Author Topic: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad  (Read 14066 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ursus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8989
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2010, 02:43:07 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Ursus"
I am curious as to *what* this "latest design" happens to be. Thus far, there has been very little information forthcoming. Certainly nothing to dissuade me from thinking that it's little more than variations on an old old theme, were I inclined to prejudge like that.
I tend to be more open minded than most here. So far they have not shown themselves to have a rich history in the Present TTI, have verbalized an intention of not wanting to duplicate the wilderness models here in the US. So I am still open to their ideas and curious.
No comment on your self descriptive of being "more open minded."

As to Darckenu Israel's claims of creating their own wilderness program, they have still somehow managed to say surprisingly little of any substance about it. In Shaul Abir's words, from his previous post:

    In recent years we thought about developing & leading a program that fits our philosophy (in regard to troubled teens and their families). We wanted to use our experiences and know how for the benefit of troubled teens and their families.

    It took us some time to develop it, check options and possibilities and finally practically doing it…

    We heard a lot about wilderness programs and some years ago started to investigate it. As usually with concepts, we liked some ideas, we did not like others and we created our own wilderness program that is applicable in Israel.

    And here we are ready to do things differently, not a boot camp, not a brat camp and not against the teenager's will.
    [/list]

    What does the above statement actually mean in real life terms? Quite frankly, it sounds more like it came from a marketing one sheet than anything else. It states having a concrete concept or philosophy in mind, it states having relevant knowledge and notes additional investigation of such, but it doesn't actually commit to any specifics as to what that concept is, what that knowledge is comprised of, or what the additional investigation pertained to or unearthed.

    What exactly *IS* their "philosophy" with regard to troubled teens and their families?

    And what do they mean by "not against the teenager's will?" Is that consent fully informed? And, if that is even possible to bring about, what about those circumstances where a Darckenau Israel trek is simply the lesser evil of few options?
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
    -------------- • -------------- • --------------

    Offline Whooter

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 5513
    • Karma: +0/-0
      • View Profile
    Re: TTI spokesperson, "doing it international" now...
    « Reply #46 on: December 05, 2010, 04:11:37 PM »
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    Quote from: "Whooter"
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    Are you Darckenu Israel's spokesperson now, Whooter?
    Oh No!! Don't mention this to DJ. He will lead readers around by the nose once again with his latest theories. I am sure he can figure out some time lines and past posts that tie me to this new wilderness endeavor and instead of John he will call me Taaveti. If you come across any past posts (under TheWho name) where it says I had meetings in Israel can you delete them for me? lol
    I actually asked you this question in all seriousness, Whooter, since you seemed to imply a certain authority with regard to the Abirs' endeavors in your previous post. Your attempt to turn my question into an opportunity for over the top exaggeration and obfuscation makes me wonder... Nevertheless, my comment on that:

    When I bought your old account 'TheWho' as per the conditions of that fund raiser two years ago, I decided to leave everything exactly as it was. I won't be deleting anything, for anyone's sake. You, of all people, should know how I am 'bout "historical preservation" by now.  :D

    Of course, "who" woulda known just how many additional posts you made back then on the side, posing as others and posting numerous conversations with yourself to imply more universal agreement with your theories and so called analysis, lol. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to agree to having all those guest posts from your IP addies linked up to your account. My museum piece ended up more than doubled in size, thanks to Psy's due diligence in carrying out your and DJ's requests for said link up.

    I think you even got a few months of "Whooter" posts thrown in!  If I had anything to hide I would have just had "Thewho" account deleted and started the new one "Whooter".  I think you know by now that I stand behind all my posts.  If there was a specific post that causes you heart burn or you felt needed clarification I am always willing to discuss them with you or with anyone.  Everything I post is to further a discussion, well except maybe in the "TheWho" thread. lol



    ...
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

    Offline Whooter

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 5513
    • Karma: +0/-0
      • View Profile
    Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
    « Reply #47 on: December 05, 2010, 04:20:41 PM »
    Quote from: "Ursus"

    As to Darckenu Israel's claims of creating their own wilderness program, they have still somehow managed to say surprisingly little of any substance about it. In Shaul Abir's words, from his previous post:

      In recent years we thought about developing & leading a program that fits our philosophy (in regard to troubled teens and their families). We wanted to use our experiences and know how for the benefit of troubled teens and their families.

      It took us some time to develop it, check options and possibilities and finally practically doing it…

      We heard a lot about wilderness programs and some years ago started to investigate it. As usually with concepts, we liked some ideas, we did not like others and we created our own wilderness program that is applicable in Israel.

