confused...

[confusedbeyondbelief]

My brother NEEDS a program like this. In the last year my father and 17 year old brother have died, a year apart, in two separate accidents.

My 17 year old brother is out of control, a drop out, acting violently, and completely beyond the control of my mother. Aspen seems like it has as many good stories as bad stories. Will he be hurt if he is sent there? They recommended Island View in Utah. I don't want to hurt him, but he needs a future and our family isn't healthy enough right now to help him. Does anyone know any places that AREN'T accused of abuse and torture?

[Whooter]

My brother NEEDS a program like this. In the last year my father and 17 year old brother have died, a year apart, in two separate accidents.

My 17 year old brother is out of control, a drop out, acting violently, and completely beyond the control of my mother. Aspen seems like it has as many good stories as bad stories. Will he be hurt if he is sent there? They recommended Island View in Utah. I don't want to hurt him, but he needs a future and our family isn't healthy enough right now to help him. Does anyone know any places that AREN'T accused of abuse and torture?

You shouldn't just jump to finding a program for your brother  there are many steps that precede this decision and many options that could be effective right in your back yard.  I would suggest you try to get him to see a therapist locally first so that someone can evaluate him or have him evaluated by a team at a local hospital.  There are many different types of programs out there. Many specialize in specific problems suited to the individual needs of the child.  There are also many bad programs so you need to do your homework before you get to the point where your brother may need to be placed in one.



...

[Anne Bonney]

My brother NEEDS a program like this. In the last year my father and 17 year old brother have died, a year apart, in two separate accidents.

My 17 year old brother is out of control, a drop out, acting violently, and completely beyond the control of my mother. Aspen seems like it has as many good stories as bad stories. Will he be hurt if he is sent there? They recommended Island View in Utah. I don't want to hurt him, but he needs a future and our family isn't healthy enough right now to help him. Does anyone know any places that AREN'T accused of abuse and torture?

No, not of these RTCs or TBS places.  I honestly don't.  Anything that uses the LGAT-style, break 'em down to build 'em up bullshit is dangerous.  I'm sorry you're having a hard time and understand what you're going thru (I'm a parent of a now grown child who went thru her share of 'troubles' and I was told to send her away...I didn't) but sometimes ya gotta let 'em go so they can learn.  If you've given him opportunities to pull himself out and he hasn't chosen to, you can't force him to without doing even more damage to him in the process.  Losing two close family members is bound to effect anyone.  Putting him in one of these places, IMO, is going to do much more harm than good.

Primum non nocere.

[confusedbeyondbelief]

You shouldn't just jump to finding a program for your brother there are many steps that precede this decision and many options that could be effective right in your back yard. I would suggest you try to get him to see a therapist locally first so that someone can evaluate him or have him evaluated by a team at a local hospital. There are many different types of programs out there. Many specialize in specific problems suited to the individual needs of the child. There are also many bad programs so you need to do your homework before you get to the point where your brother may need to be placed in one.

We're not jumping. He refuses to see any therapists, refuses to come home with any amount of regularity, refuses to talk to anyone. He is being supported by a group of friends who will harbor him and hide him despite our calling the police on the friends and their families numerous times. He has been evaluated by doctor's who acknowledge that his impulse control behavior is out of control and that he has violent outbursts and is closed off emotionally. He needs help and we can't give it to him. I feel every day that by keeping him in our home and letting the cycle of abuse continue that we are hurting him more then helping him, and giving him time in a place where he would get therapy and work through these issues with people who aren't in a state of crisis is the only answer.

What do you do when someone you love who you are absolutely incapable of controlling physically, who has not changed, but in fact deteriorated their behavior despite talking, doctor appointments, police interventions, who lies, manipulates, actively tries to steal money...what do you do with that child when you can't control them? When their parent is immobilized by the death of her other son?

