Cataloging TheWho/John Reuben's Lies

[Whooter]

Anyway...Just for the record, I have, and have had, one and only one login/username for my entire time on Fornits.

The difference is I have had my anon posts strung together and tied to my user name and the names I have posted under listed out onto the forum.  For some reason you are afraid to have this done.  We just have to go with your word which I have proven in the past that you fabricate stories and timelines to meet the present discussion.

It not a big deal DJ, most people dont revel their user name(s) or have had their anon post strung together.  I did it to show that I have nothing to hide and stand behind my posts.  Why you dont want to have it done is your own business, I dont really care either way.

lol



...

[SUCK IT]

Whooter/TheWho/Sarah Palin/Al Gore/SUCK IT/John McCain/Mitt Romney/Robert Bruces/etc, etc, etc

I'm not Whooter and never claimed to be. So that means you must have concluded this yourself based on non existent evidence, obviously, because it's not true. So that must mean you are paranoid and delusional, or just plain retarded. Perhaps a combination of both, we will have to let the audience decide which is true. If you are really interested in who I am and why I post here, I'll tell you. I am a so called "survivor", meaning I am one of the tens or possibly hundreds of thousands of people who were sent to an adolescent treatment center when I was younger. I was sent to a facility that is described on this forum as abusive, and is commonly discussed. I came here to this forum with an interest in the discussion, but what I quickly found was a cult of extremists only interested in producing and disseminating anti treatment propaganda.

To my surprise, the only person who is willing to have an open minded conversation is the one poster who the extremists label as evil, and do their best to shut down at every chance. Including bullying and threats in real life, that poster is of course Whooter. Just because I have similar views to Whooter doesn't mean I am actually Whooter. I believe that free market adolescent treatment industry is a good thing overall, and while there might be isolated problems they are usually dealt with and prevented from becoming a regular problem. I know that very few people post here compared to the amount of kids who went through treatment, a ridiculously low number of people actually. The people I am still in contact to from treatment laugh at this forum and the people here. I was not abused and I never saw abuse, although if I wanted to embellish and lie I could present a story that would appear to make it a negative experience, and this is what the posters here do. They have an agenda and choose to omit details to further their anti treatment agenda. The extremists here don't just stop at adolescent treatment centers, they want to shut down alcoholics anonymous as well. This is a joke and most sane people realize this immediately.

Most of the extremists on fornits say they found this forum decades after they were in treatment, and somehow only after communing with the cult of extremists on fornits they finally have a realization that they were abused, I find that argument to be one hundred percent bullshit. I was pissed off during it and when I got out, because being in treatment when you are a rebellious and troubled teenager is not fun. I was never brainwashed and didn't even graduate because I didn't try that hard. But after some years of observing the ridiculous arguments on fornits, and maturing and thinking over this issue I have realized my parents made the right decision and they were right for seeking outside help.

Whooter is not an extremist. He openly states that some kids have negative experiences but most have positive experiences. This is the truth, and I know it's the truth. I even argued with Whooter at one time, until I finally realized he was right and I was wrong. I was trying to turn a complicated situation into a black and white, good vs evil argument when it's really more complicated than that. The simplistic extremist argument here is held up with innuendo, mistruths, ommission and the most effective is generalizing isolated incidents and claiming they happen to every teen in treatment. Over time I realized Whooter was right and I could no longer honestly make the anti treatment argument I was attempting to make. The hard truth is my parents were completely right to seek help even if I didn't recognize I needed it at the time. It sounds cliche in this industry but I really would have been in jail, dead or insane had I not been forced into treatment.

 I also struggled with substance abuse and have had a very positive experience with AA and related programs as an adult, the lies about AA and the baseless arguments and lies perpetuated against this voluntary association of adults is ridiculous and further discredits the extremism that is prevalent on this forum. Fornits really has become a den of extremists, so to this core group I can see why Whooter appears so evil. In reality Whooter is completely normal, his views 100% mainstream. Eventually he will get bored and stop posting here, and the cult can take over and create posts that simply reinforce their beliefs, but until then I hope Whooter continues to present his common sense advice to parents here and answers the extremists arguments with rational arguments that quickly point out the flaws in the extremist argument. He is quite good at this, but to be honest it's not that difficult to do this. What is difficult is putting up the abuse he goes through to simply post this common sense, he has been threatened with real life consequences for posting here, I find that extremely distasteful.

