Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Apology)

[Awake]

[If someone says that all programs brainwash kids then I know this to be inaccurate information.  If they say all kids were abused at a program I know this to be false also.  I know this because I have seen kids who did well.


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So as long as there are at least a few programs out there that don’t brainwash kids we should let  industry in general off the hook? I don’t believe you really think that just because there might be a few unknown exceptions to the rule that people are wrong to want to take up the issue. It is our responsibility as citizens to hold them accountable.


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[Gonzotherapy]

Exactly, It would be great to earn money this way.  But really who would pay me to do this?  Its funny that you mention it because many people here think I get paid to do this.  Now who is mentally challenged?  lol  Do you see what I mean?

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Ummm. I don't know, maybe the billion dollar business that is getting stabbed in the ass by the invention of the internet and availability of information? They might pay someone to attempt to discredit the people who are exposing them. No, that would never happen, just like they wouldn't pay government officials to protect their interests.
http://robertlichfield.blogspot.com/

And for the record, no, I do not see what you mean. At all.

[Whooter]

[If someone says that all programs brainwash kids then I know this to be inaccurate information.  If they say all kids were abused at a program I know this to be false also.  I know this because I have seen kids who did well.


...

So as long as there are at least a few programs out there that don’t brainwash kids we should let  industry in general off the hook? I don’t believe you really think that just because there might be a few unknown exceptions to the rule that people are wrong to want to take up the issue. It is our responsibility as citizens to hold them accountable.


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No, just be honest!  Dont try to bury the good stories/aspects of the industry and dont try to pretend that every kid in every program is getting abused.  Its as phony as the old kidnapping cliche.  I admit that kids get abused in programs.  I take a moderate stance on the industry.  How many people on fornits can say the same thing?  How many can say that some kids do well while others get abused?  
There seems to always be this dominating extremest attitude formulated from a fringe hatred group mentality that prevails here.  Why are people afraid to step out in the open, think for themselves and discuss and welcome survivors who had a good experience and let them share their views equally without fear of being labeled as brainwashed or damaged?
something to think about anyway.....



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[Awake]

[If someone says that all programs brainwash kids then I know this to be inaccurate information.  If they say all kids were abused at a program I know this to be false also.  I know this because I have seen kids who did well.


...

So as long as there are at least a few programs out there that don’t brainwash kids we should let  industry in general off the hook? I don’t believe you really think that just because there might be a few unknown exceptions to the rule that people are wrong to want to take up the issue. It is our responsibility as citizens to hold them accountable.


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No, just be honest!  Dont try to bury the good stories/aspects of the industry and pretend that every kid in every program is getting abused.  Its as phony as the old kidnapping cliche.  I admit that kids get abused in programs.  I take a moderate stance on the industry.  How many people on fornits can say the same thing?  How many can say that some kids do well while others get abused?  
There seems to always be this dominating extremest attitude formulated from a fringe hatred group mentality that prevails here.  Why are people afraid to step out in the open, think for themselves and discuss and welcome survivors who had a good experience and let them share their views equally without fear of being labeled as brainwashed or damaged?
something to think about anyway.....



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Isn’t it possible that some of those good stories are from kids who were under the influence of thought reform (brainwashing)? Is it possible that you think thought reform can be used for the benefit of the teen? Honest question.

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[Whooter]

Exactly, It would be great to earn money this way.  But really who would pay me to do this?  Its funny that you mention it because many people here think I get paid to do this.  Now who is mentally challenged?  lol  Do you see what I mean?

...

Ummm. I don't know, maybe the billion dollar business that is getting stabbed in the ass by the invention of the internet and availability of information? They might pay someone to attempt to discredit the people who are exposing them. No, that would never happen, just like they wouldn't pay government officials to protect their interests.
http://robertlichfield.blogspot.com/

And for the record, no, I do not see what you mean. At all.

But that doesnt mean everyone is the same or all programs follow the same path.  This is where everyone here gets stuck.  Would it be accurate or fair to paint the Public school system as this?:

Picture of you average public school student

Columbine High school

Does this represent the average school experience?



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[Whooter]

Isn’t it possible that some of those good stories are from kids who were under the influence of thought reform (brainwashing)? Is it possible that you think thought reform can be used for the benefit of the teen? Honest question.

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It is possible, but before that is mentioned the program should be looked at for evidence of brainwashing and if they have a model which could sustain the isolation and environment necessary to implement such a thing on a child.

If a kid says that he was abused by the program he was in, isn’t it possible that he is just mad at his parents and the program for sending him there and just wants to strike back in any way that he can to make the program and his parents suffer?  Maybe he would say it didn’t help him even though it did just to make his parents think they wasted all that money and put some hurt on them like the way he feels he was hurt?
I think this is possible also, but negative stories towards the industry are never questioned here, Awake.