[psy]

Look.  Your brother may have issues.  You'd know that better than we would, being the sibling.  That being said, you should listen to those who have been in programs and will tell you that these places don't help.  Programs provide dramatic temporary results, yes, but with the side effect of lifelong damage.  You'll see lots of marketing out there saying "the program saved my son's life" or even "the program saved my life".  It's marketing, nothing more, and should be treated with skepticism as such.  Talk to those kids several years later and see what they say then. You see, after a while, the bizarre nature of a program becomes normal and you come to believe that they're helping you and you need them even when you don't and all they're doing is fooling around with new-age quackery borrowed from non-professional therapy cults.

This sounds cliché but if you want your brother to change, you're going to have to convince him to change.  Sure you can try and force it with a program but believe me, once the force is removed, he'll bounce back harder and you'll lose him forever then...  and that's if he ever forgives you.  There is a reason why there has never been peer reviewed studies on the effectiveness of residential treatment programs.  People mature and grow up over time.  Sure it's scary for the family but you should't make decisions out of fear.  If a therapist is recommending a program, find a new one.  Demand your brother attend therapy but let him choose the therapist, one he trust and can speak to. Obviously there is stuff going on (perhaps related to the death of your other brother) and if he's not talking to you about it, it's important he find somebody he can trust to speak about whatever is causing this upset.  Yes, just talking about things can help and there are *many* local alternatives to programs that can help.  Listen to Anne.  She's had kids. They grew up.  They turned out fine.

[Whooter]

You shouldn't just jump to finding a program for your brother there are many steps that precede this decision and many options that could be effective right in your back yard. I would suggest you try to get him to see a therapist locally first so that someone can evaluate him or have him evaluated by a team at a local hospital. There are many different types of programs out there. Many specialize in specific problems suited to the individual needs of the child. There are also many bad programs so you need to do your homework before you get to the point where your brother may need to be placed in one.

We're not jumping. He refuses to see any therapists, refuses to come home with any amount of regularity, refuses to talk to anyone. He is being supported by a group of friends who will harbor him and hide him despite our calling the police on the friends and their families numerous times. He has been evaluated by doctor's who acknowledge that his impulse control behavior is out of control and that he has violent outbursts and is closed off emotionally. He needs help and we can't give it to him. I feel every day that by keeping him in our home and letting the cycle of abuse continue that we are hurting him more then helping him, and giving him time in a place where he would get therapy and work through these issues with people who aren't in a state of crisis is the only answer.

What do you do when someone you love who you are absolutely incapable of controlling physically, who has not changed, but in fact deteriorated their behavior despite talking, doctor appointments, police interventions, who lies, manipulates, actively tries to steal money...what do you do with that child when you can't control them? When their parent is immobilized by the death of her other son?

I am sort of the "odd man out" here on fornits.  Most people dont agree with me because I tend to take a more balanced view and believe that all options should be left open vs others who preach that "all" programs are evil.  There are many abusive programs but there are many good programs also.  From the information we have there is no way we could recommend a program for your brother to attend or even determine if a program would be appropriate for him.  
The first step is to get him evaluated by a local psych hospital.  They can perform an evaluation which will take 3 to 5 days and most insurance companies cover the cost if recommended by a physician.

These evaluations will determine the path your brother should take....i.e medication, therapy, treatment program etc.  They will be able to determine how immediate the intervention should be and how at-risk your brother is.

From my experience I dont see another viable next step other than this.  He obviously needs help and someone is going to have to step in and insist he gets it.



...

[Pile of Dead Kids]

If he's 17 it should be a simple matter of his friends hiding him long enough until he reaches the age of majority. All that's left is to find him and warn him what you're planning to do.

[Anne Bonney]

I am sort of the "odd man out" here on fornits.  Most people dont agree with me because I tend to take a more balanced view and believe that all options should be left open vs others who preach that "all" programs are evil.

Stop it.  We don't agree with you because of many, MANY things.  A balanced view isn't one of them.


 

There are many abusive programs but there are many good programs also.

