Kids in Program Credible?

[Shadyacres]

.  Any first time reader will quickly realize there is an agenda to paint the industry as negative.  You dont realize it because you have been here so long ans have learned to accept the negativity.

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No paint involved, we want to strip away the "paint" and allow the negativity so abundant in this industry a chance to be seen by all.  You don't realize it because you have absolutely no direct experience with these programs.  Just a program parent pleased as punch with what you have done to your "daughter", right?

[RobertBruce]

Other than the few studies which have been released there is no data that I am aware of that covers the entire industry. In the absence of data what one needs to do is speak to those who have attended the programs. Speak to parents who have been through it and their children. You dont want to form an opinion based on one alumni site or a site that is primarily negative. You want to gather as much information as you can from all sides of the issue before formulating an opinion.

What studies? You're guessing Whooter. You're allowing the fact that you have a fiduciary interest to this industry to cloud your judgement. Keep in mind you are talking to people who experienced this industry and the abuse it employs first hand. You did not. If these people who you claim benefitted from their experiences are the vast majority then tell us; Where are they? Why isn't there actual data to back up your claim? Why are so many of these places being forced to close their doors?

[Whooter]

What studies? You're guessing Whooter.

There were a few studies done. One in particular questioned 1,000 graduates and their parents from 6 or 10 different programs and found them to be 85% (approx. I dont remember the exact figure) successful.  The kids got back on a healthy path.  We have covered this study in depth a few times here on fornits.


 

You're allowing the fact that you have a fiduciary interest to this industry to cloud your judgement.

No, I wish I were getting a piece of the action.  The programs seem to be very profitable when the economy is doing well.

Keep in mind you are talking to people who experienced this industry and the abuse it employs first hand. You did not.

I was clear about that, Robert, as I stated earlier.  I spoke to people who graduated from programs and their parents.  I have also read alumni group comments on different programs

If these people who you claim benefitted from their experiences are the vast majority then tell us; Where are they?

They all dont hang out together if that is what you mean.  They have all moved on to college, got married etc.

Why isn't there actual data to back up your claim? Why are so many of these places being forced to close their doors?

There have been a few studies that have been done.  My thought is that they are expensive to do and there is little incentive to have them done.  Unless they can see a return on their investment I dont see how they could justify a large expense to their stockholders.  If the studies are successful then they can use this as part of their marketing strategy and try to offset the cost of the studies.



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[RobertBruce]

There were a few studies done. One in particular questioned 1,000 graduates and their parents from 6 or 10 different programs and found them to be 85% (approx. I dont remember the exact figure) successful. The kids got back on a healthy path. We have covered this study in depth a few times here on fornits.

Are you referring to your exit surveys? That is by no means an independent or scientific study.

No, I wish I were getting a piece of the action. The programs seem to be very profitable when the economy is doing well.

How would you know what their profit margins are like? The ones that are closing down due to abuse, are those considered successful?

I was clear about that, Robert, as I stated earlier. I spoke to people who graduated from programs and their parents. I have also read alumni group comments on different programs

Talk to whomever you like, just keep in mind that we experienced this industy first hand you did not, and we talk to more survivors than you. Our testimony bears more weight than yours.

They all dont hang out together if that is what you mean. They have all moved on to college, got married etc.

Many people who state that they were abused by this industry, myself included, have gotten married and moved onto college. What does that have to do why they arent supporting this industry?

There have been a few studies that have been done.

Please link to them.

[Whooter]

Are you referring to your exit surveys? That is by no means an independent or scientific study.

No there was a study performed by an independent agency on 1,000 kids and their families.  The finding were presented at the annual APA Conference.

How would you know what their profit margins are like? The ones that are closing down due to abuse, are those considered successful?

If a place is closing down or closed down then I think we can both agree that it was not successful.  If children were abused then this would not be success either.

Talk to whomever you like, just keep in mind that we experienced this industy first hand you did not, and we talk to more survivors than you. Our testimony bears more weight than yours.

Technically, I spent more time inside programs than you have.  You clocked 3 weeks, which you admitted to and then went back to change your post.  This was also confirmed by an outside source would posted here on fornits.  Your experience is also limited to one side of the industry, I have seen many facets

Many people who state that they were abused by this industry, myself included, have gotten married and moved onto college. What does that have to do why they arent supporting this industry?

I dont follow you.  People who were hurt by an industry typically band together not those who were helped by it.  If you ever had an opportunity to man a customer service line you would be hard pressed to find someone who called to express their delight on how their new television was working or witness workers marching out front of a business because they were happy with their "cost of living" raise.

As far as the studies go, you were involved in the conversations and participated in all the discussion.  You will find them in the TTI forum which should refresh your memory.



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[RobertBruce]

No there was a study performed by an independent agency on 1,000 kids and their families. The finding were presented at the annual APA Conference.