I personally find the extremism here and the people who post it to be even more aggressive and controlling than the people they claim to b fighting against. Even though I disagree with Whooter on some topics, I'd much rather sit down and have a beer with him than any other person on this forum because he's willing to be honest about this industry, instead of having an akward conversation with an extremists, trying not to say the wrong thing and possibly slip up and, heaven forbid, actually say that programs have a positive effect in one way or another.

So you can continue to spend your holiday weekend fighting with Whooter if you want, nobody is going to stop you. But it's not going to help any teen being "abused" in a program, and the truth is the only people who will read it and understand it is people already involved in fornits debate. This stuff is inside baseball, and nobody cares about it other than the people who are involved in the argument. If I were you I'd take a long look at what compels you to become so emotionally involved with an anonymous internet poster you know nothing about. Lacking real information about your opponent, you simply make up conspiracy theories about who they are and why the post here. I am here to tell you that your conspiracy theory is flawed, I am not Whooter and your assumption that I am whooter says a lot about the reality shifting than extremists must engage in to keep their delusions afloat. Have a good holiday< i think that's enough from me for now.

[DannyB II]

Whooter/TheWho/Sarah Palin/Al Gore/SUCK IT/John McCain/Mitt Romney/Robert Bruces/etc, etc, etc

I'm not Whooter and never claimed to be. So that means you must have concluded this yourself based on non existent evidence, obviously, because it's not true. So that must mean you are paranoid and delusional, or just plain retarded. Perhaps a combination of both, we will have to let the audience decide which is true. If you are really interested in who I am and why I post here, I'll tell you. I am a so called "survivor", meaning I am one of the tens or possibly hundreds of thousands of people who were sent to an adolescent treatment center when I was younger. I was sent to a facility that is described on this forum as abusive, and is commonly discussed. I came here to this forum with an interest in the discussion, but what I quickly found was a cult of extremists only interested in producing and disseminating anti treatment propaganda.

To my surprise, the only person who is willing to have an open minded conversation is the one poster who the extremists label as evil, and do their best to shut down at every chance. Including bullying and threats in real life, that poster is of course Whooter. Just because I have similar views to Whooter doesn't mean I am actually Whooter. I believe that free market adolescent treatment industry is a good thing overall, and while there might be isolated problems they are usually dealt with and prevented from becoming a regular problem. I know that very few people post here compared to the amount of kids who went through treatment, a ridiculously low number of people actually. The people I am still in contact to from treatment laugh at this forum and the people here. I was not abused and I never saw abuse, although if I wanted to embellish and lie I could present a story that would appear to make it a negative experience, and this is what the posters here do. They have an agenda and choose to omit details to further their anti treatment agenda. The extremists here don't just stop at adolescent treatment centers, they want to shut down alcoholics anonymous as well. This is a joke and most sane people realize this immediately.

Most of the extremists on fornits say they found this forum decades after they were in treatment, and somehow only after communing with the cult of extremists on fornits they finally have a realization that they were abused, I find that argument to be one hundred percent bullshit. I was pissed off during it and when I got out, because being in treatment when you are a rebellious and troubled teenager is not fun. I was never brainwashed and didn't even graduate because I didn't try that hard. But after some years of observing the ridiculous arguments on fornits, and maturing and thinking over this issue I have realized my parents made the right decision and they were right for seeking outside help.