      And here we are ready to do things differently, not a boot camp, not a brat camp and not against the teenager's will.
      [/list]

      What does the above statement actually mean in real life terms? Quite frankly, it sounds more like it came from a marketing one sheet than anything else. It states having a concrete concept or philosophy in mind, it states having relevant knowledge and notes additional investigation of such, but it doesn't actually commit to any specifics as to what that concept is, what that knowledge is comprised of, or what the additional investigation pertained to or unearthed.

      What exactly *IS* their "philosophy" with regard to troubled teens and their families?

      And what do they mean by "not against the teenager's will?" Is that consent fully informed? And, if that is even possible to bring about, what about those circumstances where a Darckenau Israel trek is simply the lesser evil of few options?

      I expected a little more detail on their philosophy than they gave but my expectations are not that they will tell the readers how many miles they hike per day.  When I was at SUWS of the Carolinas there we 2 kids who really enjoyed the experience.  They were brought up with a lot of hiking and fishing so took the wilderness as a challenge.  So I could see this new program as taking only kids who are willing.

      The kids may have the option of getting a job and working all summer or going to this wilderness program.  many kids would go for wilderness.



      ...
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

      Offline Abir

      • Posts: 8
      • Karma: +0/-0
        • View Profile
      Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      « Reply #48 on: December 06, 2010, 02:45:07 PM »
      Hi all,
      1. Our site is "on the air" so you are more than welcome to visit, read and understand more about us, our concept, philosophy etc...so I am sure that many questions raised here previously by some members, will be more clear (we are still working on the site, some things will be added and corrections will be made in the next few days).

      2. I was somewhat surprised in regards to the many speculations, comments and ideas expressed here (some of them are pure insult if i may say this) based on nothing but a homepage with a notice that "our site is coming soon".

      3. Among the many questions and points raised was one that I would like to answer: "...not against the teenager will" - That means that we will not accept to the program teenagers who do not want to participate in it! even if their parents want to! As simple as that. Just to let you know, we have in our site a mini site designed for teenagers in order to enable them to speak with us directly and get all the information they need.

      4. Since I am the only one here that is not "under cover" meaning my details, name, address, phone numbers, email etc...are known to all,
       I would like to suggest to anyone who is really interested to know more about our program, to contact me by e mail directly and i will be more than happy to discuss things, explain and elaborate.

      wishing you  all
      Happy Chanuka and Merry Christmass
      Shaul
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

      Offline heretik

      • Newbie
      • *
      • Posts: 357
      • Karma: +0/-0
        • View Profile
      Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      « Reply #49 on: December 06, 2010, 07:01:20 PM »
      Quote from: "Abir"
      Hi all,
      1. Our site is "on the air" so you are more than welcome to visit, read and understand more about us, our concept, philosophy etc...so I am sure that many questions raised here previously by some members, will be more clear (we are still working on the site, some things will be added and corrections will be made in the next few days).

      2. I was somewhat surprised in regards to the many speculations, comments and ideas expressed here (some of them are pure insult if i may say this) based on nothing but a homepage with a notice that "our site is coming soon".

      3. Among the many questions and points raised was one that I would like to answer: "...not against the teenager will" - That means that we will not accept to the program teenagers who do not want to participate in it! even if their parents want to! As simple as that. Just to let you know, we have in our site a mini site designed for teenagers in order to enable them to speak with us directly and get all the information they need.

      4. Since I am the only one here that is not "under cover" meaning my details, name, address, phone numbers, email etc...are known to all,
       I would like to suggest to anyone who is really interested to know more about our program, to contact me by e mail directly and i will be more than happy to discuss things, explain and elaborate.

      wishing you  all
      Happy Chanuka and Merry Christmass
      Shaul

      Shalom Aleichem,
      Let me be the first to say I truly do not believe anyone was trying to insult you. Just that brash American personality. To get right to my point what you may be mistaking as a insult could be looked at another way, fear. Fear that another program maybe coming on board that will be discriminating against children rights, fear that another program is being introduced that does not enable parents and other interested parties a chance to really see under the covers and the ever presence fear that most feel here when we hear another program is coming on line, that this program will be like ours and hurt more children.
      Abir, this site has members who actually went through programs that were extremely unhealthy, we are constantly advocating against anymore programs. This is not to say your vision of a program will not benefit children, I just have not seen many that do.
      I will take you up on your offer to email you. I promise to keep my questions to a minimum, as I'm sure others will be emailing also.
      Thanks for your efforts, Abir.
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

      Offline Yael Eshet Khever

      • Posts: 28
      • Karma: +0/-0
        • View Profile
      Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      « Reply #50 on: December 07, 2010, 06:17:05 AM »
      Quote from: "Abir"
      Hi all,
      1. Our site is "on the air" so you are more than welcome to visit, read and understand more about us, our concept, philosophy etc...so I am sure that many questions raised here previously by some members, will be more clear (we are still working on the site, some things will be added and corrections will be made in the next few days).

