Author Topic: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad  (Read 14027 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Yael Eshet Khever

  • Posts: 28
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2010, 11:09:14 AM »
Einat Tzuk is the HR/training director of a high tech company. She also seems to be very involved in her company's social contribution efforts-- I came across an article about her presenting gifts to talented teachers at a high school, and another about her involvement in donating to/funding programs to assist students at a different school. This could be nothing but plain philanthropy, or it could be something more sinister-- I don't have enough info to know.

Ursus -
I agree that there's a lot of connection between the "life coaching" trend and LGAT's, the Troubled Teens industry, etc. One of the effects of the "coaching" trend is the promotion of non-proved, possibly unsafe methods as a replacement for proper therapy-- which is turn opens the door to other types of unproved, unsafe "therapy". I wonder how much of LGAT techniques are the Abirs combining into these seminars. I'll try to see if there is any info available. The large-group setting is definitely a red flag.

The Human Potential Movement was the first public promotion of LGAT methods, but it goes further than that-- remember those American POW's who, at the end of the Korean War, renounced their own country and refused to be reptriated? And even before that, there was Mao, who developed and refined these methods and most probably taught them to the Koreans. Like that old Rocky Mountain News article said, in the US, these methods took on a new American twist: they make money. And that makes them even more dangerous, since it enables them to spread further.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Ursus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8989
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2010, 10:55:38 PM »
Quote from: "Yael Eshet Khever"
Einat Tzuk is the HR/training director of a high tech company. She also seems to be very involved in her company's social contribution efforts-- I came across an article about her presenting gifts to talented teachers at a high school, and another about her involvement in donating to/funding programs to assist students at a different school. This could be nothing but plain philanthropy, or it could be something more sinister-- I don't have enough info to know.
A lot of philanthropy these days seems to be tethered to public relations and/or marketing agendas. I'm not saying that's good or bad, but it does tend to present the "donating" company in a light that is, sometimes, perhaps more flattering than deserved.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
-------------- • -------------- • --------------

Offline Ursus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8989
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2010, 11:08:52 PM »
Quote from: "Yael Eshet Khever"
The Human Potential Movement was the first public promotion of LGAT methods, but it goes further than that-- remember those American POW's who, at the end of the Korean War, renounced their own country and refused to be reptriated? And even before that, there was Mao, who developed and refined these methods and most probably taught them to the Koreans. Like that old Rocky Mountain News article said, in the US, these methods took on a new American twist: they make money. And that makes them even more dangerous, since it enables them to spread further.
And who was before Mao? I suspect this kind of peer group confrontation was used in POW camps/prisons in Asia prior to the second Sino-Japanese conflict even. But that does seem to be about the time the Occidental world began to study it for use as a tool in their own war-making efforts. ...I could be wrong, though!  :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
-------------- • -------------- • --------------

Offline Ursus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8989
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2010, 12:43:38 AM »
Quote from: "Yael Eshet Khever"
Ursus -
I agree that there's a lot of connection between the "life coaching" trend and LGAT's, the Troubled Teens industry, etc. One of the effects of the "coaching" trend is the promotion of non-proved, possibly unsafe methods as a replacement for proper therapy-- which is turn opens the door to other types of unproved, unsafe "therapy". I wonder how much of LGAT techniques are the Abirs combining into these seminars. I'll try to see if there is any info available. The large-group setting is definitely a red flag.
Some food for thought:

  • From the Abirs' webpage for the workshop COUPLEHOOD: THE INTRA-COUPLE RELATIONSHIP - RISK vs. POSSIBILITY, noting a "framework" which sounds an awful lot like the set up for an LGAT:

      FRAMEWORK OF THE WORKSHOP
      The workshop will be held at a hotel, on full-board basis.
      It starts on Thursday at 6pm and continues into the night and all day Friday and Saturday, ending at 6pm on Saturday.
      (*)The hotel stay is part of the program, and no one may attend on an "external" basis.

