Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > The Troubled Teen Industry
Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
Ursus:
--- Quote from: "Whooter" ---
--- Quote from: "Ursus" ---I am curious as to *what* this "latest design" happens to be. Thus far, there has been very little information forthcoming. Certainly nothing to dissuade me from thinking that it's little more than variations on an old old theme, were I inclined to prejudge like that.
--- End quote ---
I tend to be more open minded than most here. So far they have not shown themselves to have a rich history in the Present TTI, have verbalized an intention of not wanting to duplicate the wilderness models here in the US. So I am still open to their ideas and curious.
--- End quote ---
No comment on your self descriptive of being "more open minded."
As to Darckenu Israel's claims of creating their own wilderness program, they have still somehow managed to say surprisingly little of any substance about it. In Shaul Abir's words, from his previous post:
In recent years we thought about developing & leading a program that fits our philosophy (in regard to troubled teens and their families). We wanted to use our experiences and know how for the benefit of troubled teens and their families.
It took us some time to develop it, check options and possibilities and finally practically doing it…
We heard a lot about wilderness programs and some years ago started to investigate it. As usually with concepts, we liked some ideas, we did not like others and we created our own wilderness program that is applicable in Israel.
And here we are ready to do things differently, not a boot camp, not a brat camp and not against the teenager's will.[/list]
What does the above statement actually mean in real life terms? Quite frankly, it sounds more like it came from a marketing one sheet than anything else. It states having a concrete concept or philosophy in mind, it states having relevant knowledge and notes additional investigation of such, but it doesn't actually commit to any specifics as to what that concept is, what that knowledge is comprised of, or what the additional investigation pertained to or unearthed.
What exactly *IS* their "philosophy" with regard to troubled teens and their families?
And what do they mean by "not against the teenager's will?" Is that consent fully informed? And, if that is even possible to bring about, what about those circumstances where a Darckenau Israel trek is simply the lesser evil of few options?
Whooter:
--- Quote from: "Ursus" ---
--- Quote from: "Whooter" ---
--- Quote from: "Ursus" ---Are you Darckenu Israel's spokesperson now, Whooter?
--- End quote ---
Oh No!! Don't mention this to DJ. He will lead readers around by the nose once again with his latest theories. I am sure he can figure out some time lines and past posts that tie me to this new wilderness endeavor and instead of John he will call me Taaveti. If you come across any past posts (under TheWho name) where it says I had meetings in Israel can you delete them for me? lol
--- End quote ---
I actually asked you this question in all seriousness, Whooter, since you seemed to imply a certain authority with regard to the Abirs' endeavors in your previous post. Your attempt to turn my question into an opportunity for over the top exaggeration and obfuscation makes me wonder... Nevertheless, my comment on that:
When I bought your old account 'TheWho' as per the conditions of that fund raiser two years ago, I decided to leave everything exactly as it was. I won't be deleting anything, for anyone's sake. You, of all people, should know how I am 'bout "historical preservation" by now. :D
Of course, "who" woulda known just how many additional posts you made back then on the side, posing as others and posting numerous conversations with yourself to imply more universal agreement with your theories and so called analysis, lol. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to agree to having all those guest posts from your IP addies linked up to your account. My museum piece ended up more than doubled in size, thanks to Psy's due diligence in carrying out your and DJ's requests for said link up.
--- End quote ---
I think you even got a few months of "Whooter" posts thrown in! If I had anything to hide I would have just had "Thewho" account deleted and started the new one "Whooter". I think you know by now that I stand behind all my posts. If there was a specific post that causes you heart burn or you felt needed clarification I am always willing to discuss them with you or with anyone. Everything I post is to further a discussion, well except maybe in the "TheWho" thread. lol
...
Whooter:
--- Quote from: "Ursus" ---
As to Darckenu Israel's claims of creating their own wilderness program, they have still somehow managed to say surprisingly little of any substance about it. In Shaul Abir's words, from his previous post:
In recent years we thought about developing & leading a program that fits our philosophy (in regard to troubled teens and their families). We wanted to use our experiences and know how for the benefit of troubled teens and their families.