      2. I was somewhat surprised in regards to the many speculations, comments and ideas expressed here (some of them are pure insult if i may say this) based on nothing but a homepage with a notice that "our site is coming soon".

      Shaul - many of the speculation of people here are based on fear that your program will use the exact same false-marketing tactics and unethical practices used by many, many other programs, often with tragic results.

      Quote
      3. Among the many questions and points raised was one that I would like to answer: "...not against the teenager will" - That means that we will not accept to the program teenagers who do not want to participate in it! even if their parents want to! As simple as that. Just to let you know, we have in our site a mini site designed for teenagers in order to enable them to speak with us directly and get all the information they need.

      That's good to hear. As you may know, many of the "teen help" programs in the industry use what is euphemistically called a "transportation / escort service" - which essentially means kidnapping the teen (with their parents' approval) out of their bed in the middle of the night, and detaining them in the program against their will without due process. I hope you will not turn to coercing teens into your program.
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

      Offline Abir

      • Posts: 8
      • Karma: +0/-0
        • View Profile
      Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      « Reply #51 on: December 08, 2010, 11:47:52 AM »
      Heretik and Yael Shalom,
      Thank you for your information and highlights.

      I was not aware of the following:

      "many of the "teen help" programs in the industry use what is euphemistically called a "transportation / escort service" - which essentially means kidnapping the teen (with their parents' approval) out of their bed in the middle of the night, and detaining them in the program against their will without due process."

      I fully condem those kinds of practices and can assure you that we will never do that!
      Thanks again
      Shaul
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

      Offline Ursus

      • Newbie
      • *
      • Posts: 8989
      • Karma: +3/-0
        • View Profile
      Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      « Reply #52 on: December 10, 2010, 12:49:03 PM »
      Quote from: "Abir"
      Heretik and Yael Shalom,
      Thank you for your information and highlights.

      I was not aware of the following:

      "many of the "teen help" programs in the industry use what is euphemistically called a "transportation / escort service" - which essentially means kidnapping the teen (with their parents' approval) out of their bed in the middle of the night, and detaining them in the program against their will without due process."

      I fully condem those kinds of practices and can assure you that we will never do that!
      Thanks again
      Shaul
      Depending on the kid and on the program, there are also less extreme measures which can accomplish the same goal. A visit with an empathetic church counselor or school guidance counselor, which ends with being handed over to a pair of uniformed "escorts." A family excursion "to the country" or Disney World or similar such desired location, which ends with arrival at the program. These all involve a fair amount of deception on the part of formerly trusted adult figures in the kid's life.

      And then there are cases of kids going to a program willingly, seemingly fully aware of and in agreement with said destination. Problem is, the description of the program, not to mention its philosophy and the purposes for which the kid is being sent there, are not in keeping with the information that the kid was given. By the time the kid figures that out, it's usually too late. Sometimes the parents are even similarly misinformed, although usually not quite to the same degree.

      For a kid to go to a program "not against their will," to *my* mind at least, any such consent should by rights entail a certain amount of disclosure and transparency on the program's part. Consent that is not fully informed is not really "consent" at all. How will you ensure that children and their parents will be fully informed as to what to expect from your program, Shaul?
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
      -------------- • -------------- • --------------

      Offline Abir

      • Posts: 8
      • Karma: +0/-0
        • View Profile
      Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      « Reply #53 on: December 10, 2010, 03:39:44 PM »
      Hi Ursus,
      I will do my best to answer:
      1. As mentioned before (and it is also mentioned in our website), We do not accept kids who do not want to join the program even if their parents want them to do so.
      2. The parents are a very important part of our program: they have to commit themselves and come for 8 days (from day 30th to day 38) and participate in various trainings and workshops (for details please see the "parents' program part in our website).
      3. We will have a Teen Zone in our website (coming very soon, right now yo can see only the homepage of our Teen Zone)) in which we explain in details everything in regard to the program. We do intend to talk to each kid and make sure he/she understands what it is all about.
      4. We are totally transparent in regards to everything starting from the cost, cancellation policy, enrollment agreement and a quiet detailed website that presents everything we could think about.
      5. Our "philosophy", way of doing things, way of thinking etc...is clearly presented in our site, and the words there are so straightforward and sharp clear.