Whooter is not an extremist. He openly states that some kids have negative experiences but most have positive experiences. This is the truth, and I know it's the truth. I even argued with Whooter at one time, until I finally realized he was right and I was wrong. I was trying to turn a complicated situation into a black and white, good vs evil argument when it's really more complicated than that. The simplistic extremist argument here is held up with innuendo, mistruths, ommission and the most effective is generalizing isolated incidents and claiming they happen to every teen in treatment. Over time I realized Whooter was right and I could no longer honestly make the anti treatment argument I was attempting to make. The hard truth is my parents were completely right to seek help even if I didn't recognize I needed it at the time. It sounds cliche in this industry but I really would have been in jail, dead or insane had I not been forced into treatment.

 I also struggled with substance abuse and have had a very positive experience with AA and related programs as an adult, the lies about AA and the baseless arguments and lies perpetuated against this voluntary association of adults is ridiculous and further discredits the extremism that is prevalent on this forum. Fornits really has become a den of extremists, so to this core group I can see why Whooter appears so evil. In reality Whooter is completely normal, his views 100% mainstream. Eventually he will get bored and stop posting here, and the cult can take over and create posts that simply reinforce their beliefs, but until then I hope Whooter continues to present his common sense advice to parents here and answers the extremists arguments with rational arguments that quickly point out the flaws in the extremist argument. He is quite good at this, but to be honest it's not that difficult to do this. What is difficult is putting up the abuse he goes through to simply post this common sense, he has been threatened with real life consequences for posting here, I find that extremely distasteful.

I personally find the extremism here and the people who post it to be even more aggressive and controlling than the people they claim to b fighting against. Even though I disagree with Whooter on some topics, I'd much rather sit down and have a beer with him than any other person on this forum because he's willing to be honest about this industry, instead of having an akward conversation with an extremists, trying not to say the wrong thing and possibly slip up and, heaven forbid, actually say that programs have a positive effect in one way or another.

So you can continue to spend your holiday weekend fighting with Whooter if you want, nobody is going to stop you. But it's not going to help any teen being "abused" in a program, and the truth is the only people who will read it and understand it is people already involved in fornits debate. This stuff is inside baseball, and nobody cares about it other than the people who are involved in the argument. If I were you I'd take a long look at what compels you to become so emotionally involved with an anonymous internet poster you know nothing about. Lacking real information about your opponent, you simply make up conspiracy theories about who they are and why the post here. I am here to tell you that your conspiracy theory is flawed, I am not Whooter and your assumption that I am whooter says a lot about the reality shifting than extremists must engage in to keep their delusions afloat. Have a good holiday< i think that's enough from me for now.

Amen.......

[Ursus]

I am a so called "survivor", meaning I am one of the tens or possibly hundreds of thousands of people who were sent to an adolescent treatment center when I was younger. I was sent to a facility that is described on this forum as abusive, and is commonly discussed. I came here to this forum with an interest in the discussion, but what I quickly found was a cult of extremists only interested in producing and disseminating anti treatment propaganda.

Riiiiighttt. And which program would that be? What you aver is simply not all that believable. You have never ventured to describe any program on fornits in anything other than the most general and non-specific terms. Even program parents and EdCons are able to be more specific than you.

While some posters might choose to be vague when first dealing with traumatic events and issues stemming from their time in program, that doesn't appear to be the case for you. You claim not to have been abused.

The simplistic extremist argument here is held up with innuendo, mistruths, ommission and the most effective is generalizing isolated incidents and claiming they happen to every teen in treatment.

Link, or it never happened. To my knowledge, nobody here has ever ventured that all kids get subjected to all the abuses this industry dishes out. If that were the case, there would be claims of a 100% mortality rate. Lols. Seems to me that you are the one holding up "simplistic extremist arguments with innuendo," untruths, omissions and whitewashing generalizations.  

[Troll Control]

Another option is to ask fornits admins to list out our user names (and string together past anon posts)and post them publicly. I have done this upon request a few times before and am willing to do it again, if it interests you (I have nothing to hide).

Why, yes, it does interest me.  Please have it done right away, as you just offered to do.  I'll be glad to see the results straight away.