It took us some time to develop it, check options and possibilities and finally practically doing it…
We heard a lot about wilderness programs and some years ago started to investigate it. As usually with concepts, we liked some ideas, we did not like others and we created our own wilderness program that is applicable in Israel.
And here we are ready to do things differently, not a boot camp, not a brat camp and not against the teenager's will.[/list]
What does the above statement actually mean in real life terms? Quite frankly, it sounds more like it came from a marketing one sheet than anything else. It states having a concrete concept or philosophy in mind, it states having relevant knowledge and notes additional investigation of such, but it doesn't actually commit to any specifics as to what that concept is, what that knowledge is comprised of, or what the additional investigation pertained to or unearthed.
What exactly *IS* their "philosophy" with regard to troubled teens and their families?
And what do they mean by "not against the teenager's will?" Is that consent fully informed? And, if that is even possible to bring about, what about those circumstances where a Darckenau Israel trek is simply the lesser evil of few options?
--- End quote ---
I expected a little more detail on their philosophy than they gave but my expectations are not that they will tell the readers how many miles they hike per day. When I was at SUWS of the Carolinas there we 2 kids who really enjoyed the experience. They were brought up with a lot of hiking and fishing so took the wilderness as a challenge. So I could see this new program as taking only kids who are willing.
The kids may have the option of getting a job and working all summer or going to this wilderness program. many kids would go for wilderness.
...
Abir:
Hi all,
1. Our site is "on the air" so you are more than welcome to visit, read and understand more about us, our concept, philosophy etc...so I am sure that many questions raised here previously by some members, will be more clear (we are still working on the site, some things will be added and corrections will be made in the next few days).
2. I was somewhat surprised in regards to the many speculations, comments and ideas expressed here (some of them are pure insult if i may say this) based on nothing but a homepage with a notice that "our site is coming soon".
3. Among the many questions and points raised was one that I would like to answer: "...not against the teenager will" - That means that we will not accept to the program teenagers who do not want to participate in it! even if their parents want to! As simple as that. Just to let you know, we have in our site a mini site designed for teenagers in order to enable them to speak with us directly and get all the information they need.
4. Since I am the only one here that is not "under cover" meaning my details, name, address, phone numbers, email etc...are known to all,
I would like to suggest to anyone who is really interested to know more about our program, to contact me by e mail directly and i will be more than happy to discuss things, explain and elaborate.
wishing you all
Happy Chanuka and Merry Christmass
Shaul
heretik:
--- Quote from: "Abir" ---Hi all,
1. Our site is "on the air" so you are more than welcome to visit, read and understand more about us, our concept, philosophy etc...so I am sure that many questions raised here previously by some members, will be more clear (we are still working on the site, some things will be added and corrections will be made in the next few days).
2. I was somewhat surprised in regards to the many speculations, comments and ideas expressed here (some of them are pure insult if i may say this) based on nothing but a homepage with a notice that "our site is coming soon".
3. Among the many questions and points raised was one that I would like to answer: "...not against the teenager will" - That means that we will not accept to the program teenagers who do not want to participate in it! even if their parents want to! As simple as that. Just to let you know, we have in our site a mini site designed for teenagers in order to enable them to speak with us directly and get all the information they need.
4. Since I am the only one here that is not "under cover" meaning my details, name, address, phone numbers, email etc...are known to all,
I would like to suggest to anyone who is really interested to know more about our program, to contact me by e mail directly and i will be more than happy to discuss things, explain and elaborate.
wishing you all
Happy Chanuka and Merry Christmass
Shaul
--- End quote ---
Shalom Aleichem,
Let me be the first to say I truly do not believe anyone was trying to insult you. Just that brash American personality. To get right to my point what you may be mistaking as a insult could be looked at another way, fear. Fear that another program maybe coming on board that will be discriminating against children rights, fear that another program is being introduced that does not enable parents and other interested parties a chance to really see under the covers and the ever presence fear that most feel here when we hear another program is coming on line, that this program will be like ours and hurt more children.
Abir, this site has members who actually went through programs that were extremely unhealthy, we are constantly advocating against anymore programs. This is not to say your vision of a program will not benefit children, I just have not seen many that do.
I will take you up on your offer to email you. I promise to keep my questions to a minimum, as I'm sure others will be emailing also.
Thanks for your efforts, Abir.
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