Program Model I support

[Whooter]

This is a local school that I support.  They have many across the country.  If all kids attended schools like this one then I dont think there would be a need for placing kids outside the home in out of state programs. (or as a minimum there wouldnt be many kids left to support the programs that exist today)

Link

 At Sudbury Valley School, students from preschool through high school age explore the world freely, at their own pace and in their own unique ways. They learn to think for themselves, and learn to use Information Age tools to unearth the knowledge they need from multiple sources. They develop the ability to make clear logical arguments, and deal with complex ethical issues. Through self-initiated activities, they pick up the basics; as they direct their lives, they take responsibility for outcomes, set priorities, allocate resources, and work with others in a vibrant community.

Trust and respect are the keys to the school’s success. Students enjoy total intellectual freedom, and unfettered interaction with other students and adults. Through being responsible for themselves and for the school’s operation, they gain the internal resources needed to lead effective lives.

Sudbury Valley School was founded in 1968. Located in an old stone mansion and a converted barn on the mid-nineteenth century Bowditch estate, the ten acre campus adjoins extensive conservation lands.



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[psy]

Ok, Whooter, but it's not a program.  What does this have to do with the troubled teen industry?  Are you implying you woud like this model applied to programs?  If so, by most definitions here, they would no longer be considered programs at all, but rather "boarding schools".  I see little to no "emotional growth" content or implications that students have problems prior to admission.  Furthermore, if the website is correct, the student body is essentially self-governed.  There seems to be a lot less control over the student population than most schools.

[Antigen]

I know about the Sudburry School. I'm a big fan of John Taylor Gatto. The Sudburry School is 100%v VOLUNTARY! That's the diff. Kids land up there who's parents are worried about their well-being. But these parents trust their kids. And that's at least half of what everybody needs.

Look, Whooter, you're an impressive spin-meister. Hat's off. You might have 3 or more chords, but you don't have the truth.

[Whooter]

I have been to the Sudbury School a few times and wish I had placed my children there when they were younger.  I wish I had known about the place.  Yes, the school is 100% Voluntary and the kids come home at the end of the day.  The place is loaded with books and teachers, but if the child wants to sit on the front porch and play guitar all day that’s his privilege.   The kids explore activities and find things they are interested in and teachers help them to learn how to learn things themselves.  There is no structured class rooms.   Sort of like Unschooling for those families where both parents need to work.

I spoke to a family who told me how the place transformed their family and taught them to trust the childs instincts and allow the child to find his/her own path.  A big key to this is that there is a learning curve for the parents also.  This is very difficult for any parent to do no matter how open minded they are.  The kids are great.  Some kids learn to love reading because of their surroundings others learn to write music.  Some spend the day writing in a journal that they keep.

If a family places their children in a school like this at an early age they learn that the child can go through some tough times and work through it themselves.  They can smoke pot behind the Yum-Yum tree without it leading to harder drugs.  They can spend 3 days playing guitar and 2 days reading or working on a project and still turn out okay.  If the kids decide they want to go to college then they are prepared at their own place.  Because kids mature at a different pace some kids graduate at 16 and other at age 20.

If we all got a “Do over” I would chose this school or homeschool my kids.

[blombrowski]

This strikes me as a twilight zone conversation.  The Sudbury model is as much of a polar opposite approach to schooling as one could get from a "program".  In fact, I'm kind of curious what are the common threads other than the fact that these are private schools that tend to serve youth from a certain socioeconomic strata, and have minimal government interference.

[Whooter]

This strikes me as a twilight zone conversation.  The Sudbury model is as much of a polar opposite approach to schooling as one could get from a "program".  In fact, I'm kind of curious what are the common threads other than the fact that these are private schools that tend to serve youth from a certain socioeconomic strata, and have minimal government interference.

The topic is misleading, I guess.  I choose it because I didnt want to restrict the discussion to just the Sudbury school but rather the model of self government and a model without structure and the effects it would have on the TTI.

