Author Topic: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Apology)  (Read 17252 times)

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Offline Ursus

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #165 on: November 10, 2010, 10:11:13 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"
Good. And so you also know that troubled teen programs have a history of drawing from thought reform, and that there is a certain probablility of that influence having continued in the TTI to this day. Is that true for you?
Yes, I am familiar with the roots of the industry and those who attended straight and a few others have reason to be suspicious of the programs that exist today but they are vastly different.  But of course they do have many similarities because they have evolved over time like most anything else.
There are so many programs out there that I am sure there are some who use unethical practices.
You don't find it unethical to utilize thought reform practices on adolescents which are based on methods of "re-programming" prisoners of war?
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Offline Awake

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #166 on: November 10, 2010, 10:12:57 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Awake"
Good. And so you also know that troubled teen programs have a history of drawing from thought reform, and that there is a certain probablility of that influence having continued in the TTI to this day. Is that true for you?

.

Yes, I am familiar with the roots of the industry and those who attended straight and a few others have reason to be suspicious of the programs that exist today but they are vastly different.  But of course they do have many similarities because they have evolved over time like most anything else.
There are so many programs out there that I am sure there are some who use unethical practices.



...


That’s right. So I wonder if you also notice the evolution of thought reform methods in troubled teen programs with that of Humanistic methods, like various encounter groups, est, and Lifespring? This would be an innovative area for the TTI to explore new possibilities in thought reform. There's no denying, it has a great influence on how they practice today. Do you know anything about this?

.
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Offline lifeboat

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #167 on: November 10, 2010, 10:15:39 PM »
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Offline heretik

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #168 on: November 10, 2010, 10:17:32 PM »
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31647&start=150

Quote
Whooter wrote:
But that doesnt mean everyone is the same or all programs follow the same path. This is where everyone here gets stuck. Would it be accurate or fair to paint the Public school system as this?:

Whooter, where you get lost is you think posters came here to debate/argue, we did not. There is but one motivation,"to purge" and commiserate.  We have no inclination to entertain any kind of "variance of opinion" with you. Actually no one I can see starts out even wanting to debate with you, really what is happening is the posters find themselves defending what they are exposing here. There personal story comes under attack and they retaliate. Just reading many of your posts here can feel like a "attack" against our vulnerable admissions.

We did not come here to listen to your views on programs that are successful, I am truly pleased there are programs that in your opinion help. I just believe as everyone else here that you picked possibly the wrong venue to rant about it. "We" do not want to hear about a successful program while were pouring our heart out about our abuse that we finally came in touch with, 30 years later for some, earlier for many. Do you really think anybody can handle your constant antagonism while there trying to deal with horrific memories with new friends here.

WTF, Whooter, are you this clueless. These sites are not for a jousters like you. People have already been damaged, how much more do you want to do. Don't turn away Whooter, you are hurting people here. That is a truth.

It is almost blasphemy to keep saying to Anne, Samara, Gonzo, Bruce and others that they are stuck, in denial, stubborn or whatever other characterizations you want to say because they want you to stop your immature posturing here.
Your subject of discussion has never been on the table, ever. We don't care, we do have a right to say this. We do have a right to purge without you intervening with your obnoxious remarks.
Whooter, I am not trying to be mean here, just trying to explain that your actions here have hurt people for the last 5 years and continue too.

As Gonzo, I have not been here long, so I haven't had much interaction with you. I don't have to, I don't want to. I have seen your kind, your here to disrupt whether it is professional or personal it doesn't matter. What matters is the consequences of your actions.

If you had any heart you would stop.
Listen....
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #169 on: November 10, 2010, 10:23:28 PM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Actually, I find this characterization of "troubled teen programs" having a "history of drawing from thought reform" to be the understatement of the century.

ANY and ALL troubled teen programs which use any sort of peer group seminar/rap which utilizes peer-on-peer confrontation and/or criticism as a means of modifying behavior, attitude or thought is based firmly on thought reform principles originally worked out on prisoners of war.