[SUCK IT]

I am a so called "survivor", meaning I am one of the tens or possibly hundreds of thousands of people who were sent to an adolescent treatment center when I was younger. I was sent to a facility that is described on this forum as abusive, and is commonly discussed. I came here to this forum with an interest in the discussion, but what I quickly found was a cult of extremists only interested in producing and disseminating anti treatment propaganda.

Riiiiighttt. And which program would that be? What you aver is simply not believable. You have never ventured to describe any program on fornits in anything other than the most general and non-specific terms. Even program parents and EdCons are able to be more specific than you.

The simplistic extremist argument here is held up with innuendo, mistruths, ommission and the most effective is generalizing isolated incidents and claiming they happen to every teen in treatment.

Link, or it never happened. Nobody here has ever ventured that all kids get subjected to all the abuses this industry dishes out. If that were the case, there would be claims of a 100% mortality rate. Seems to me that you are the one holding up "simplistic extremist arguments with innuendo," untruths, omissions and whitewashing generalizations.  

I went to a program that has it's own subforum here, and I'll leave it at that. If you don't want to believe me, that's up to you, it doesn't bother me in the least. I do not get angry that you disagree with me, like the extremists here do when whooter posts. I will not claim you are brainwashed since you hold different views, unlike the extremists here do to people like me. I can understand why a person that had a bad experience themselves wishes to tell the world about it, but I am also going to be here to remind people that these types of negative stories are in the minority. Just take a look at the numbers of people posting here if you want proof.

Link or it never happened you say, the typical fornits double standard. I don't have the time and frankly don't feel like digging through a mountain of old posts to show the number of posts from posters here claiming all programs need to be shut. But had I come claiming I was horribly abused, no matter how extraordinary it might sound, I doubt you would be questioning whether I was lying, and asking for links and proof. This is a double standard, you find it hard to believe that I am in the majority of experiences but this is a fact. Standard treatment procedures are considered abusive on this forum by  the extremists, therefore in order to end the "abuse" the only logical solution would be to shut all programs. This argument is made countless times here by the same people. You know this is true, but you want to make it appear you hold the middle ground argument. The fact is the middle ground argument belongs to Whooter, while the anti treatment protesters fall in the realm of extremism by any definition, of which you seem to be included. Why else would me simply stating my opinion illicit such a quick attempt at discretization?

The problem with the extremist argument here is it's unable to even entertain the possibility that an experience like mine is even possible. The fact is it's not only possible, in fact it is common. Instead of disagreeing with people like me, you choose to claim that it is made up, all lies, and not believable. I choose to believe everything everyone says on this website, what other choice do I have? What I disagree is what conclusions are drawn from this information. Negative stories are sad, but they are in the very slim minority, so much so I do not believe they justify a government takeover or shut down of the free market adolescent treatment industry. You had a horrible time in programs? I believe you. You had a wonderful time, it saved your life? I believe you. What makes it so difficult for a fornits exremist to acknowledge the simple fact that not everybody is abused in a treatment program, and some people are even thankful for the experience and know it saved their life.  To the poster here this argument represents nothing other than lies, or brainwashing which basically means the same thing, that it's not true and we are claiming things that are not true and were pressured into us by others.  I have had a long time to come to my conclusions and just because they are dangerous to the delusions of certain extremists does not make them untrue.

I wish the people here would accept the positive experiences just as they accept the negative stories. You could still maintain your argument that one kid being harmed is too many, and we should throw the baby out with the bathwater and ignore the huge majority of kids who are helped rather than harmed. This would be an honest argument to make. Instead you dismiss the positive, focus in on the negative and take it from there. That's dishonest extremist, plain and simple.

[Whooter]

Another option is to ask fornits admins to list out our user names (and string together past anon posts)and post them publicly. I have done this upon request a few times before and am willing to do it again, if it interests you (I have nothing to hide).

Why, yes, it does interest me.  Please have it done right away, as you just offered to do.  I'll be glad to see the results straight away.

So since I have had it done a few times previous I dont think you would have a problem getting it done for yourself for once?  Do you have anything to hide?  

