then?

Other than the few studies which have been released there is no data that I am aware of that covers the entire industry.  In the absence of data what one needs to do is speak to those who have attended the programs.  Speak to parents who have been through it and their children.  You dont want to form an opinion based on one alumni site or a site that is primarily negative.  You want to gather as much information as you can from all sides of the issue before formulating an opinion.



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Offline Shadyacres

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Re: Brainwashed
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2010, 11:49:12 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
There is very little existing data on the TTI so we need to go with our experiences.  I base my post on what I have read here on fornits, outside of fornits and the people that I have met that have had children placed in programs and the children themselves.  Very few kids do not do well and the overwhelming majority of the kids benefit greatly from their stay at a program.
Fornits does not represent your average cross section of kids who were sent to programs.  This is an entirely different culture here which has its own language and definitions and is not representative of the majority of survivors.  You would know this if you ever speak to a child who went to a program whether they did good or poorly they speak about the pros as well as the cons (they dont use the terms gulags, incarceration, kidnapping, isolation etc.). Here on fornits a reader rarely reads a post which speaks of nothing but the negative aspects of a program.
Do you see what I mean?

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Welcome back Whooter,  good to see you are as nonsensical as usual.  You are contradicting yourself, first you say ; "I base my post on what I have read here on fornits",  then you say;  "Very few kids do not do well and the overwhelming majority of the kids benefit greatly from their stay at a program", which is a perspective only occupied by you, here.  I believe that I, personally, have enough data to state that the overwhelming majority of the kids are greatly diminished by their stay at a program.  I have read the recent accounts of survivors and they are NEARLY IDENTICAL to my memories of the Straight spinoff I was in in '85.  And the reason a fornits reader rarely reads a post which speaks of anything positive in a program is there isn't anything positive about these programs, they are a nightmare come true, for the kids as well as the parents.  Parents  might gain the compliance of their kid, but at the expense of the longterm health of their relationship with them.  Do YOU see what I mean?
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Brainwashed
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2010, 12:02:37 PM »
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Quote from: "Whooter"
There is very little existing data on the TTI so we need to go with our experiences.  I base my post on what I have read here on fornits, outside of fornits and the people that I have met that have had children placed in programs and the children themselves.  Very few kids do not do well and the overwhelming majority of the kids benefit greatly from their stay at a program.
Fornits does not represent your average cross section of kids who were sent to programs.  This is an entirely different culture here which has its own language and definitions and is not representative of the majority of survivors.  You would know this if you ever speak to a child who went to a program whether they did good or poorly they speak about the pros as well as the cons (they dont use the terms gulags, incarceration, kidnapping, isolation etc.). Here on fornits a reader rarely reads a post which speaks of nothing but the negative aspects of a program.
Do you see what I mean?

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Welcome back Whooter,  good to see you are as nonsensical as usual.  You are contradicting yourself, first you say ; "I base my post on what I have read here on fornits",  then you say;  "Very few kids do not do well and the overwhelming majority of the kids benefit greatly from their stay at a program", which is a perspective only occupied by you, here.  I believe that I, personally, have enough data to state that the overwhelming majority of the kids are greatly diminished by their stay at a program.  I have read the recent accounts of survivors and they are NEARLY IDENTICAL to my memories of the Straight spinoff I was in in '85.  And the reason a fornits reader rarely reads a post which speaks of anything positive in a program is there isn't anything positive about these programs, they are a nightmare come true, for the kids as well as the parents.  Parents  might gain the compliance of their kid, but at the expense of the longterm health of their relationship with them.  Do YOU see what I mean?

I have spoken to many kids and families and they differ greatly from the accounts here on fornits.  Most kids (even the ones who did poorly) speak about the good and bad aspects of the program.  If they feel they were abused by a staff member they still recall staff members who were good to them and other parts of the programs which were positive.  On the flip side there are kids who did great and turned around their lives and can speak to the areas of the program which they did not like as well as those areas which they feel were positive.

Compare this to fornits stories which are striped of anything positive.  Any first time reader will quickly realize there is an agenda to paint the industry as negative.  You dont realize it because you have been here so long ans have learned to accept the negativity.



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