Can people be forced to change?

[Whooter]

As a recap.  We have demonstrated in this thread that people can be forced to change and the change can be permanent especially if the change is eventually embraced.  There are several ways to accomplish this.  Some are attained utilizing abusive methods and others are not.



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...but, most importantly, it is not advisable to force change upon people.

I agree,  It is best to ask the individual to modify their behavior themselves and give them the appropriate time to get it done.



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[Shadyacres]

As a recap.  We have demonstrated in this thread that people can be forced to change and the change can be permanent especially if the change is eventually embraced.  There are several ways to accomplish this.  Some are attained utilizing abusive methods and others are not.



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What?!?  We have?  When?  People can be forced to COMPLY, that is a bit different.  And what gives anyone the right to tell a developing teen what kind of person to be?  It is up to the teen to decide that, the best we can do is educate them and encourage (not force) them to make good decisions. These programs are overkill, the change they are trying to induce is not worth the damage they inflict to the psyche of the child.  The child might eventually decide to stop skipping school, or stop smoking pot.  They can't just stop the program, once they are there they are trapped.  And there is no way out except  COMPLY!  OBEY! for months and months.

[Whooter]

As a recap.  We have demonstrated in this thread that people can be forced to change and the change can be permanent especially if the change is eventually embraced.  There are several ways to accomplish this.  Some are attained utilizing abusive methods and others are not.



...

What?!?  We have?  When?  People can be forced to COMPLY, that is a bit different.  And what gives anyone the right to tell a developing teen what kind of person to be?  It is up to the teen to decide that, the best we can do is educate them and encourage (not force) them to make good decisions. These programs are overkill, the change they are trying to induce is not worth the damage they inflict to the psyche of the child.  The child might eventually decide to stop skipping school, or stop smoking pot.  They can't just stop the program, once they are there they are trapped.  And there is no way out except  COMPLY!  OBEY! for months and months.

The question was "Can people be forced to change"  This doesnt specify a program or a therapists office or at home.  Its a general question.

We outlined that people can be forced to change against their will in abusive ways and they can also be forced to change using non abusive methods.

A child can be told they will start making their bed in the morning.  The child may resist and the parent may enforce this with having the child stay in after school. Eventually the child automatically makes his bed each morning without being asked.

On the other hand a child could be threatened and beaten and burned with cigarettes to the point where the child complies and finally starts cleaning their room each morning.



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[Whooter]

A couple of other examples:

A child who enters a program may and be forced to go to school 5 days a week against their will.  They may be forced to read.  Over time the child may pick up a book and read it on their own and look forward to learning each week.

Another example is the child may be forced to see a therapist each week and may resist at first but eventually the child may find they are benefitting from the therapists visits and start to look forward to going and start attending without asking.



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[Son Of Serbia]

A couple of other examples:

A child who enters a program may and be forced to go to school 5 days a week against their will.  They may be forced to read.  Over time the child may pick up a book and read it on their own and look forward to learning each week.

Another example is the child may be forced to see a therapist each week and may resist at first but eventually the child may find they are benefitting from the therapists visits and start to look forward to going and start attending without asking.



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 ::deadhorse::

Whooter - you are really grasping at straws here, and you appear quite desperate at that.
It was never demonstrated on this thread that people can be forced to change.  Compliance can be forced, but change (true change) can only come about when the individual in question decides for themselves that they want to change.

None of the examples you've given demonstrate forced change, instead they show where compliance is forced only.  A child who likes their therapist and decides that they want to cooperate and try to change - still has made their own decision, regardless of whether or not
they were forced into seeing the therapist in the first place.  Conversley, a child who hates their therapist will continue to resist, or perhaps will tell the therapist what they think the therapist wants to hear - in order to give the appearance that they are changing (presumably in hopes of illustrating that therapy is no longer necessary).  Big difference there - Whooter.

Lying about what others have agreed upon, and drawing false conclusions from the
discussion at hand, in order to add non-existent support to your own warped views
doesn't help your positionn at all Whooter.  All it does is expose you for the complete fraud that you are - Mr. Reuben.