I am guessing you wont do it because you ran off the last few times we had this conversation.  I had my posts done and then you ran off when it was your turn.  Let us know...., no big deal if you decline.  We will just have to take your word that you have advanced degrees eeerrr.. I mean only one user name and no anon posts.



...

[Troll Control]

Riiiiighttt. And which program would that be? What you aver is simply not all that believable. You have never ventured to describe any program on fornits in anything other than the most general and non-specific terms. Even program parents and EdCons are able to be more specific than you.

Link

I'm reading a lot of BULLSHIT in this forum. WWASPS is the best thing that ever happened, Stop lying you idiots!!

It appears to be a WWASPS program, but a quick read through SUCK ITs posts seems to reveal a very familiar style and format.  Of 111 posts, 30 say "Whooter is great" in some verbiage or other.

Remember, we won't have to guess soon because Whooter just said he will have his usernames and anon posts strung together a few posts back.  We'll see "Who's Who" as soon as it's done.  If Whooter were actually honest about his logins this wouldn't be necessary, but he continues to hide his multiple identities he's already admitting to using.  Anywway, we'll see soon when Whooter does what he promised to do.  I have a feeling he'll cop out though.

[SUCK IT]

Riiiiighttt. And which program would that be? What you aver is simply not all that believable. You have never ventured to describe any program on fornits in anything other than the most general and non-specific terms. Even program parents and EdCons are able to be more specific than you.

Link

I'm reading a lot of BULLSHIT in this forum. WWASPS is the best thing that ever happened, Stop lying you idiots!!

It appears to be a WWASPS program, but a quick read through SUCK ITs posts seems to reveal a very familiar style and format.  Of 111 posts, 30 say "Whooter is great" in some verbiage or other.

Remember, we won't have to guess soon because Whooter just said he will have his usernames and anon posts strung together a few posts back.  We'll see "Who's Who" as soon as it's done.  If Whooter were actually honest about his logins this wouldn't be necessary, but he continues to hide his multiple identities he's already admitting to using.  Anywway, we'll see soon when Whooter does what he promised to do.  I have a feeling he'll cop out though.

Just think how easier it would be to accept that I am an individual with a different view than yours. No more mental hurdles, conspiracy theories and research attempting to find the non existent smoking gun where you prove I really am Whooter. I'll give you a hint, you're wasting your time. i am not Whooter, although I do find his honesty on this site refreshing and have said this before.

[Whooter]

Dysfunction Junction, take a look at one of your previous posts.  You posted the following:

Link to DJ's post

Re: Is ASR a good program?
Sent: Fri Jun 06, 2007 1:07 pm
From: TheWho
To: Concerned Parent
..........................

June 6th 2007 was a Wednesday (your fabricated post says it is a Friday)  which showed you just made this post up out of thin air.  Thewho could not have possibly sent this.  The next time you write something with another person’s name on it try to get the dates right.  Are you sure you want to stick with the story that you have advanced degrees? lol



...

[Troll Control]

Dysfunction Junction, take a look at one of your previous posts.  You posted the following:

Link to DJ's post

Re: Is ASR a good program?
Sent: Fri Jun 06, 2007 1:07 pm
From: TheWho
To: Concerned Parent
..........................

June 6th 2007 was a Wednesday (your fabricated post says it is a Friday)  which showed you just made this post up out of thin air.  Thewho could not have possibly sent this.  The next time you write something with another person’s name on it try to get the dates right.  Are you sure you want to stick with the story that you have advanced degrees? lol



...

Here's the actual post.  Clearly I was just quoting the guest, whom you referred to multiple times as "Bruce" in your replies.   Nice copy/paste job.  I wonder why you didn't include the full post?  :seg:  :waaaa:

Well, you didn't say over and over you went to Chicago.  In fact, you denied it vehemently and demands "proof" that you did.  You demanded I link a Chicago IP address to TheWho's postings from that period, but why should I?  You forgot you lied about this and had already posted in January 2007 that you went to Chicago the month before.  Why did you lie about your trip to Chicago?