      Three months later, a "What's Happening Now?" meeting, lasting 5 hours, will be held.
    [/li][/list]
    • From the Abirs' webpage on the SUPPORT GROUP FOR YOUTH LEADERS workshop, mentioning the use of neuro-linguistic programming:

        •Channels of communication, according to the NLP model - tools for understanding our modes of communication and how we adapt them to the needs of others in order to achieve goals
      See also the following thread:

        NLP: Evolving the Double Bind
        viewtopic.php?f=81&t=30591[/list][/li][/list]

        All that said, I don't want to make the mistake of making a mountain out of a molehill. This kind of stuff may not be *my* cup of tea, but people have the right to explore whatever mind-blowing insights into the makeup of their psyches or other experiential bullshit that's presented at the buffet of newage hoopla and ballyhoo that they want. It's not so much the contents of these seminars and workshops that I usually have a problem with (although sometimes it is), it's more the techniques that are employed to present it and market it which make me more than a lil uneasy. And when these techniques of persuasion or inculcation are foisted on a naive population, e.g., adolescents... I get a bit on the offensive.

        I also have the impression that many of these "trainers" or other such professionals presume a level of sophistication or competence in these explorations in even their adult clients, which often is simply not the case. And people sometimes suffer damage as a consequence, sometimes even mortal damage.

        Incidentally, to the Abirs' credit, I noticed that several of their workshops indicate that they prefer to meet beforehand with potential participants in order to ascertain suitability. Whether that is actually the case, namely, that they do weed some folks out, or whether that language is simply there to present a responsible facade ... is an unknown.
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
        -------------- • -------------- • --------------

        Offline Abir

        • Posts: 8
        • Karma: +0/-0
          • View Profile
        Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
        « Reply #34 on: November 24, 2010, 05:04:51 PM »
        Hi,
        I am Shaul Abir one of the co-founders of Darckenu Israel. I have read most of the thread and i would like to invite whoever would like to, to ask me directly any question you might have and i will be more than happy to elaborate. Just to let you know, within a few days our site will be on and i am sure a lot of questions that have been raised will be answered.
        Wishing you a pleaseant day.
        Shaul
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

        Offline Ursus

        • Newbie
        • *
        • Posts: 8989
        • Karma: +3/-0
          • View Profile
        Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
        « Reply #35 on: November 27, 2010, 11:02:17 AM »
        Quote from: "Abir"
        Hi,
        I am Shaul Abir one of the co-founders of Darckenu Israel. I have read most of the thread and i would like to invite whoever would like to, to ask me directly any question you might have and i will be more than happy to elaborate. Just to let you know, within a few days our site will be on and i am sure a lot of questions that have been raised will be answered.
        Wishing you a pleaseant day.
        Shaul
        Welcome, Shaul. Thank you for posting. For starters, I am curious as to why you, your wife, and Einat Tzuk chose to go the route of starting a "troubled teen" wilderness program. I am also curious as to where the wording of your Darckenu Israel website (still just the one page as of now) owes its origins. It sounds very much like some of the U.S.-based programs that we are more familiar with.
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
        -------------- • -------------- • --------------

        Offline Abir

        • Posts: 8
        • Karma: +0/-0
          • View Profile
        Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
        « Reply #36 on: December 03, 2010, 11:32:23 AM »
        Thanks Ursus,
        As to your first question, Irit, Einat & myself  have been working with troubled teens (and their parents) for many years, and we were very successful (if I may say that…).

        In addition, as a kid I was something like what is called today "troubled teenager". Obviously I suffered a lot and luckily enough I was able to overcome great difficulties and pull myself together.

        When I grew up, I was able to study and developed a career in HR, Training, consultancy and organizational psychology and worked a lot with my wife Irit in helping families in various ways (workshops, trainings, mediations, lectures, coaching and more). May I add that in many cases we volunteered to do so…Why? Because I never forget where I came from…

        In recent years we thought about developing & leading a program that fits our philosophy (in regard to troubled teens and their families). We wanted to use our experiences and know how for the benefit of troubled teens and their families.

        It took us some time to develop it, check options and possibilities and finally practically doing it…

        We heard a lot about wilderness programs and some years ago started to investigate it. As usually with concepts, we liked some ideas, we did not like others and we created our own wilderness program that is applicable in Israel.

        And here we are ready to do things differently, not a boot camp, not a brat camp and not against the teenager's will.

        How? We invite you to visit our site, look at it and I am sure things will be clear.

        The bottom line: For the three of us, it is a dream that comes true!
        That answers (hopefully) your first question.  

        As to your second question: All the materials, wordings etc… were written by us in Hebrew and translated by our copywriter- translator.
        When you visit our site I am sure that you will be able to notice the uniqueness of the program we offer as well as the originality of the written materials.
        If you have any other questions or doubts please do not hesitate to contact me.
        Merry Christmas/happy Chanukah

        Shaul Abir
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

        Offline Anne Bonney

        • Newbie
        • *
        • Posts: 5006
        • Karma: +0/-0
          • View Profile
        Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
        « Reply #37 on: December 03, 2010, 12:19:15 PM »
        Quote from: "Abir"
        Thanks Ursus,
        As to your first question, Irit, Einat & myself  have been working with troubled teens (and their parents) for many years, and we were very successful (if I may say that…).