[Whooter]

Whooter - you are really grasping at straws here, and you appear quite desperate at that.
It was never demonstrated on this thread that people can be forced to change.  Compliance can be forced, but change (true change) can only come about when the individual in question decides for themselves that they want to change.

None of the examples you've given demonstrate forced change, instead they show where compliance is forced only.  A child who likes their therapist and decides that they want to cooperate and try to change - still has made their own decision, regardless of whether or not
they were forced into seeing the therapist in the first place.  Conversley, a child who hates their therapist will continue to resist, or perhaps will tell the therapist what they think the therapist wants to hear - in order to give the appearance that they are changing (presumably in hopes of illustrating that therapy is no longer necessary).  Big difference there - Whooter.

Lying about what others have agreed upon, and drawing false conclusions from the
discussion at hand, in order to add non-existent support to your own warped views
doesn't help your positionn at all Whooter.  All it does is expose you for the complete fraud that you are - Mr. Reuben.

This is just a discussion Serb, no need to get upset and start taking shots at me.  You made some good points.

Change is when the person embraces something new and takes it on to be their own.
Compliance is when the person is doing what he/she is told but doesn’t believe in it.  They do because they are forced.  But over time the person may see that what they have been forced to do is a better way to live… i.e.  make their bed in the morning, see a therapist, eating healthy meals, reading, going to school, wearing appropriate clothing. Dealing with anger in non aggressive ways  etc.  etc.

If like you said the child just resists and justs goes through the motions then they are just merely complying and as soon as the pressure is off they will go back to their old ways.  Like in your example where the child doesn’t connect with their therapist and hates him/her.

So you made some good points, Serbia,  where we can differentiate between change and compliance.
So if a child is forced to see a therapist and starts liking their therapist and starts to look forward to going each week and benefits from it then that is real change.  If a child forced to go to school and eventually looks forward to school or starts picking the healthier food choices on their own than that is change.
If on the other hand the child just goes through the motions so that they can make everyone happy then that is compliance and the child hasn’t learned anything.

So you can see that people can be forced to change in a non abusive manner.



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[Son Of Serbia]

Whooter - you are really grasping at straws here, and you appear quite desperate at that.
It was never demonstrated on this thread that people can be forced to change.  Compliance can be forced, but change (true change) can only come about when the individual in question decides for themselves that they want to change.

None of the examples you've given demonstrate forced change, instead they show where compliance is forced only.  A child who likes their therapist and decides that they want to cooperate and try to change - still has made their own decision, regardless of whether or not
they were forced into seeing the therapist in the first place.  Conversley, a child who hates their therapist will continue to resist, or perhaps will tell the therapist what they think the therapist wants to hear - in order to give the appearance that they are changing (presumably in hopes of illustrating that therapy is no longer necessary).  Big difference there - Whooter.

Lying about what others have agreed upon, and drawing false conclusions from the
discussion at hand, in order to add non-existent support to your own warped views
doesn't help your positionn at all Whooter.  All it does is expose you for the complete fraud that you are - Mr. Reuben.

This is just a discussion Serb, no need to get upset and start taking shots at me.  You made some good points.

Change is when the person embraces something new and takes it on to be their own.
Compliance is when the person is doing what he/she is told but doesn’t believe in it.  They do because they are forced.  But over time the person may see that what they have been forced to do is a better way to live… i.e.  make their bed in the morning, see a therapist, eating healthy meals, reading, going to school, wearing appropriate clothing. Dealing with anger in non aggressive ways  etc.  etc.

If like you said the child just resists and justs goes through the motions then they are just merely complying and as soon as the pressure is off they will go back to their old ways.  Like in your example where the child doesn’t connect with their therapist and hates him/her.

So you made some good points, Serbia,  where we can differentiate between change and compliance.
So if a child is forced to see a therapist and starts liking their therapist and starts to look forward to going each week and benefits from it then that is real change.  If a child forced to go to school and eventually looks forward to school or starts picking the healthier food choices on their own than that is change.
If on the other hand the child just goes through the motions so that they can make everyone happy then that is compliance and the child hasn’t learned anything.

So you can see that people can be forced to change in a non abusive manner.