{link to source}  TheWho claiming to have met in Chicago

You also were denying you had an extensive arrest record, apparently forgetting you had already admitted to being "arrested several times in Boston" and once in Michigan.  Why did you lie about your criminal past?

{link to source}TheWho admitting to his arrest record for "multiple arrests"

You also deny you are John Reuben, but you PMed me with your email address when you thought I was interested in sending my kid to ASR.  And that email address is one and the same with the Administrator email address for savingteens.org.  So you were caught in yet another lie.  Why did you lie about your identity?

You may have emailed John Reuben but where is your proof that you emailed me? See what I am saying?

No, you PMed me with the email address later to be proven to be John Reuben's

Re: Is ASR a good program?
Sent: Fri Jun 06, 2007 1:07 pm
From: TheWho
To: Concerned Parent

Personally I think ASR is a good program.  It worked for our family.  My kid was there

when Dave Marcus wrote his book based on the kids in the program and they got back on

track and matured.  I have been to the campus many times and think if it's a good fit

for your son that you shouldn't worry about it.  Don't trust what you read on this site

because the members here are all anti-program and have an agenda to discredit all

programs.  If you want to contact me outside fornits I can help you get in contact with

someone who can help you make the right decision.  You can email me at

onekidatatime@yahoo.com.  Good luck and I hope it all works out for you.

You also say you are just a parent with no ties to the TTI industry, but yet you attended a meeting in Chicago with a group of other TTI players in order to try to make statistical proof that programs are safe and effective and bragged about your meeting here while logged in with the username "TheWho."  Later you denied you are part of the industry and that you went to Chicago at all which are both proven lies.  Why did you lie about your role in the TTI?

{link to source}  What players? where was the meeting and when was it held?  

Well, I PM?d several people here on fornits and eventually we formed a ?Statistical group? and decided to meet at the Hyatt in Chicago about a month ago.  We spent 3 days hammering out a direction and figured we would tackle the TBS sector first.

You said it was a meeting in December 2006 at the Hyatt in Chicago of your statistical group to asses the safety of TBS's.You're the one who said it.  Were you lying then or now?

The readers here deserve an explanation of the above proven lies.  Why won't you explain the lies?

I agree but first you need to prove your posts.

 You need proof, Bruce, you havent proved anything yet. We need a smoking gun and all we see are "your" words.  Many who might have believed thewho was this Reuben guy are now starting to doubt it.  You havent shown anything yet.  Start filling in the Citations and see  how you make out.  Then we can go from there.

And, I'm obviously not "Bruce."  So you can stop trying to pin this on him.  You're the liar here.  You need to account for your lies.

'


I believe the Guest above created the subject of this thread.  I have just fleshed it out a bit, but not changed it.  I believe you actually tried to change it several times, but we keep coming back to the thread topic anyway.

Funny how you're very adept at the quote function when you need it to be correct, but get a li'l sloppy when trying to perpetrate fraud on someone else.  I love the smell of desperation, it smells like...victory. :cheers:

[Troll Control]

Riiiiighttt. And which program would that be? What you aver is simply not all that believable. You have never ventured to describe any program on fornits in anything other than the most general and non-specific terms. Even program parents and EdCons are able to be more specific than you.

Link

I'm reading a lot of BULLSHIT in this forum. WWASPS is the best thing that ever happened, Stop lying you idiots!!

It appears to be a WWASPS program, but a quick read through SUCK ITs posts seems to reveal a very familiar style and format.  Of 111 posts, 30 say "Whooter is great" in some verbiage or other.

Remember, we won't have to guess soon because Whooter just said he will have his usernames and anon posts strung together a few posts back.  We'll see "Who's Who" as soon as it's done.  If Whooter were actually honest about his logins this wouldn't be necessary, but he continues to hide his multiple identities he's already admitting to using.  Anywway, we'll see soon when Whooter does what he promised to do.  I have a feeling he'll cop out though.