But just because the process can be traced back to procedures used during war time on prisoners of war doesnt mean the process used today is abusive.  

Electric Shock was once used as torture and now is being used to alter bad behavior  (it is still controversial and some consider it torture in JRC).  but it is not the same level as they used during war time.  
They use electric shock to try to improve muscle tone and to stimulate the muscle to increase or regain control over motor functions.
Electric shock is being used to help people lose weight etc.
My point being that there are varying levels of use, not all having to be torturous.

I dont see how Peer on peer confrontation can be considered abusive or brainwashing.  I guess it could be abusive but it doesnt have to be.



...
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Offline Awake

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #170 on: November 10, 2010, 10:24:48 PM »
My apologies, Heretik, but I think you need to show Whooter a bit more sympathy for the way he is acting. Most people here don’t know, but he already did attempt therapy for it, and gave up on himself. Truthfully, it is hard to watch someone in this kind of downward spiral, and I feel for him.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442

 You see, Whooter, when you make a commitment to get well, and you don’t follow through, you are just cheating yourself. I think it this program could have done great things for you. I know it’s hard, but if you had not chosen to run away from your issues you would not still be working so hard, now, to hide from yourself around here.  Be strong, and don’t be slackin on working on your self esteem issues Whooter, seriously. I don’t wan’t to hear excuses, you will get no sympathy from me. You know that viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30684&hilit=self+esteem&start=30

Get rid of the negativity, and self doubt and feel better about yourself, OK?
   

.
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Offline lifeboat

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #171 on: November 10, 2010, 10:30:56 PM »
Was role play during MBA "workshops" used as thought reform Whooter?
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #172 on: November 10, 2010, 10:34:23 PM »
Quote from: "lifeboat"
Was role play during MBA "workshops" used as thought reform Whooter?

I have no idea, I am not familiar with the model that they used.



...
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Offline lifeboat

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #173 on: November 10, 2010, 10:39:04 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "lifeboat"
Was role play during MBA "workshops" used as thought reform Whooter?

I have no idea, I am not familiar with the model that they used.



...

The use a CEDU type model.  MBA was investigated for many things.  One of them being where a girl had to "role play" something sexual in nature.
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Offline Awake

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #174 on: November 10, 2010, 10:46:54 PM »
Quote from: "Awake"
My apologies, Heretik, but I think you need to show Whooter a bit more sympathy for the way he is acting. Most people here don’t know, but he already did attempt therapy for it, and gave up on himself. Truthfully, it is hard to watch someone in this kind of downward spiral, and I feel for him.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29442

 You see, Whooter, when you make a commitment to get well, and you don’t follow through, you are just cheating yourself. I think it this program could have done great things for you. I know it’s hard, but if you had not chosen to run away from your issues you would not still be working so hard, now, to hide from yourself around here.  Be strong, and don’t be slackin on working on your self esteem issues Whooter, seriously. I don’t wan’t to hear excuses, you will get no sympathy from me. You know that viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30684&hilit=self+esteem&start=30

Get rid of the negativity, and self doubt and feel better about yourself, OK?
   

.


…. I almost Forgot! This is important, don’t you think?

DOUBLE BIND: Mind control in the TTI
viewtopic.php?f=81&t=30423

…. I sorta think so.
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Offline psy

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #175 on: November 10, 2010, 10:47:40 PM »
Quote from: "lifeboat"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "lifeboat"
Was role play during MBA "workshops" used as thought reform Whooter?

I have no idea, I am not familiar with the model that they used.



...

