Kids in Program Credible?

[Whooter]

Compare this to fornits stories which are striped of anything positive.  Any first time reader will quickly realize there is an agenda to paint the industry as negative.  You dont realize it because you have been here so long ans have learned to accept the negativity.

Sometimes "negativity" as you paint it, is simply the unvarnished truth.  When an organization exists that mistreats kids for profit (or misplaced ideology) there is often very little that's positive.  Hey.  At the program I was in I had one or two positive experiences (mostly with learning to build furniture -- which the program sold at a profit -- for some bizarre reason I liked it), but the rest of it was pretty much universally negative.  One good thing does not outweigh all the bad and when you're giving an overall evaluation of a program it's very easy to forget to mention it.  It's simply not relevant.

Psy, this is one of those topics that just raises a red flag for me (and I am sure many other readers who dont post), just like the kidnapping topic. I am sure I will come across as insensitive in trying to express my thoughts on this topic.   I have read stories from regulars here that are stripped bare of anything positive from that time period.  If you read stories from Shaggy and a few others they will tell you honestly that the place was abusive but maybe the food was okay or they had a couple of good staff members or met a really good friend or learned how to paint etc.  These things happen naturally in life.  Even Holocaust survivors who suffered one of the greatest losses retell their stories with recounts of friendships made, guards who were kind to the children etc.

Reading stories that paint the entire experience negative from the color of the walls to every staff member just losses all credibility in my opinion and shows that there is an obvious agenda present, so we, as readers, are left not knowing what to believe within that account except the kid is angry and probably abused, but the details are not credible.
I have pointed out posts which show a high level of credibility which outlined the abuse that occurred along with the positive aspects of the program.  Why are people afraid to say they met a good friend or enjoyed pizza when it was served or a helpful staff member?  Why try to lay the negative paint on so thick that their story losses credibility?  Do survivors just not see this in each others stories?  



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[maruska]

Compare this to fornits stories which are striped of anything positive.  Any first time reader will quickly realize there is an agenda to paint the industry as negative.  You dont realize it because you have been here so long ans have learned to accept the negativity.

Sometimes "negativity" as you paint it, is simply the unvarnished truth.  When an organization exists that mistreats kids for profit (or misplaced ideology) there is often very little that's positive.  Hey.  At the program I was in I had one or two positive experiences (mostly with learning to build furniture -- which the program sold at a profit -- for some bizarre reason I liked it), but the rest of it was pretty much universally negative.  One good thing does not outweigh all the bad and when you're giving an overall evaluation of a program it's very easy to forget to mention it.  It's simply not relevant.

Psy, this is one of those topics that just raises a red flag for me (and I am sure many other readers who dont post), just like the kidnapping topic. I am sure I will come across as insensitive in trying to express my thoughts on this topic.   I have read stories from regulars here that are stripped bare of anything positive from that time period.  If you read stories from Shaggy and a few others they will tell you honestly that the place was abusive but maybe the food was okay or they had a couple of good staff members or met a really good friend or learned how to paint etc.  These things happen naturally in life.  Even Holocaust survivors who suffered one of the greatest losses retell their stories with recounts of friendships made, guards who were kind to the children etc.

Reading stories that paint the entire experience negative from the color of the walls to every staff member just losses all credibility in my opinion and shows that there is an obvious agenda present, so we, as readers, are left not knowing what to believe within that account except the kid is angry and probably abused, but the details are not credible.
I have pointed out posts which show a high level of credibility which outlined the abuse that occurred along with the positive aspects of the program.  Why are people afraid to say they met a good friend or enjoyed pizza when it was served or a helpful staff member?  Why try to lay the negative paint on so thick that their story losses credibility?  Do survivors just not see this in each others stories?  



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Even Holocaust survivors who suffered one of the greatest losses retell their stories with recounts of friendships made, guards who were kind to the children etc.

Are you serious?  :flame:

[Whooter]

Even Holocaust survivors who suffered one of the greatest losses retell their stories with recounts of friendships made, guards who were kind to the children etc.