Just think how easier it would be to accept that I am an individual with a different view than yours. No more mental hurdles, conspiracy theories and research attempting to find the non existent smoking gun where you prove I really am Whooter. I'll give you a hint, you're wasting your time. i am not Whooter, although I do find his honesty on this site refreshing and have said this before.

Hey, if you're not, you're not.  I have no problem with that.  Whooter can clear it up for us by just saying which of the multiple logins are actually him and which ones aren't.  

Not sure how duplicity via multiple logins is "honest" though, SUCK IT.  Maybe you can explain how creating multiple logins to have them ratpack other posters so it seems as if many people share that POV fits in your definition of "honest."  I'm interested to hear it.  

And I thought you said before you weren't going to "waste your holiday weekend"?  Go have some fun.  Myself, I'm free all day today but have a wedding to go to tonight.  Don't want to be accused of "running" from anything, ya know?  

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Whooter]

I got a question for Whooter.  When you sent your child to ASR did you know a counselor named Brett Carey?

The name does sound familiar, but I dont know for sure.



...

[SUCK IT]

Riiiiighttt. And which program would that be? What you aver is simply not all that believable. You have never ventured to describe any program on fornits in anything other than the most general and non-specific terms. Even program parents and EdCons are able to be more specific than you.

Link

I'm reading a lot of BULLSHIT in this forum. WWASPS is the best thing that ever happened, Stop lying you idiots!!

It appears to be a WWASPS program, but a quick read through SUCK ITs posts seems to reveal a very familiar style and format.  Of 111 posts, 30 say "Whooter is great" in some verbiage or other.

Remember, we won't have to guess soon because Whooter just said he will have his usernames and anon posts strung together a few posts back.  We'll see "Who's Who" as soon as it's done.  If Whooter were actually honest about his logins this wouldn't be necessary, but he continues to hide his multiple identities he's already admitting to using.  Anywway, we'll see soon when Whooter does what he promised to do.  I have a feeling he'll cop out though.

Just think how easier it would be to accept that I am an individual with a different view than yours. No more mental hurdles, conspiracy theories and research attempting to find the non existent smoking gun where you prove I really am Whooter. I'll give you a hint, you're wasting your time. i am not Whooter, although I do find his honesty on this site refreshing and have said this before.

Hey, if you're not, you're not.  I have no problem with that.  Whooter can clear it up for us by just saying which of the multiple logins are actually him and which ones aren't.  

Not sure how duplicity via multiple logins is "honest" though, SUCK IT.  Maybe you can explain how creating multiple logins to have them ratpack other posters so it seems as if many people share that POV fits in your definition of "honest."  I'm interested to hear it.  

And I thought you said before you weren't going to "waste your holiday weekend"?  Go have some fun.  Myself, I'm free all day today but have a wedding to go to tonight.  Don't want to be accused of "running" from anything, ya know?  

Nobody ever said that I was Whooter, he didn't, I didn't. The only person claiming that is you. So you want someone else to prove to you that your own personal delusions are incorrect, sorry buddy, but it doesn't work that way. If you have evidence that Whooter is posting under multiple logins, post it, otherwise you are just making assumptions, which in my case was completely incorrect. Your "dance whooter dance" and "victory" claims and trying to force Whooter to give up his anonymity is disturbing, to me at least. It makes you appear controlling and obsessed, with an argument that means nothing to anybody other than you. After posting so much angst, you then make the insincere gesture that everything in your life is cool and breezy, which just comes off as completely false in a desperate bid to convince us that you are not obsessed and controlling. That's how it comes off to me, at least. It's very common to the extremists here this type of obsession with Whooter, its all very confusing. You people dismiss Whooter as a troll (I think you are actually trolling him), but then make so much effort to argue with him and then throw in reasons from your personal life why you are not as psycho as you appear to be. This post probably made little sense, but its an attempt to put into words this strange situation on this forum that seems to repeat itself over and over.  The only reason thi would be a waste of time is if you assume the person you are talking to is  lying, or just trolling which you do believe. I tend to believe people are making arguments based on their point of view.