As I was talking to some people who had their children in Sudbury school it occurred to us that there would be very little use for progams if all kids were schooled in this fashion.  Parents would learn to trust that their kids will eventually find their way in life and hold their breath and get involved more during the childs up and down periods versus taking over.  Kids would be in more control of their own lives and therefore would take more of an interest in the direction they are heading.  If kids have no control over their choice of study or hours of study then they will naturally not take an interest in it because it is some else's idea and someone else's schedule.  But if you give them the remote control they naturally get involved.



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[BuzzKill]

I know about the Sudburry School. I'm a big fan of John Taylor Gatto. The Sudburry School is 100%v VOLUNTARY! That's the diff. Kids land up there who's parents are worried about their well-being. But these parents trust their kids. And that's at least half of what everybody needs.

Look, Whooter, you're an impressive spin-meister. Hat's off. You might have 3 or more chords, but you don't have the truth.

I read Gatto's book Dumbing us Down on your recommendation. I found it validating and thought provoking. I wish it were more widely read.
I had intended to read his History of Education but it had slipped my mind. I'm glad for this reminder. Parents need to understand that schools today serve many functions - Its a mistake to assume that educating their kids is the primary one - and that those functions taking precedence are often detrimental to a good education.

[heretik]

Ok, Whooter, but it's not a program.  What does this have to do with the troubled teen industry?  Are you implying you woud like this model applied to programs?  If so, by most definitions here, they would no longer be considered programs at all, but rather "boarding schools".  I see little to no "emotional growth" content or implications that students have problems prior to admission.  Furthermore, if the website is correct, the student body is essentially self-governed.  There seems to be a lot less control over the student population than most schools.

This would be our answer for the next generation of students who can't fit the mold. Whatever a mold is and where is the fit?
This is awesome. I had heard rumbling about this school but had never read it through.
Thanks.

[Oz girl]

This place looks as educationally flaky as a program. It just doesnt contain the same emotional abuse and other nonsense. So sure if I had a gun to my head and was given the choice between this place or a program then I would go down this road. But this place does not guarantee a kid will come out learning anything.
For instance if a kid wants to play an instrument they just pick it up. If they get bored or find it too hard that is OK because at 5 they are the master of their own destiny. Anybody who has learnt any kind of music knows that it is difficult, requires instruction and regular practice. While some people have a natural inclination they still need to work at it and to receive structured coaching.
  I also dont know of a university anywhere that has no measurement at all of effort and knowledge. Some are definitely more democratic than others and some respected places like evergreen state have a more individualistic outlook but still do require students to achieve specific benchmarks in order to earn a degree.
I have read gatto and he seems to forget that adults have a duty to prepare children for the world and culture that they live in. This means being fully equipped to work, study and socialise within it. if the kid reaches maturity and then chooses to reject such a culture for political, ideological or religious reasons then this is their right. But at least it wont be because they dont know how to do it. I am not saying that the educational system is perfect but sending kids to a "party" every day as described on this school's website is not education. Its hippy nonsense.  :seg:

[Botched Programming]

By the description of this school it makes it real similar to Military Academy in the sense that it is voluntary, however Military Academy actully does a fantastic job in education.. Take Culver Academies, Wish I could have gone there instead of Straight... But again these places are not programs...

http://home.culver.org/

[Oz girl]

I am a little surprised that military school never became a thing here as there is certainly a macho edge to some aspects of australian culture.  I am not sure I am sold on the idea as it seems a little overly structured and disciplined. But then many australians who have been educated by jesuits say it comes close. There is something creepy about children dressed up as baby soldiers that I just dont like. particularly if they are not even in their teens. But as you say it is consensual and looks harmless enough. At least military school does not use a cocktail party sort of model for education.