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Mr. Reuben - I don't consider that stating the obvious, and pointing out the questionable & underhanded manner in which you've drawn your conclusions as "taking shots at you".
Do you really feel attacked by others telling the truth?  Well I guess when one lives a life
built upon dishonesty & deceit, then the truth can be quite scary.

Back to our "discussion" regarding change.  If a person sees that what they're being forced
to do is better for them and DECIDES to embrace these new ideas/ways and make them their
own - then they are still MAKING A CHOICE.  How do you "embrace something new and take
it to be your own" without CHOOSING to do so?  The answer is - you can't!

So you see Mr. Reuben - even when others attempt to force change on someone in
a non-abuse manner, true change does not occur unless the individual makes a conscious
decision & chooses to change themselves.   We do agree however that people
can be forced to comply, and there is a distinct difference between compliance & change.

[SUCK_IT]

As a recap.  We have demonstrated in this thread that people can be forced to change and the change can be permanent especially if the change is eventually embraced.  There are several ways to accomplish this.  Some are attained utilizing abusive methods and others are not.



...

What?!?  We have?  When?  People can be forced to COMPLY, that is a bit different.  And what gives anyone the right to tell a developing teen what kind of person to be?  It is up to the teen to decide that, the best we can do is educate them and encourage (not force) them to make good decisions. These programs are overkill, the change they are trying to induce is not worth the damage they inflict to the psyche of the child.  The child might eventually decide to stop skipping school, or stop smoking pot.  They can't just stop the program, once they are there they are trapped.  And there is no way out except  COMPLY!  OBEY! for months and months.

The question was "Can people be forced to change"  This doesnt specify a program or a therapists office or at home.  Its a general question.

We outlined that people can be forced to change against their will in abusive ways and they can also be forced to change using non abusive methods.

A child can be told they will start making their bed in the morning.  The child may resist and the parent may enforce this with having the child stay in after school. Eventually the child automatically makes his bed each morning without being asked.

On the other hand a child could be threatened and beaten and burned with cigarettes to the point where the child complies and finally starts cleaning their room each morning.



...

Once again I have to agree with Whooter here because he takes the most sensible approach in my view.  Of course kids can be forced to change in a program.  If they couldn't be forced to change why would there be programs where parents could send their kids to get their kids changed?  Now I never saw kid burned with cigarettes but threatening was pretty common and the staff rarely had to do what they threatened to do because the kid was already afraid from the threat.  If the regular threats didn't work well then you got put into the isolation cells or on work assignments depending on how much you resisted the change you had to make.  After a while you just give in and change into what your parents wanted.

[Son Of Serbia]

As a recap.  We have demonstrated in this thread that people can be forced to change and the change can be permanent especially if the change is eventually embraced.  There are several ways to accomplish this.  Some are attained utilizing abusive methods and others are not.



...

What?!?  We have?  When?  People can be forced to COMPLY, that is a bit different.  And what gives anyone the right to tell a developing teen what kind of person to be?  It is up to the teen to decide that, the best we can do is educate them and encourage (not force) them to make good decisions. These programs are overkill, the change they are trying to induce is not worth the damage they inflict to the psyche of the child.  The child might eventually decide to stop skipping school, or stop smoking pot.  They can't just stop the program, once they are there they are trapped.  And there is no way out except  COMPLY!  OBEY! for months and months.

The question was "Can people be forced to change"  This doesnt specify a program or a therapists office or at home.  Its a general question.

We outlined that people can be forced to change against their will in abusive ways and they can also be forced to change using non abusive methods.

A child can be told they will start making their bed in the morning.  The child may resist and the parent may enforce this with having the child stay in after school. Eventually the child automatically makes his bed each morning without being asked.

On the other hand a child could be threatened and beaten and burned with cigarettes to the point where the child complies and finally starts cleaning their room each morning.



...

Once again I have to agree with Whooter here because he takes the most sensible approach in my view.  Of course kids can be forced to change in a program.  If they couldn't be forced to change why would there be programs where parents could send their kids to get their kids changed?  Now I never saw kid burned with cigarettes but threatening was pretty common and the staff rarely had to do what they threatened to do because the kid was already afraid from the threat.  If the regular threats didn't work well then you got put into the isolation cells or on work assignments depending on how much you resisted the change you had to make.  After a while you just give in and change into what your parents wanted.