        In what capacity and with what credentials?

        Quote
        In addition, as a kid I was something like what is called today "troubled teenager". Obviously I suffered a lot and luckily enough I was able to overcome great difficulties and pull myself together.

        As most teens do.

        Quote
        When I grew up, I was able to study and developed a career in HR, Training, consultancy and organizational psychology and worked a lot with my wife Irit in helping families in various ways (workshops, trainings, mediations, lectures, coaching and more). May I add that in many cases we volunteered to do so…Why? Because I never forget where I came from…

        In recent years we thought about developing & leading a program that fits our philosophy (in regard to troubled teens and their families). We wanted to use our experiences and know how for the benefit of troubled teens and their families.

        Again, I'd like to ask in what capacity and what credentials do you have to deal with so-called "troubled teens"?


        Quote
        We heard a lot about wilderness programs and some years ago started to investigate it. As usually with concepts, we liked some ideas, we did not like others and we created our own wilderness program that is applicable in Israel.

        And here we are ready to do things differently, not a boot camp, not a brat camp and not against the teenager's will.

        How? We invite you to visit our site, look at it and I am sure things will be clear.

        No offense intended, but a website doesn't really give a clear picture of what actually goes on.  Most of the abusive programs here (in the U.S.) have fabulous websites with wonderful pictures of happy kids just hanging out in nature and making great friends.  The facts are quite the opposite.
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
        traight, St. Pete, early 80s
        AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

        The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

        Offline BuzzKill

        • Posts: 1815
        • Karma: +0/-0
          • View Profile
        Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
        « Reply #38 on: December 03, 2010, 08:43:49 PM »
        Anne is right that what the web sites mean very little to nothing.  Frankly, neither do assurances that you won't hire counselors who get their kicks tormenting kids, or that you are devoted to helping them. The fact that you are opening a wilderness program is especially troubling due to the American experience with them.  The danger is in taking a pack of goof-ball kids into harsh and extreme environments, and then refusing to believe them when they complain of illness and/or serious pain. This refusal to believe sick and hurting kids all to often results in their tortuous death. The extreme and remote locations of the outdoor programs increase this risk, but the same kind of gross negligence and cruelty has killed kids in facilities in cities all across the USA.

        If you truly want to avoid tragedy, please read: Help at Any Cost, how the troubled teen industry cons parents and hurts kids, by Maia Szalavitz; and pay attention.

        You should also Google:

        Aaron Bacon+North Star Expeditions
        Michelle Sutton+Summit Quest
        Ian August+Skyline Journey
        Nicholaus Contreraz+AZ boys ranch
        Roberto Reyes+Thayer Learning center

        For a start.

        Every one of these places and many more say/said just about exactly what you do.
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

        Offline heretik

        • Newbie
        • *
        • Posts: 357
        • Karma: +0/-0
          • View Profile
        Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
        « Reply #39 on: December 03, 2010, 11:27:47 PM »
        Abir, can you please explain what is your clinical idea of a "troubled teen". You spoke of your credentials, I was wondering if you would elaborate in more depth as to your individual and group counseling abilities. Last do you have any employment history with other programs you would like to share more on. Does your past history working at programs resemble the one you are creating and how does it.

        Thanks
        « Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 11:22:32 AM by heretik »

        Offline Ursus

        • Newbie
        • *
        • Posts: 8989
        • Karma: +3/-0
          • View Profile
        Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
        « Reply #40 on: December 04, 2010, 01:02:58 AM »
        Quote from: "Abir"
        ...And here we are ready to do things differently, not a boot camp, not a brat camp and not against the teenager's will.

        How? We invite you to visit our site, look at it and I am sure things will be clear.
        Thanks for your reply, Shaul. Unfortunately, your website is still, as of now, just the one page. This makes it a bit difficult for "things [to] be clear," since your wilderness program philosophy, such as it may be, is somewhat less than adequately expounded upon. Perhaps the lack of clarity is just due to my own obtuseness, or perhaps some things were inadvertently left out by the translator(s)?