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[Awake]

Isn’t it possible that some of those good stories are from kids who were under the influence of thought reform (brainwashing)? Is it possible that you think thought reform can be used for the benefit of the teen? Honest question.

.

It is possible, but before that is mentioned the program should be looked at for evidence of brainwashing and if they have a model which could sustain the isolation and environment necessary to implement such a thing on a child.

If a kid says that he was abused by the program he was in, isn’t it possible that he is just mad at his parents and the program for sending him there and just wants to strike back in any way that he can to make the program and his parents suffer?  Maybe he would say it didn’t help him even though it did just to make his parents think they wasted all that money and put some hurt on them like the way he feels he was hurt?
I think this is possible also, but negative stories towards the industry are never questioned here, Awake.



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So let me get this straight, you will not be honest about your feelings about these programs because other people don’t have the same attitude towards them as you? Why are they accountable for the way you portray yourself?

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[Whooter]

So let me get this straight, you will not be honest about your feelings about these programs because other people don’t have the same attitude towards them as you? Why are they accountable for the way you portray yourself?

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Awake, I dont see how you get that point of view from my post.  I dont change my views based on other peoples view towards me.  I was just giving you a different perspective to think about.



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[Awake]

Isn’t it possible that some of those good stories are from kids who were under the influence of thought reform (brainwashing)? Is it possible that you think thought reform can be used for the benefit of the teen? Honest question.

.

It is possible, but before that is mentioned the program should be looked at for evidence of brainwashing and if they have a model which could sustain the isolation and environment necessary to implement such a thing on a child.

If a kid says that he was abused by the program he was in, isn’t it possible that he is just mad at his parents and the program for sending him there and just wants to strike back in any way that he can to make the program and his parents suffer?  Maybe he would say it didn’t help him even though it did just to make his parents think they wasted all that money and put some hurt on them like the way he feels he was hurt?
I think this is possible also, but negative stories towards the industry are never questioned here, Awake.



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So let me get this straight, you will not be honest about your feelings about these programs because other people don’t have the same attitude towards them as you? Why are they accountable for the way you portray yourself?

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Awake, I dont see how you get that point of view from my post.  I dont change my views based on other peoples view towards me.  I was just giving you a different perspective to think about.


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Well it seems to me, by your statement, that you are saying that the kids are either being brainwashed, or just saying it to get back at their parents. Since no one else here seems to be supporting the latter position, you are obligating yourself to take the role of ‘devils advocate’.  Right?

[Whooter]

[


Well it seems to me, by your statement, that you are saying that the kids are either being brainwashed, or just saying it to get back at their parents. Since no one else here seems to be supporting the latter position, you are obligating yourself to take the role of ‘devils advocate’.  Right?

What I mean is that if a kid says he did well in a program why label him as brainwashed?  We dont know if he was brainwashed or not.

Its the same as saying ever kid who says he was abused is saying it to get back at his parents.  We dont know that either, maybe the kid was abused.

Either statement can be true but doesn't necessarily have to be.



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[Awake]

I hear what you are saying Whooter, so I see this as a pertinent question. Do you feel thought reform is acceptable for use as therapy for troubled teens?



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[Whooter]

I hear what you are saying Whooter, so I see this as a pertinent question. Do you feel thought reform is acceptable for use as therapy for troubled teens?



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No, of course not.  Its very dangerous and I believe unethical and illegal.



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[Awake]

I hear what you are saying Whooter, so I see this as a pertinent question. Do you feel thought reform is acceptable for use as therapy for troubled teens?



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No, of course not.  Its very dangerous and I believe unethical and illegal.



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Good. And so you also know that troubled teen programs have a history of drawing from thought reform, and that there is a certain probablility of that influence having continued in the TTI to this day. Is that true for you?

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[Whooter]

Good. And so you also know that troubled teen programs have a history of drawing from thought reform, and that there is a certain probablility of that influence having continued in the TTI to this day. Is that true for you?

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Yes, I am familiar with the roots of the industry and those who attended straight and a few others have reason to be suspicious of the programs that exist today but they are vastly different.  But of course they do have many similarities because they have evolved over time like most anything else.
There are so many programs out there that I am sure there are some who use unethical practices.



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[Ursus]

I hear what you are saying Whooter, so I see this as a pertinent question. Do you feel thought reform is acceptable for use as therapy for troubled teens?

No, of course not.  Its very dangerous and I believe unethical and illegal.

Good. And so you also know that troubled teen programs have a history of drawing from thought reform, and that there is a certain probablility of that influence having continued in the TTI to this day. Is that true for you?

Actually, I find this characterization of "troubled teen programs" having a "history of drawing from thought reform" to be the understatement of the century.

ANY and ALL troubled teen programs which use any sort of peer group seminar/rap which utilizes peer-on-peer confrontation and/or criticism as a means of modifying behavior, attitude or thought are based firmly on thought reform principles originally worked out on prisoners of war.