Are you serious?  :flame:

If you ever get a chance to visit Washington DC take some time out to visit the Holocaust Museum.  Just walk thru the museum and read and listen, really listen.  Listen to the words of the survivors and the tails of their experiences the loved ones the lose and the hardship they endured.  You will not find one of them ever saying that all Germans are evil etc.  They speak about the occurrences naturally.  Life still occurs even under the most horrible circumstances.
If you read the survivors stories here on fornits many lack the natural details of life (they have been stripped from the readers view).  Even someone who has never heard of programs before would never believe that every staff person is evil and abusive, yet that is how the stories are formulated here.  Many try to lead the readers to believe that they never met a good friend, enjoyed a certain meal, learned to enjoy writing during their time their, connected with a staff member, enjoyed snow for the first time etc.  Many of the stories lack credibility because of this.

If I was raped by my teacher at school and beaten I would be justified as saying I did not have a very good experience in highschool.  But if I went onto a web site and started writing my story explaining how every teacher is a rapist and I never met one friend in highschool, the food was horrible, everychild was raped, I never learned to read or write, I learned science but I dont credit the teachers for that, I eventually went to college but I dont credit the highschool for that, I did it in spite of them.  My story didnt include one positive aspect of my time in highschool then the whole story sinks and loses credibility.  I think many here on fornits spend so much energy trying to paint the industry as evil as possible that they forget to tell the whole story.



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[Shadyacres]

Reading stories that paint the entire experience negative from the color of the walls to every staff member just losses all credibility in my opinion and shows that there is an obvious agenda present, so we, as readers, are left not knowing what to believe within that account except the kid is angry and probably abused, but the details are not credible.
I have pointed out posts which show a high level of credibility which outlined the abuse that occurred along with the positive aspects of the program.  Why are people afraid to say they met a good friend or enjoyed pizza when it was served or a helpful staff member?  Why try to lay the negative paint on so thick that their story losses credibility?  Do survivors just not see this in each others stories?  

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Your problem, Whooter, is that you simply will not believe how abusive these places were, and still are.  I have no good memories at all, it was non-stop misery from the moment I opened my eyes in the morning to the moment I closed them to try to sleep at night.  I was being held captive by insane fascist zealots bent on destroying my very personality.  So they could install a "better" one.  The pizza would have to be the best ever made to stand out in the middle of THAT.  All my memories of that place really are bad.  No good ones.  Just bad.  And you know where you can stick your "credibility".

[Whooter]

Reading stories that paint the entire experience negative from the color of the walls to every staff member just losses all credibility in my opinion and shows that there is an obvious agenda present, so we, as readers, are left not knowing what to believe within that account except the kid is angry and probably abused, but the details are not credible.
I have pointed out posts which show a high level of credibility which outlined the abuse that occurred along with the positive aspects of the program.  Why are people afraid to say they met a good friend or enjoyed pizza when it was served or a helpful staff member?  Why try to lay the negative paint on so thick that their story losses credibility?  Do survivors just not see this in each others stories?  

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Your problem, Whooter, is that you simply will not believe how abusive these places were, and still are.  I have no good memories at all, it was non-stop misery from the moment I opened my eyes in the morning to the moment I closed them to try to sleep at night.  I was being held captive by insane fascist zealots bent on destroying my very personality.  So they could install a "better" one.  The pizza would have to be the best ever made to stand out in the middle of THAT.  All my memories of that place really are bad.  No good ones.  Just bad.  And you know where you can stick your "credibility".

all I am saying is that is my point of view.  Other readers my find the stories here very credible.  I just seem to think there is something missing in many of the stories which raises a flag for me.



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[Shadyacres]

Reading stories that paint the entire experience negative from the color of the walls to every staff member just losses all credibility in my opinion and shows that there is an obvious agenda present, so we, as readers, are left not knowing what to believe within that account except the kid is angry and probably abused, but the details are not credible.
I have pointed out posts which show a high level of credibility which outlined the abuse that occurred along with the positive aspects of the program.  Why are people afraid to say they met a good friend or enjoyed pizza when it was served or a helpful staff member?  Why try to lay the negative paint on so thick that their story losses credibility?  Do survivors just not see this in each others stories?  

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Your problem, Whooter, is that you simply will not believe how abusive these places were, and still are.  I have no good memories at all, it was non-stop misery from the moment I opened my eyes in the morning to the moment I closed them to try to sleep at night.  I was being held captive by insane fascist zealots bent on destroying my very personality.  So they could install a "better" one.  The pizza would have to be the best ever made to stand out in the middle of THAT.  All my memories of that place really are bad.  No good ones.  Just bad.  And you know where you can stick your "credibility".

all I am saying is that is my point of view.  Other readers my find the stories here very credible.  I just seem to think there is something missing in many of the stories which raises a flag for me.