@ Confused - Anything that uses any form of LGAT (Large Group Awareness Training) or 'attack/confrontation therapy' or 'positive peer pressure' culture is pretty much abusive by nature.  They either severely restrict and monitor communication or don't allow it at all, until the child has been sufficiently indoctrinated (as Psy explained... after a while, the bizarre nature of a program becomes normal and you come to believe that they're helping you and you need them even when you don't and all they're doing is fooling around with new-age quackery borrowed from non-professional therapy cults.).  They theory behind this crap is to 'break the child down, so they can rebuild them'.  They first have to "break" that child and that always does damage, sometimes permanent.  Most of us who have gone thru these places have ended up being diagnosed with PTSD as a direct result of what was done to us in them.  

When you're as scared as parents and siblings can be, by the behavior of your loved one....it's easy to fall for the glossy brochures that promise these miraculous changes and show pretty pictures of happy, healthy kids.  That's so often not the reality, but the family is so desperate that they believe it.  Even after the kid gets in, if they start reporting to their family that they're being abused, the family has already been conditioned and prepared by the staff to not believe the child.  The child ends up having absolutely no recourse at all.  They're completely separated and isolated from the outside world, partly for this purpose and partly to ensure that the ONLY information they receive is pre-screened by the staff.  They have no touchstone to the outside world to be able to even gauge whether or not what's happening to them is right.

Forcing a kid to change because we're scared ends up having the opposite effect that we want.  I've both been thru one of the abusive programs as a child and raised two now grown children.  As I said earlier, one of them scared the living hell out of me and displayed many of the same "symptoms" that you've written about up there.  The grandparents tried to force me to enter her in a program, but I refused.  It had some short term consequences for my child (which she needed to experience and wouldn't have if we had tried to "rescue" her), myself and my husband but in the long term, she learned for herself that the way she was behaving was dangerous and actually came to me and a couple of my friends when she realized she needed some help.  It was a long couple of years for me......REALLY long and truly frightening, but I knew from experience that programs only exacerbate any problems that are already there and can create new ones that weren't (PTSD).

I really wish you luck with this and if you'd like to talk further, privately about it....send me a PM thru this board and I'll respond.

[Froderik]

Gimme the beat, boys, and free my soul..

I wanna get dropped in your toilet bowl and flushed away..

[Dysfunction Junction]

Most people dont agree with me because

I fabricated a son

That is true, Whooter.  But that's only one of the reasons.

Confused, be careful when looking into these programs.  You will meet (actually already have met) people here who will try to convince you that the programs they promote are safe and effective, but they aren't.  Keep in mind that people who represent programs do it for the money, not to help kids.

How long until this boy's 18th birthday?  At that point none of this will matter.  Until then you could try to get him to seek help on his own, but trying to force someone to "change" using proven-to-be-dangerous psychological techniques and/or extreme behavior modification rooted in punishment just isn't going to work or help.  It's a non-starter from a mental hygiene perspective.

[BuzzKill]

Ex-Program parent speaking: Don't do it. It Will do more harm than good.

Tell your mom to file a beyond control petition with the court. This will help protect her from possible legal consequences of not controlling her son - such as charges for not having him in school; or fines for graffiti or shop-lifting. It will also get him before a Juvenile judge and get him a social worker. This might help a lot of the Social Worker is good at the job and if the judge isn't an ass.  Sometimes just having a judge say to a kid you will attend therapy or else is of great help. The Social worker can help find a good therapy program in your community.

If he is running away and staying with friends - and you know who they are - this is far better than not knowing where he is - even tho I know very well how angry this can make you feel towards those who seem to be encouraging his behavior. You can't keep him home, so let him go stay in whatever grungy shit hole he has he can take shelter in.

If he shows up hungry feed him - give him a jar of peanut butter and a loaf of bread and a jug of milk if he wants money for food. Do not give him cash. If he is sick take him to the doctor. Buy his anti-biotics if he needs them. Do not give him cash. While he is acting like this lock up the things of value in the home such as your mom's jewelry or cameras. If he is arrested, get him an attorney to protect him from being rail-roaded but don't insist he escape with no consequence of consequence.