Some older Americans tell me that military school used to be where badly behaved boys were sent. Bill Brysons biography of his childhood mentions his father frequently threatening it when he misbehaved. But it appears that this has changed and they only take kids who are keen to go. Did anyone get sent to military school to "shape up" behavior wise? If so was it just like a slightly stricter boarding school or more like a punitive bootcamp?

[Whooter]

For instance if a kid wants to play an instrument they just pick it up. If they get bored or find it too hard that is OK because at 5 they are the master of their own destiny. Anybody who has learnt any kind of music knows that it is difficult, requires instruction and regular practice. While some people have a natural inclination they still need to work at it and to receive structured coaching.

If they get bored with the instrument then they move on to something else.  The important thing is that the kids are exposed to many different instruments.  If they take a liking to it then they can pursue it.  There are many teachers there who are well trained to teach the kids.  

Humans are natural learners and are curious.  When I went to school we would read US History and took a test that asked what year George Washington crossed the Delaware, Who was the 4 th President etc.  It is not important that we remember this information.  What they were testing is to see if we were able to read and comprehend what we read and how good we were at it.  They could have just as easily taught us the 1970 Ford Mustang Maintenance manual and tested us on that.  Having kids choose their direction in life based on their interests is very natural.  Kids are still able to get into very good colleges if that is their goal.



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[Oz girl]

I dont think most kids would pursue it if it got too hard without the stucture of a formal lesson which includes a required practice time. Also most people are not genius enough to properly teach themselves the correct technique to do something properly without some level of formal coaching. The other thing this model fails to take into account is that kids left to their own devices are not always little angels. Often bullying is at its worst when no adults intervene. Look at Lord of the Flies.

[Botched Programming]

I am a little surprised that military school never became a thing here as there is certainly a macho edge to some aspects of australian culture.  I am not sure I am sold on the idea as it seems a little overly structured and disciplined. But then many australians who have been educated by jesuits say it comes close. There is something creepy about children dressed up as baby soldiers that I just dont like. particularly if they are not even in their teens. But as you say it is consensual and looks harmless enough. At least military school does not use a cocktail party sort of model for education.

Some older Americans tell me that military school used to be where badly behaved boys were sent. Bill Brysons biography of his childhood mentions his father frequently threatening it when he misbehaved. But it appears that this has changed and they only take kids who are keen to go. Did anyone get sent to military school to "shape up" behavior wise? If so was it just like a slightly stricter boarding school or more like a punitive bootcamp?

This is why I brought Military academies up... In the years way passed by it was a threat to most kids with disiplanary problems and parents would send their troubled teen to the in hopes for a change to their behavior, but however boarding schools and military academies have their failures as well.. They only paint a picture that would help convince parents that they were making the right choice by sending their child to their institution. You seldom ever get to hear about the failures that go on there.

Typically when a child goes to a boarding school or military academy nowdays they are all geared up and want to go to these place which incites that this is a voluntary entollment. But when it comes down to being sent into a program the child does not have any say so in the matter.

When a child is put into a program all rights are stripped, this include educationally as well. From my own experience I was denied the ability to go to school or work until I reached a certain "Phase or Level". From day 1 in Boarding schools and Military academies they are placed in classes to further their educational development. As well as when programs think you are not in touch with your "PROGRAM" they will strip the child's ability to go to school and be put on a phase where all they can do is go to group sessions. Tell me how this can be considered theraputic and how it gears them towards adult life in a positive manner.

I appologize if I got off of the topic, however I was attempting to show the differences between programs and schools.

[Anne Bonney]

Ok, Whooter, but it's not a program.  What does this have to do with the troubled teen industry?  Are you implying you woud like this model applied to programs?  If so, by most definitions here, they would no longer be considered programs at all, but rather "boarding schools".  I see little to no "emotional growth" content or implications that students have problems prior to admission.  Furthermore, if the website is correct, the student body is essentially self-governed.  There seems to be a lot less control over the student population than most schools.

Exactly!  What the hell has all this promotion and defense of places like Aspen, WWASPS etc. for all these years been about?