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Like the red flag that comes up for me every time you post, it says "program toady" on it.

[Froderik]

Like the red flag that comes up for me every time you post, it says "program toady" on it.

 :rofl: Some things never change..  :spam:

[Whooter]

Like the red flag that comes up for me every time you post, it says "program toady" on it.

I have no idea what that means, Shady.  I am guessing that you see me as jumping around from one thread to another posting about programs?  I enjoy discussing different facets of the industry.  There are many posters who like to just stick to the "HLA" forum or "Straight" forum but I have a more diverse interest so it may seem that I hop around more but it doesnt mean my posts are any less sincere.



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[Antigen]

Fornits does not represent your average cross section of kids who were sent to programs. This is an entirely different culture here which has its own language and definitions and is not representative of the majority of survivors. You would know this if you ever speak to a child who went to a program whether they did good or poorly they speak about the pros as well as the cons (they dont use the terms gulags, incarceration, kidnapping, isolation etc.). Here on fornits a reader rarely reads a post which speaks of nothing but the negative aspects of a program.
Do you see what I mean?

I do believe in fairies. I do! I do!

Whooter, aside from paid and/or coerced industry promo material, where do you find any significant number of program graduates who view the experience as helpful and non-abusive? Really. Where?

[Shadyacres]

Like the red flag that comes up for me every time you post, it says "program toady" on it.

I have no idea what that means, Shady.  I am guessing that you see me as jumping around from one thread to another posting about programs?  I enjoy discussing different facets of the industry.  There are many posters who like to just stick to the "HLA" forum or "Straight" forum but I have a more diverse interest so it may seem that I hop around more but it doesnt mean my posts are any less sincere.

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toady |?t?d?|
noun ( pl. toadies)
a person who behaves obsequiously to someone important.
verb ( toadies, toadied) [ intrans. ]
act in an obsequious way : she imagined him toadying to his rich clients.
DERIVATIVES
toadyish adjective
toadyism |-?iz?m| noun
ORIGIN early 19th cent.: said to be a contraction of toad-eater, a charlatan's assistant who ate toads; toads were regarded as poisonous, and the assistant's survival was thought to be due to the efficacy of the charlatan's remedy.

[Whooter]

Fornits does not represent your average cross section of kids who were sent to programs. This is an entirely different culture here which has its own language and definitions and is not representative of the majority of survivors. You would know this if you ever speak to a child who went to a program whether they did good or poorly they speak about the pros as well as the cons (they dont use the terms gulags, incarceration, kidnapping, isolation etc.). Here on fornits a reader rarely reads a post which speaks of nothing but the negative aspects of a program.
Do you see what I mean?

I do believe in fairies. I do! I do!

Whooter, aside from paid and/or coerced industry promo material, where do you find any significant number of program graduates who view the experience as helpful and non-abusive? Really. Where?

Just because information is paid for doesn't mean it is inaccurate.  If you are a business and you want a study done on the outcome of your product or to measure your success/failure you will most likely have to pay for this yourself.  There are not may people willing to step forward and pay for the study for you.  If you have a study done and it turns out to be good then you would naturally want to use this material as part of your marketing strategy for your business to help offset the cost of the study and get the word out to potential customers.

The instances of abuse in these places is extremely rare, but they are highlighted here on fornits.  I think we could agree that people with positive experiences dont hang around here very long.  I have visited many alumni sites which allowed people to sit in and read and their stories are vastly different from those here on fornits.  They are also more up to date and reflect the current views of recent graduates for these programs.  I have read parents and kids testimonials on various program sites.  (I do understand that they only post the most positive ones.)

So there is a lot of information on program graduates if you look around hard enough and keep in mind the source and motivation for posting the information as you read it.  You can get a general sense on how the industry is doing and if people are benefiting from it or not.



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[Shadyacres]

The instances of abuse in these places is extremely rare, but they are highlighted here on fornits.  I think we could agree that people with positive experiences dont hang around here very long.  I have visited many alumni sites which allowed people to sit in and read and their stories are vastly different from those here on fornits.  They are also more up to date and reflect the current views of recent graduates for these programs.  I have read parents and kids testimonials on various program sites.  (I do understand that they only post the most positive ones.)