        What does it mean, for example, to be "walking your choices?" What exactly is the "Darckenau trail?" And what methods of persuasion do you play to employ, when you "gently steer [troubled teens] to discover their own abilities to make valuable choices and reinforce their self image?" And how, if you could perchance be specific, are parents "categorically an integrated part of this process?"
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
        -------------- • -------------- • --------------

        Offline Whooter

        • Newbie
        • *
        • Posts: 5513
        • Karma: +0/-0
          • View Profile
        Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
        « Reply #41 on: December 04, 2010, 05:09:35 PM »
        I think this is a unique opportunity to take a look at what a few people view as the latest design of a wilderness program.  They seem to be compassionate about helping kids.  They have conducted research and want to eliminate what they view as  the bad points of the present wilderness programs and form a new program.  This may be the next step in an ever evolving industry.



        ...
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

        Offline Ursus

        • Newbie
        • *
        • Posts: 8989
        • Karma: +3/-0
          • View Profile
        Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
        « Reply #42 on: December 05, 2010, 10:55:28 AM »
        Quote from: "Whooter"
        I think this is a unique opportunity to take a look at what a few people view as the latest design of a wilderness program.  They seem to be compassionate about helping kids.  They have conducted research and want to eliminate what they view as  the bad points of the present wilderness programs and form a new program.  This may be the next step in an ever evolving industry.
        I am curious as to *what* this "latest design" happens to be. Thus far, there has been very little information forthcoming. Certainly nothing to dissuade me from thinking that it's little more than variations on an old old theme, were I inclined to prejudge like that.

        What kind of "research" have they conducted? What exactly are those "bad points" that they want to eliminate? Are you Darckenu Israel's spokesperson now, Whooter?
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
        -------------- • -------------- • --------------

        Offline Whooter

        • Newbie
        • *
        • Posts: 5513
        • Karma: +0/-0
          • View Profile
        Re: Darckenu Israel - new wilderness program abroad
        « Reply #43 on: December 05, 2010, 11:19:55 AM »
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        I am curious as to *what* this "latest design" happens to be. Thus far, there has been very little information forthcoming. Certainly nothing to dissuade me from thinking that it's little more than variations on an old old theme, were I inclined to prejudge like that.

        I tend to be more open minded than most here.  So far they have not shown themselves to have a rich history in the Present TTI,  have verbalized an intention of not wanting to duplicate the wilderness models here in the US. So I am still open to their ideas and curious.

        Quote
        What kind of "research" have they conducted? What exactly are those "bad points" that they want to eliminate?

        I am interested as you are.

        Quote
        Are you Darckenu Israel's spokesperson now, Whooter?

         Oh No!! Don't mention this to DJ. He will lead readers around by the nose once again with his latest theories.   I am sure he can figure out some time lines and past posts that tie me to this new wilderness endeavor and instead of John he will call me Taaveti.  If you come across any past posts (under TheWho name) where it says I had meetings in Israel can you delete them for me?  lol



        ...
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

        Offline Ursus

        • Newbie
        • *
        • Posts: 8989
        • Karma: +3/-0
          • View Profile
        TTI spokesperson, "doin' it international" now...
        « Reply #44 on: December 05, 2010, 02:36:52 PM »
        Quote from: "Whooter"
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        Are you Darckenu Israel's spokesperson now, Whooter?
        Oh No!! Don't mention this to DJ. He will lead readers around by the nose once again with his latest theories. I am sure he can figure out some time lines and past posts that tie me to this new wilderness endeavor and instead of John he will call me Taaveti. If you come across any past posts (under TheWho name) where it says I had meetings in Israel can you delete them for me? lol
        I actually asked you this question in all seriousness, Whooter, since you seemed to imply a certain authority with regard to the Abirs' endeavors in your previous post. Your attempt to turn my question into an opportunity for over the top exaggeration and obfuscation makes me wonder... Nevertheless, my comment on that:

        When I bought your old account 'TheWho' as per the conditions of that fund raiser two years ago, I decided to leave everything exactly as it was. I won't be deleting anything, for anyone's sake. You, of all people, should know how I am 'bout "historical preservation" by now.  :D

        Of course, "who" woulda known just how many additional posts you made back then on the side, posing as others and posting numerous conversations with yourself to imply more universal agreement with your theories and so called analysis, lol. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to agree to having all those guest posts from your IP addies linked up to your account. My museum piece ended up more than doubled in size, thanks to Psy's due diligence in carrying out your and DJ's requests for said link up.
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
        -------------- • -------------- • --------------