      And on top of all, our values and ethics will not permit using deception in order to build trust...It simply does not make sense !!! How could one build trust based on lies and deception?

      In addition, by the end of the day you could believe me or not...I hope that the more we talk, exchange ideas and know each other better, trust will be built between us and the other members that read these lines.
      have a good weekend,
      shaul
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

      Offline Ursus

      • Newbie
      • *
      • Posts: 8989
      • Karma: +3/-0
        • View Profile
      Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      « Reply #54 on: December 14, 2010, 12:36:29 AM »
      AHah! I see that you've finally updated your website! Now we actually have some real meat to chew on (apologies to any vegetarians reading this)...

      One question that I have right off the bat, and one that was actually inspired by your post, prior to discovering the substantially updated website, is ... how will you screen kids and their parents — with regard to the question of appropriate fit for your program as well as fully informed consent issues — prior to the undertaking of a "Darckenu walk?" Will you be conducting any prescreening in the country of residence? Pragmatically speaking, and perhaps also crudely stated, round-trip airfare from the United States to Israel for two adults plus child is no small piece of change.
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
      -------------- • -------------- • --------------

      Offline Abir

      • Posts: 8
      • Karma: +0/-0
        • View Profile
      Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      « Reply #55 on: December 15, 2010, 01:18:51 AM »
      hi Ursus,
      1. No prescreening process will be conducted in the country of residence. We will use questionnaires, phone conversations, skype, e mail etc...Our professionals will contact other professionals as needed (consultants, psychologists, MD's etc...). This is true for parents and kids.

      2. True, flight tickets costs are around 1200 USD per person (round trip) depending on from where they are departing in the USA and when. We know that our program is unique and different (and I think that you may have noticed this as well), so families would consider it from all aspects not only the financial one. How would you quantify in USD the value of helping a kid that was lost....I am sure that it is way more than 25K USD...
      have a good weekend
      Shaul
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

      Offline Oscar

      • Newbie
      • *
      • Posts: 1613
      • Karma: +4/-0
        • View Profile
        • Secret Prisons for Teens
      Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      « Reply #56 on: December 15, 2010, 05:26:53 PM »
      Research made a second wilderness program pop up. It is called Lotan's way named after a soldier who died during one of the wars down there.

      Lotan's Way - homepage
      Facebook group
      More background as some visited the parents of the death soldier
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

      Offline Ursus

      • Newbie
      • *
      • Posts: 8989
      • Karma: +3/-0
        • View Profile
      Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      « Reply #57 on: December 18, 2010, 12:26:30 AM »
      Quote from: "Oscar"
      Research made a second wilderness program pop up. It is called Lotan's way named after a soldier who died during one of the wars down there.

      Lotan's Way - homepage
      Facebook group
      More background as some visited the parents of the death soldier
      New thread in the event that this program warrants a closer look, one way or the other:

      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
      -------------- • -------------- • --------------

      Offline Ursus

      • Newbie
      • *
      • Posts: 8989
      • Karma: +3/-0
        • View Profile
      Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      « Reply #58 on: January 27, 2011, 12:39:50 PM »
      Quote from: "Abir"
      hi Ursus,
      1. No prescreening process will be conducted in the country of residence. We will use questionnaires, phone conversations, skype, e mail etc...Our professionals will contact other professionals as needed (consultants, psychologists, MD's etc...). This is true for parents and kids.

      2. True, flight tickets costs are around 1200 USD per person (round trip) depending on from where they are departing in the USA and when. We know that our program is unique and different (and I think that you may have noticed this as well), so families would consider it from all aspects not only the financial one. How would you quantify in USD the value of helping a kid that was lost....I am sure that it is way more than 25K USD...
      have a good weekend
      Shaul
      How would you describe Darckenu Israel, Shaul, to differentiate it from the other Israeli program Oscar just brought to our attention, namely, Lotan's Way? I imagine the respective costs are significantly different. Presumably, the therapeutic component should reflect that?
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
      -------------- • -------------- • --------------

      Offline seamus

      • Newbie
      • *
      • Posts: 824
      • Karma: +0/-0
        • View Profile
      Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
      « Reply #59 on: January 27, 2011, 02:08:31 PM »
      Isreal gets between 6-8 million dollars in forign aid a day from this country. Parents ,do your selves a favor, if you are gonna put your kid thru all this ,keep it in country so at least you have legal recourse.wtf. :bs:
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
      It\'d be sad if it wernt so funny,It\'d be funny if it wernt so sad