So there is a lot of information on program graduates if you look around hard enough and keep in mind the source and motivation for posting the information as you read it.  You can get a general sense on how the industry is doing and if people are benefiting from it or not.

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One of the most notorious abusive programs, Straight Inc., never had any shortage of glowing reviews from parents and their brainwashed kids; http://survivingstraightinc.com/StPeter ... sement.pdf .  I think, in light of this, positive program testimonials should be read with suspicion.

[mark babitz]

Fornits does not represent your average cross section of kids who were sent to programs. This is an entirely different culture here which has its own language and definitions and is not representative of the majority of survivors. You would know this if you ever speak to a child who went to a program whether they did good or poorly they speak about the pros as well as the cons (they dont use the terms gulags, incarceration, kidnapping, isolation etc.). Here on fornits a reader rarely reads a post which speaks of nothing but the negative aspects of a program.
Do you see what I mean?

I do believe in fairies. I do! I do!

Whooter, aside from paid and/or coerced industry promo material, where do you find any significant number of program graduates who view the experience as helpful and non-abusive? Really. Where?

Yes there are pros as well as the cons,but if one kid is harmed thats one too many.
And unfortunately allot have been harmed.You can't forget tho, exposure to negative and dangerous behaviors can spur thoughts and aggressions in some people, that were very suppressed and not brought out till triggered in a negative way.Some of those triggers don't react till years later,life itself causes confusion,and to have suppressed thoughts that were placed in you as a youth as ok thoughts and behaviors, due to very heavy peer pressure, could always surface later in life, and manifest into who know what. Why do perfectly normal folk just snap one day,??? and when asked, it goes 90% to their childhood.


I think programs work for some but not all, a person has to be strong minded and willed to make it in a program, and unfortunately many are not, and it's just over looked. Every one doesn't make it threw Boot Camp in the Military and thats ok,but at least the Gov throws them out right away for the most part.. But programs being Money motivated don't care and find pleasure I think in trampling the weaker folks of the world, and really causing them damage and problems for life.

Some people in life let everything roll off their back, and some hold onto it forever. It is no more complicated than that.Even the weak find strength,and they should be heard,thats how they can become strong and overcome their fears and haunts in life from the programs an find some understanding.There is a message in everyones words,Thats why there are open forums to talk and discuss,

No ones right or wrong ,they are all just feeling and opinions. :cheers:  :cheers:  :rocker:  :rocker:  :rocker:  :peace:  :peace:  :peace:

[Shadyacres]

I think programs work for some but not all, a person has to be strong minded and willed to make it in a program, and unfortunately many are not, and it's just over looked. Every one doesn't make it threw Boot Camp in the Military and thats ok,but at least the Gov throws them out right away for the most part.. But programs being Money motivated don't care and find pleasure I think in trampling the weaker folks of the world, and really causing them damage and problems for life.

Some people in life let everything roll off their back, and some hold onto it forever. It is no more complicated than that.Even the weak find strength,and they should be heard,thats how they can become strong and overcome their fears and haunts in life from the programs an find some understanding.There is a message in everyones words,Thats why there are open forums to talk and discuss,

I don't see it that way at all.  Believing that the person you are has value, and not wanting zealots to crush that person out of you, does not make you weak.  On the contrary, I was strong willed and strong minded enough to split as soon as they moved me to phase 2.  You think that you just "let it roll off your back" and I am just "holding onto it".  From where I'm standing, you just roll over and accept your role as victim, while I am still trying to tell anyone who will listen what kind of people run these places and what their real methods are so hopefully they will not do this to their children.  And "weak", in the group setting, just means that you are different from the automatons that make up the group.

[Whooter]

One of the most notorious abusive programs, Straight Inc., never had any shortage of glowing reviews from parents and their brainwashed kids; http://survivingstraightinc.com/StPeter ... sement.pdf .  I think, in light of this, positive program testimonials should be read with suspicion.

But businesses should not discontinue asking people for testimonials because of one place.  Some places will reflect accurately what the business out put is while others will not.  We need to all understand that the businesses are putting their best foot forward and they will never post the negative responses.  But we can always look at fornits for the negative feedback.  Looking at all the data gives us all a balanced view of the industry.



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