Please link to the study. I'd be interested in seeing it.

If a place is closing down or closed down then I think we can both agree that it was not successful. If children were abused then this would not be success either.

Can you name any programs that have not been shown to be abusive and successful?

Technically, I spent more time inside programs than you have. You clocked 3 weeks, which you admitted to and then went back to change your post. This was also confirmed by an outside source would posted here on fornits. Your experience is also limited to one side of the industry, I have seen many facets

We're all still waiting for you provide some sort of evidence for your lie  :seg: but so far you keep coming back empty. No suprises there. That aside any kid who spent even a day locked up in a program still has one up on you. You've never been locked up against your will in one of these places, we have. Making your program experiences limited and one sided.

I dont follow you. People who were hurt by an industry typically band together not those who were helped by it. If you ever had an opportunity to man a customer service line you would be hard pressed to find someone who called to express their delight on how their new television was working or witness workers marching out front of a business because they were happy with their "cost of living" raise.

People who support a movement or a program will come out to offer said support when they feel that institution is under attack. Especially one that claims to save so many lives. So far all these programmies here is a lot of crickets. Where is the support?

As far as the studies go, you were involved in the conversations and participated in all the discussion. You will find them in the TTI forum which should refresh your memory.

A conversation on fornits is not a study. You would do best to learn the difference.

[Whooter]

Please link to the study. I'd be interested in seeing it.

We have all read the study over and over.  yourself included.  Find it yourself if you want a refresher.

Can you name any programs that have not been shown to be abusive and successful?

Of course!  We all know that.  Many of the Aspen programs, ASR Aspen Ranch.  I provided a list of 5 or 6 a few months ago also.  

We're all still waiting for you provide some sort of evidence for your lie  :seg: but so far you keep coming back empty. No suprises there. That aside any kid who spent even a day locked up in a program still has one up on you. You've never been locked up against your will in one of these places, we have. Making your program experiences limited and one sided.

Sorry, Bruce, I am not going to bite.  If you want to maintain that you spent longer than 3 weeks in a program knock yourself out.  Any first day reader can see that you have limited experience based on your biased one-sided point of view.

Provide a few examples of programs which are beneficial to the kids that attend them and help the majority of the kids who attend them?  Show the readers that you have experienced more than one side of the industry.

Do you see what I mean?

People who support a movement or a program will come out to offer said support when they feel that institution is under attack. Especially one that claims to save so many lives. So far all these programmies here is a lot of crickets. Where is the support?

Exactly, read in some of the alumni facebook pages or alumni sites.  They defend themselves very quickly indeed.

A conversation on fornits is not a study. You would do best to learn the difference.

Again, dont be insulting, Bruce.  I never stated that a conversation was a study.  The study resides here on fornits in the TTI section.  If you continue to be insulting we will postpone the conversation until later.  

Remember you are going to try to shoot for 30 days without insulting or attacking people.  If you misunderstand a post then ask for clarification dont assume something and attack them for it.  If you continue I will just stop responding to your posts.



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[RobertBruce]

We have all read the study over and over. yourself included. Find it yourself if you want a refresher.

All I'm seeing is you not providing a link.

Of course! We all know that. Many of the Aspen programs, ASR Aspen Ranch. I provided a list of 5 or 6 a few months ago also.

Unlicensed progams that have had numerous charges of abuse brought against them, lie to the state about their purpose to avoid oversite, and hand out make believe diplomas probably aren't considered non abusive or a success. Please try again.

Sorry, Bruce, I am not going to bite. If you want to maintain that you spent longer than 3 weeks in a program knock yourself out

The evidence backs me up. You don't actually have any and along with everyone else know you're lying.  :seg:

Any first day reader can see that you have limited experience based on your biased one-sided point of view.

As is yours. My experience is first hand. I spent almost a year under this abusive system. Myself, and every other survivor of this abusive industry will forever have one up on you. Meanwhile your experience not only remains one sided and biased based on your fiduciary interest.

Provide a few examples of programs which are beneficial to the kids that attend them and help the majority of the kids who attend them? Show the readers that you have experienced more than one side of the industry.

While I have always been open and hopeful of the possibility that at least one of these places runs above above board, and isn't abusive, so far none have been shown to exist.
In that same vein, would you be willing to name one program currently running in the United States that isn't running above board, and is abusive? I doubt it. I don't think your contract would allow you to do so.

Do you see what I mean?

Exactly, read in some of the alumni facebook pages or alumni sites. They defend themselves very quickly indeed.

Are you referring to the alumni groups that dont allow disenting opinions? Those sites? Come on Whooter try harder. You claimed that the vast majority of the kids who are locked up in these places benefit from their experience being locked up. Where is this "vast majority" when these places are being shut down one by one?

Again, dont be insulting, Bruce. I never stated that a conversation was a study. The study resides here on fornits in the TTI section. If you continue to be insulting we will postpone the conversation until later.

