Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Apology)

[RobertBruce]

You're still coming up empty Whooter. I'm not sure if you're being obtuse on purpose, or if you truly don't understand.

All you're linking to is someone else making a vauge reference saying random non specific people are lying about non specific things.

What I'm looking for is a specific post from a specific survivor claiming abuse that you can prove to be a lie. Again, with literally thousands to chose from one I would think you could come up with at least one.

[Whooter]

Again, with literally thousands to chose from one I would think you could come up with at least one.

I dont think survivors lie as much as you think, Bruce, you should give them a little credit.  I havent found thousands of them, but I have found a lot.  Here is another one.  Notice I provided a link:

Link
My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.



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[RobertBruce]

Now you're understanding. Great we can move forward.

My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.

This is not a lie Whooter. We discussed the kidnapping issue at length, and under your standards using the term 'kidnapped' is not a lie or even an exaggeration.

What else have you got?

[Whooter]

What else have you got?

There are alot more than you thought.  I was surprised too at the responses we found.  Like you mentioned earlier, Bruce, the forum is filled with them.

Gonzotherapy concluded with:

Fabrications are completely unnecessary, so the survivors out there please be straight shooters, the lies are only going to help the real criminals get away with their crimes.



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[RobertBruce]

Nope, now you're moving backward. You need to find specific posts from specific posters talking about events that happened to them, that were then later proven to be lies. Not generalizations Whooter, specific comments.

So far you're 0-2.


As for this:

There are alot more than you thought. I was surprised too at the responses we found. Like you mentioned earlier, Bruce, the forum is filled with them.

The forum is filled with what Whooter?

[Whooter]

Link
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.



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[psy]

You've got literally thousands of posts to pull from and you can't find one.

Actually, it's more like hundreds of thousands.

Let me dumb it down a bit for you, here's what I'm looking for:

A post made by a survivor told in the 1st person about an experience claiming to be abused, only to later be shown to be a lie. All you keep doing is posting references to lies, but no specifics. I would have thought as much as your prattle on about this you would have at least one smoking gun.

Let me know what you come up with.

He'll come up with statements of hyperbole and evaluative opinion like "kidnapping"and present them as false statements of fact, and he'll quote people like Gonzotherapy completely out of context to the point where it more or less changes the meaning.  He'll also likely quote some fake survivor's account of the program and how wonderful it is.

He undersands evaluative opinion, or should, and yet continues to call kidnapping a lie.  Nobody is arguing that

Here's what Whooter does:  If I were to go on a long discussion about brainwashing and end it off with "i was raped" where it was clear I was referring to brainwashing by surrounding context, as has been done elsewhere on the forum, he would cut that one statement out of context, call it a lie (when it would be evaluative opinion), and parade it around the forum as an example of how survivors lie. Now we all know that his twisting of other people's words is completely intentional but that's impossible to prove as you'd have to show his state of mind.

Whooter wrote

I see what you are trying to say, psy, But I don’t agree that kidnapping can just be a matter of opinion. If we accepted this then how would we standardize and understand description from survivors here?

The use of the word "Kidnapping" is not meant to deceive and you know it.  In context it's clearly descriptive of an escort service, even to people reading here for the first time.  It's opinion, not fact, it's a descriptive label, not a legal term.  The fact that a person says "I was kidnapped and brought to a program" makes it VERY clear that this was done with parental consent and the word kidnapping refers to what you call an escort service. Which in my view, is less accurate term to describe what they do.  "Escort" implies something voluntary.  Likewise with "transport service" which makes it seem as if a package is being shipped.  Big burly men bursting into a room at night, putting teens in restraints, dragging them out the door to the car and driving them across state lines sounds a lot more like kidnapping to me than it does "escorting" or "transporting".

They could just as easily say making their bed in the morning was abuse and torture or that being forced to go to school was brainwashing. They could justify their words by saying it felt like torture or abuse or brainwashing

First: if they did it would be clear it was hyperbole/evaluative opinion and not a lie.  "This music is torture" for example, is not meant to be taken literally.

Secondly: to my knowledge, nobody has ever tried to pass making their bed or going to school in a program as torture. You are intentionally trivializing and obfuscating very real and very severe incidents of abuse by making it sound like survivors are whiny, spoilt, brats who exaggerate habitually.  Like Frederick and others noted.  Nobody has to exaggerate and if anything, they sometimes leave the worst bits out for fear they won't be believed.