The use a CEDU type model.  MBA was investigated for many things.  One of them being where a girl had to "role play" something sexual in nature.
I was in a program (CEDU clone) that used a nearly identical skit to that described by the girl at MBA, down to the French maid outfit.  That particular example could be caused by direct communication between MBA and the program or it could be inherited from CEDU's later revisions to Propheets.  It can't be a coincidence.  As soon as I read that story I knew the girl was telling the truth. If she was telling a lie, it would not have been identical to what I had witnessed.
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Offline Ursus

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #176 on: November 10, 2010, 10:52:27 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Actually, I find this characterization of "troubled teen programs" having a "history of drawing from thought reform" to be the understatement of the century.

ANY and ALL troubled teen programs which use any sort of peer group seminar/rap which utilizes peer-on-peer confrontation and/or criticism as a means of modifying behavior, attitude or thought is based firmly on thought reform principles originally worked out on prisoners of war.
But just because the process can be traced back to procedures used during war time on prisoners of war doesnt mean the process used today is abusive.  

Electric Shock was once used as torture and now is being used to alter bad behavior  (it is still controversial and some consider it torture in JRC).  but it is not the same level as they used during war time.  
They use electric shock to try to improve muscle tone and to stimulate the muscle to increase or regain control over motor functions.
Electric shock is being used to help people lose weight etc.
My point being that there are varying levels of use, not all having to be torturous.

I dont see how Peer on peer confrontation can be considered abusive or brainwashing.  I guess it could be abusive but it doesnt have to be.
Because the process of using a gauntlet of PEERS to modify the behavior, attitude or thoughts of an individual is abusive in and of itself. Do you not see that?

Perhaps you are uniquely immune to such persuasive tactics. I do allow that some folks may be more susceptible to it or more easily injured by it than others.

Re. your analogy of electric shock used at JRC vs. other uses, e.g., "to try to improve muscle tone and to stimulate the muscle to increase or regain control over motor functions," etc.: do NOTE that the examples you cite for comparison are all voluntary choices which the recipient can opt out of at any time. NOT SO for the kids at JRC, and this lack of respect for their autonomy also appears to be a large part of their trauma.
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Offline RobertBruce

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #177 on: November 10, 2010, 11:56:13 PM »
Quote
You are fairly new here, Shady. I take great pleasure in pointing out that Lenny and Squiggy (Bruce and DJ) wasted years of their lives trolling me only to find out they were chasing a ghost. Neither of these guys were abused in a Program. Bruce spent less than a month inside the place, they made him clean up his own mess and he ran away and DJ was staff at HLA until they did a background check and found out he had felony convictions then he had to reinvent himself elsewhere. All is good,no one is getting hurt, no abuse victim is being antagonized.


Whoops. You can always tell when Johnny's on the ropes when the lies start to come out. He has no actual evidence to speak of in regards to his claims, but hey, when has that ever stopped him before? Don't worry Johnny, I'm sure you'll convince someone of something.......somewhere.


Speaking of which, everyone is still waiting to see if you can provide a link to a survivor lying about being abused. We've all been patient with you John, but time really is up. You've come up empty. We all told you that those of us who experienced these programs (not you) have no reason to lie about the abuse, as the truth is always bad enough. You've consistently come up empty and have provided nothing.

The question has been answered: Survivors do not lie. Programmies and those who have a fiduciary interest in them (John Reuben) do.


What's next?
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Offline none-ya

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #178 on: November 11, 2010, 12:58:58 AM »
I cannot  find definition for aplogy
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?©?€~¥@

Offline Ursus

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #179 on: November 11, 2010, 01:15:19 AM »
Quote from: "none-ya"
I cannot  find definition for aplogy
Oh... I think there's just a space missing in there, as in: "a plogy."




Here's a definition from Urban Dictionary:

    1.    Plogy   · 2 up, 2 down
       
    Someone who is not entirly fat but have a bit of body fat around them

    Jennifer : Youn look quite plogy since the last time I saw you.
    Diasy: Well I need to gain some weight I was 7 stone last time; up to 9 now.


    poggy ploggy fat gain weight
    by AndreValenitne · 18 May 11, 2009
    [/list]
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