Give him the number of the closest YMCA's shelter house for runaways. They can be very helpful.

Keep him covered in prayer. Ask for peace and patience for everyone else.

Wait. In time, the chances are good he will turn tings around completely.

[Anne Bonney]

Ex-Program parent speaking: Don't do it. It Will do more harm than good.

Tell your mom to file a beyond control petition with the court. This will help protect her from possible legal consequences of not controlling her son - such as charges for not having him in school; or fines for graffiti or shop-lifting. It will also get him before a Juvenile judge and get him a social worker. This might help a lot of the Social Worker is good at the job and if the judge isn't an ass.  Sometimes just having a judge say to a kid you will attend therapy or else is of great help. The Social worker can help find a good therapy program in your community.

If he is running away and staying with friends - and you know who they are - this is far better than not knowing where he is - even tho I know very well how angry this can make you feel towards those who seem to be encouraging his behavior. You can't keep him home, so let him go stay in whatever grungy shit hole he has he can take shelter in.

If he shows up hungry feed him - give him a jar of peanut butter and a loaf of bread and a jug of milk if he wants money for food. Do not give him cash. If he is sick take him to the doctor. Buy his anti-biotics if he needs them. Do not give him cash. While he is acting like this lock up the things of value in the home such as your mom's jewelry or cameras. If he is arrested, get him an attorney to protect him from being rail-roaded but don't insist he escape with no consequence of consequence.

Give him the number of the closest YMCA's shelter house for runaways. They can be very helpful.

Keep him covered in prayer. Ask for peace and patience for everyone else.

Wait. In time, the chances are good he will turn tings around completely.

Excellent point Buzz!  Don't completely shut him out.  That doesn't mean you have to tolerate behaviors that aren't compatible with your own beliefs, but don't cut him totally out.  Buzz gives some great examples.  No cash.....but food, medical care (if needed) and just knowing he can call home if things get too crazy even for his tastes will go a loooooooooooooong way.  First, you're not doing him any harm, as I believe programs will.  Second, he's suffering the natural consequences of his own behaviors (something that is crucial for development and that would be denied him in a program).  Third, he's got the security of knowing that if he wants to clean up his act (which is really the only way he will.  At least in any way that's meaningful), you've got his back.  Fourth, his trust in you guys as a family won't be broken, as it most definitely will if he's shipped off.

There are local resources out there.  No, they're not "the" answer but there isn't one.  When they reach an age when they start to think for themselves and start breaking away from the parents PsOV, it's scary as hell to let them go and learn for themselves, but as I said.....ultimately, it's the only way he'll learn.

[Che Gookin]

Before this turns into a flamewar I'm just going to say that I hope things work out for your brother, you, and your family in the long run. Good luck to your brother and you. I know you think you are doing the right thing, maybe you are doing the right thing, but the crucially important thing is to remember that your brother is 17. That's old enough for him to screw up his life on his own.

Let him do just that and follow buzzkill's advice. He'll either survive and figure things out or he won't. The choice is his and his alone to make, he's old enough to make that choice.

Again, good luck.

[DannyB II]

Confused, this is your brother and it is hard to stand by and watch someone you love hurt themselves and maybe others. Hurting himself will be his problem to sort out and hurting others will be sorted out for him (if you know what I mean).
The YMCA, Salvation Army, Homeless Shelters, Churches ect....have info on assistance and shelter. Whether he needs treatment or not is not something actually anyone can decide here on this board nor do we have the qualifications.
There are a few educated members that are a part of this web site hopefully they have or will be contacting you through emails, to talk more at length of the possibilities to assist your brother.
I would try and reach out to these members, Buzz came forward with great info and there are more.
Trying to discuss this in the open like you have does not always prove to be the most effective way. Members here forget what the purpose of this thread was and begin to squabble amongst themselves.
Good luck and if you want to yak, email me.