[Lon Woodbury molests]

Its all too indicative of the deceit of John David Reuben (whooter's real life rumored person hood) and /or the members of the Aspen Education Group that they use euphemisms to hide that they kidnap their victims, like this:

http://www.westpacific.us/?p=717

That's kidnap. Doesn't matter if the state turns a blind eye to it, or if you criminal pedophiles like Lon Woodbury and Rudy Bentz call it "escort."

The Nazis used euphemism to hide that they murdered their victims, like this:
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/holocaust.htm

That's murder. Doesn't matter that the state turned a blind eye to it, or that the criminal racists called it the "final solution."

You, and your ilk, John, kidnap, imprison, torture, and murder human beings.

That's no hyperbole, no exaggeration, no euphemism. Just the truth.

[RobertBruce]

Link
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.



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Still not a lie Whooter. You keep going backwards. Can't you find a single example of a lie told by a survivor claiming to be abused? You've gone and on about this for so long, I thought you had some sort of evidence to support your claim.

[Whooter]

They could just as easily say making their bed in the morning was abuse and torture or that being forced to go to school was brainwashing. They could justify their words by saying it felt like torture or abuse or brainwashing

First: if they did it would be clear it was hyperbole/evaluative opinion and not a lie.  "This music is torture" for example, is not meant to be taken literally.

Secondly: to my knowledge, nobody has ever tried to pass making their bed or going to school in a program as torture. You are intentionally trivializing and obfuscating very real and very severe incidents of abuse by making it sound like survivors are whiny, spoilt, brats who exaggerate habitually.  Like Frederick and others noted.  Nobody has to exaggerate and if anything, they sometimes leave the worst bits out for fear they won't be believed.

I think you are trying to do damage control here Psy.  If someone says they were kidnapped and abused in the same story we know we have to treat the subject of abuse the same way we treat the subject of kidnapping.  They are not to be treated as literal definitions but rather they would be opinions.  We could not assume that the word abuse is spoke in the legal sense.  It needs to be understood the same as the kidnapping is... an opinion.

This music is torture,  This food was down right abusive, I felt isolated from my friends, etc. non of these are literal I agree.  But if you read here on fornits there are some people who think that the posters was really abused (in the legal sense) when this isnt true or at very best unclear either way based on the use of kidnapping, Gulag etc. which are not to be taken literally.

I feel that survivors do themselves a disservice because there are kids who really are abused and if their stories are lumped together with the stories of kidnappings then their abuse will fall on deaf ears or at best treated lightly.



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[RobertBruce]

I think you are trying to do damage control here Psy. If someone says they were kidnapped and abused in the same story we know we have to treat the subject of abuse the same way we treat the subject of kidnapping. They are not to be treated as literal definitions but rather they would be opinions. We could not assume that the word abuse is spoke in the legal sense. It needs to be understood the same as the kidnapping is... an opinion.

Again, according to your own standards a term need not fit the legal definition in order to be used. It was only a few years ago you were up in arms over the statement that ASR is not a school due to the fact that they didnt hand out diplomas, credits aren't transferable, and they aren't considered a school by Mass or Federal DOE's. It didn't meet the legal definition of a school, despite that you stomped your feet and insisted because it met the dictionary's definition it was in fact a school. You refused to accept the difference between a legal definition, and what is found in a dictionary.

This is no different. Kidnapping as it is described on here fits the dictionary definition, therefore these kids are not lying or exaggerating. You cannot have it both ways Whooter.

That being the case you are still empty on coming up with a single example of a survivor lying about being abused.

[Lon Woodbury molests]

They could just as easily say making their bed in the morning was abuse and torture or that being forced to go to school was brainwashing. They could justify their words by saying it felt like torture or abuse or brainwashing

First: if they did it would be clear it was hyperbole/evaluative opinion and not a lie.  "This music is torture" for example, is not meant to be taken literally.

Secondly: to my knowledge, nobody has ever tried to pass making their bed or going to school in a program as torture. You are intentionally trivializing and obfuscating very real and very severe incidents of abuse by making it sound like survivors are whiny, spoilt, brats who exaggerate habitually.  Like Frederick and others noted.  Nobody has to exaggerate and if anything, they sometimes leave the worst bits out for fear they won't be believed.