Then please link to it.

Remember you are going to try to shoot for 30 days without insulting or attacking people.

I don't recall ever agreeing to anything along those lines. I'm actually still waiting on you to clarify what you consider to be "attacking". Once done, I'll consider it. It's all on you buddy. In the meantime the challenge you've been unable to meet is still waiting for you on OFFA. See you there buddy.

[Whooter]

Unlicensed progams that have had numerous charges of abuse brought against them, lie to the state about their purpose to avoid oversite, and hand out make believe diplomas probably aren't considered non abusive or a success. Please try again.

All I'm seeing is you not providing a link.

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[psy]

If a particular child has a history of lying and manipulation then it will be difficult for the parents to believe the child over the program staff.  So when those rare instances occur when a child really does get abused then the parents or other staff members may not believe them.

This is why the child needs to re-establish themselves as “credible” as quickly as they can.  If they continue to lie and manipulate throughout the program they make themselves a bigger target to be taken advantage of in this area.

How in the hell is a parent to know whether what the kid says is a manipulation/lie or not?  There is an easy way to tell.  Parents need to educate themselves and research what has happened at other similar schools (or even the same one) and see if what their kids are saying coincides with what has already been said on the interent by former "students".  If the kids are lying, the stories won't match.  In my experience, however, most of the time they do.  It's the parents who for some reason just never bother to do the research.  They trust the program too much.  The trust the "professionals".

[psy]

Most parents do what they feel is appropriate research or hire an ed consultant prior to placing their child.  If the child ends up in an abusive program then they are pretty much screwed, but for the vast majority of them if they turn around their behavior then they will start seeing their credibility increase and get back on a healthy path.

May I point out that in the vast majority of abusive programs parents see "turn arounds" in their childrens' behaviors.  Just because a program provides temporary "results" doesn't mean they obtain those results ethically or without abusive techniques.  A change in behavior towards a more "healthy path" is not an indication of a good program, in fact it may be an indication of a bad program -- even more so if the change is extreme.

[psy]

Compare this to fornits stories which are striped of anything positive.  Any first time reader will quickly realize there is an agenda to paint the industry as negative.  You dont realize it because you have been here so long ans have learned to accept the negativity.

Sometimes "negativity" as you paint it, is simply the unvarnished truth.  When an organization exists that mistreats kids for profit (or misplaced ideology) there is often very little that's positive.  Hey.  At the program I was in I had one or two positive experiences (mostly with learning to build furniture -- which the program sold at a profit -- for some bizarre reason I liked it), but the rest of it was pretty much universally negative.  One good thing does not outweigh all the bad and when you're giving an overall evaluation of a program it's very easy to forget to mention it.  It's simply not relevant.

[RobertBruce]

Unlicensed progams that have had numerous charges of abuse brought against them, lie to the state about their purpose to avoid oversite, and hand out make believe diplomas probably aren't considered non abusive or a success. Please try again.

All I'm seeing is you not providing a link.

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Can't respond to the other comments? I'm not surprised. Here's something from MASS DOE showing that ASR is not approved as a special education school.

http://http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/profiles/general.aspx?topNavId=8001&orgcode=00690805&orgtypecode=2&leftNavId=8101&

Finding charges of abuse shouldn't be too tough. I'll let you know.

[psy]

Unlicensed progams that have had numerous charges of abuse brought against them, lie to the state about their purpose to avoid oversite, and hand out make believe diplomas probably aren't considered non abusive or a success. Please try again.

All I'm seeing is you not providing a link.

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Can't respond to the other comments? I'm not surprised. Here's something from MASS DOE showing that ASR is not approved as a special education school.

http://http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/profiles/general.aspx?topNavId=8001&orgcode=00690805&orgtypecode=2&leftNavId=8101&

Finding charges of abuse shouldn't be too tough. I'll let you know.

Please put those in the appropriate forum (aspen), with an appropriate thread title and directions to the moderator (suggestion: just allegaions of abuse, commenting in another thread.).

[Whooter]

Most parents do what they feel is appropriate research or hire an ed consultant prior to placing their child.  If the child ends up in an abusive program then they are pretty much screwed, but for the vast majority of them if they turn around their behavior then they will start seeing their credibility increase and get back on a healthy path.

May I point out that in the vast majority of abusive programs parents see "turn arounds" in their childrens' behaviors.  Just because a program provides temporary "results" doesn't mean they obtain those results ethically or without abusive techniques.  A change in behavior towards a more "healthy path" is not an indication of a good program, in fact it may be an indication of a bad program -- even more so if the change is extreme.

Besides getting the word out or having parents talk to other families who have gone through the process I dont see any solid way to prevent kids from being placed in the abusive programs.  Some Ed Cons are unethical and others just dont do enough follow up to see that the child was abused.



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