Once again: Compliance VS. Change - there is a huge difference between the two.
Programs exist because they sell parents on the idea that they can force their "troubled"
kids to change, but in reality they are forcing them to comply.  The majority of program parents can't distiguish the difference between the two, and they probably wouldn't care if they did.  If the end result is a timid, obedient child, who does whatever they're told without question, then most program parents couldn't give a rat's ass if their child is merely being compliant or truly has changed.

[Anne Bonney]

As a recap.  We have demonstrated in this thread that people can be forced to change and the change can be permanent especially if the change is eventually embraced.  There are several ways to accomplish this.  Some are attained utilizing abusive methods and others are not.

There it is again.  We.  Stop doing that.  Quite a few of us have asked you to stop.  What you've written above is your opinion.  State it that way instead of trying to make it seem like "we" have all reached some sort of consensus.

[SUCK_IT]

It's our opinion Anne.  Me, Danny and Whooter.  We're here to set the record straight about change.  It can be forced on a kid and the smart ones change right away.  If they don't then the program has to take other measures to make them act like their parents wanted and paid for.  I.E. "forced change" Anne.

[Anne Bonney]

I'd like to have the last word here - even if it is a bit off topic.

Anne, I just wanted to commend you for the maturity and restraint you've shown in
responding to the taunts of this immature, programmed, fucking whack-job, internet
tuff guy, DannyB II.  It takes a lot more patience than people realize.

And yes this is indeed a great thread! Thanks Anne.

Thanks, but he's really just like a little gnat that annoys the hell out of you.  Even the pro-program people see him for what he is......a barely literate, sad, angry and pathetic little man who is threatened by strong women and for some reason needs to find a guru to tell him how to live his life.  That New Warrior Training shit just cracks me up and tells me quite a bit about him.

/sorry for the threadjack, but wanted to respond to SOS.

[Shadyacres]

A couple of other examples:

A child who enters a program may and be forced to go to school 5 days a week against their will.  They may be forced to read.  Over time the child may pick up a book and read it on their own and look forward to learning each week.

Another example is the child may be forced to see a therapist each week and may resist at first but eventually the child may find they are benefitting from the therapists visits and start to look forward to going and start attending without asking.



...

Both of these examples are things that the program DEPRIVED me of.  I was kept out of school for five months (most of my sophomore year), and there were no reputable therapists (obviously).  Forced to read?  We were starved of any kind of intellectual stimulation at all, we would read cereal boxes because it was all we were allowed to read.  I think a better question would be; is it ethical to force someone to change into what WE think they should be?  And does this end justify ANY means?

[SUCK_IT]

Most kids weren't going to school anyway before the program.  Education is secondary in these schools.  First you have to get the kid to behave and no amount of schooling is going to force that change, only the program and staff can do that.  So why you're crying about not getting to do what you weren't doing anyway is bazaar.  The point is that the program exists to make the kid change into more of what their parents wanted in a son or daughter.  That's why they paid for the program in the first place, to force their kid to change.

[Anne Bonney]

Most kids weren't going to school anyway before the program.

Jeebus Christ on a crutch....that's exactly what "Dr." "Fr." Virgil Miller Cassian Newton said in his deposition.

 Education is secondary in these schools.

 

Well no shit.

The point is that the program exists to make the kid change into more of what their parents wanted in a son or daughter.  That's why they paid for the program in the first place, to force their kid to change.

Yep and that's wrong.  Our children are not supposed to be little versions of us.  They're supposed to grow into their own individual, with their own thoughts and points of view.  Programs create robotic little drones that have had their identities removed, which is why I find them so dangerous.  To interrupt the normal process of a teenager breaking away from their parents (it's gonna happen sometime) causes them to end up doing that at a time when that behavior truly is inappropriate.  Kids are gonna misbehave.  They're going to scare the living shit out of their parents.  It's a normal part of the process of growing up. Our job as parents is to help guide our kids into being who they want to be, not who we want them to be.