I think you are trying to do damage control here Psy.  If someone says they were kidnapped and abused in the same story we know we have to treat the subject of abuse the same way we treat the subject of kidnapping.  They are not to be treated as literal definitions but rather they would be opinions.  We could not assume that the word abuse is spoke in the legal sense.  It needs to be understood the same as the kidnapping is... an opinion.

This music is torture,  This food was down right abusive, I felt isolated from my friends, etc. non of these are literal I agree.  But if you read here on fornits there are some people who think that the posters was really abused (in the legal sense) when this isnt true or at very best unclear either way based on the use of kidnapping, Gulag etc. which are not to be taken literally.

I feel that survivors do themselves a disservice because there are kids who really are abused and if their stories are lumped together with the stories of kidnappings then their abuse will fall on deaf ears or at best treated lightly.



...

Don't you hate when the escaping Jews of Nazi Germany said they were being murdered in gulags and killing centers? They weren't in gulags or killing centers. They were rehabilitative work facilities in the legal sense of Nazi Germany. They were being "final solution-ed" not murdered in the legal sense during Nazi Germany. Don't they do a disservice to real victims of murder when they describe their families as Nazi murder victims? After all, Jews weren't murdered int he legal sense during Nazi German. Saying otherwise is a disservice to the "real victims" of murder. Neither Jews nor teens are actual human beings in their respective corrupt countries and as such, we must accept their subhuman nature, and the right of exploitative organizations to kidnap and imprison them, as long as their is some possible rationale to say what's being done to them is legal.

(BTW individuals have been prosecuted or otherwise judicially censured for having their kids kidnapped, and "programs"  (i.e. cultic torture prisons of ritual sexual abuse like Mount Bachelor Academy of the aspen education group cult) have been successfully sued for kidnapping and false imprisonment. And we're just gettin started.)

[Whooter]

This is no different. Kidnapping as it is described on here fits the dictionary definition, therefore these kids are not lying or exaggerating. You cannot have it both ways Whooter.

That being the case you are still empty on coming up with a single example of a survivor lying about being abused.

Most people disagree with you, Bruce,  Gonzotherapy feels otherwise:

 I dont see this as misleading at all when Gonzo stated:

First of all, there are definitely lies and fabrications by some people about the level of abuse and exactly what happened during their incarcerations. I have seen some posts on another topic that I witnessed personally, and the story was complete B.S.

Link



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[Lon Woodbury molests]

I think you are trying to do damage control here Psy. If someone says they were kidnapped and abused in the same story we know we have to treat the subject of abuse the same way we treat the subject of kidnapping. They are not to be treated as literal definitions but rather they would be opinions. We could not assume that the word abuse is spoke in the legal sense. It needs to be understood the same as the kidnapping is... an opinion.

Again, according to your own standards a term need not fit the legal definition in order to be used. It was only a few years ago you were up in arms over the statement that ASR is not a school due to the fact that they didnt hand out diplomas, credits aren't transferable, and they aren't considered a school by Mass or Federal DOE's. It didn't meet the legal definition of a school, despite that you stomped your feet and insisted because it met the dictionary's definition it was in fact a school. You refused to accept the difference between a legal definition, and what is found in a dictionary.

This is no different. Kidnapping as it is described on here fits the dictionary definition, therefore these kids are not lying or exaggerating. You cannot have it both ways Whooter.

That being the case you are still empty on coming up with a single example of a survivor lying about being abused.

i disagree that the kidnapping of teens by Mitt Romeny 's Bain Capital 's Aspen Education Group Cult, et al, fails to meet the legal definition of kidnap. The problem is that the feds are disinterested in enforcing the law on behalf of teens. Similarly, lynching always met the definition of murder, but the feds were disinterested in enforcing the law on behalf of black. Teens = the new niggers.

[RobertBruce]

Well let's let Gonzo speak for himself instead of having you attempt to take his comments out of context.

While we're waiting on that I'm still waiting on a single post from you that backs up your claim. One single post Whooter, you've been going on about for years, can't you find just one proven lie?

A post from a survivor talking about a 1st hand experience claiming to have been abused, which was then later proven to be a lie.